What does your axle hardware look like?
- Thread starter auraslip
- Start date
go on... i'm listening.
so what is the correct installation?
or which step(s) in the process r u drawing attention to?
so what is the correct installation?
or which step(s) in the process r u drawing attention to?
dogman dan
1 PW
I lost all my links to old threads when a hard drive died.
Hunt for my review on Ebikes-ca C washers for some info on correct washer fitting. (reviews sect, who knows how far back) Basicly, you want all of the washer and nut metal in full contact on a flat surface. The c washers fill the little cup in the typical quick release front forks. Often this cup leaves a void that the washer will bend into later, and then the nut has lost it's compression and is loose. Or it causes a spreading force, as the nut tries to fill that gap by opening the dropout wider.
It's different in the rear, but the same rule applies. Nothing crooked. So maybe you need to notch a washer or torque arm to get around a deraliur bolt instead of having a tilted washer.
Some motors have a very narrow shoulder on the axle. Ebikekit solved this by providing a thin inner washer that helps some, especially with alloy forks.
Hunt for my review on Ebikes-ca C washers for some info on correct washer fitting. (reviews sect, who knows how far back) Basicly, you want all of the washer and nut metal in full contact on a flat surface. The c washers fill the little cup in the typical quick release front forks. Often this cup leaves a void that the washer will bend into later, and then the nut has lost it's compression and is loose. Or it causes a spreading force, as the nut tries to fill that gap by opening the dropout wider.
It's different in the rear, but the same rule applies. Nothing crooked. So maybe you need to notch a washer or torque arm to get around a deraliur bolt instead of having a tilted washer.
Some motors have a very narrow shoulder on the axle. Ebikekit solved this by providing a thin inner washer that helps some, especially with alloy forks.
Also keep in mind (in addition to Dogman's input) that many of the "OEM" fasteners and washers out of China are made of less than adequate (i.e. "soft") steel that will not always retain proper torque specifications.
You can help avoid some of the problems associated with such "substandard" fasteners and washers by replacing them with higher grade and/or quality units (as found in many hardware stores). I might add that I've had very good luck with the "Allen" brand name when it comes to certain fasteners.
You can help avoid some of the problems associated with such "substandard" fasteners and washers by replacing them with higher grade and/or quality units (as found in many hardware stores). I might add that I've had very good luck with the "Allen" brand name when it comes to certain fasteners.
auraslip
10 MW
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Between the dropouts and the hub motor, you will need two washers. With out them, the freewheel will rub on the bike frame. Also the axle will dig into the drop outs, spreading them open. If you only use one washer, the pressure will cause it to deform. Sometimes you will need to spread the frame in order to get the hub motor and washers to fit.
A torque arm should be used for all setups, particularly those over 1000w. For setups higher than that, it might be worth your time to custom make your own torque arms.
Note* the pictured torque arm is for front motors. Are there torque arms designed for rear motors?
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My setup is like this, but is still coming loose! I can't stand it. I think that when I over tighten it, the inner washers deform. Do hardware stores sell the appropriate inner washers?
If the washers are deforming, it sounds like they are either not the right alloy of metals (steel/etc) or they are not hardened. I'm sure some hardware stores do have hardened washers that will work, but not all of them do. None of the ACE or TrueValue or HomeDepot or Lowes around my area of town have anything but regular cheap steel washers in this size, except for HD/Lowes that do have some stainless stuff in the right diameters but is way too thick to use, and I don't think they're hard enough, either.
FWIW, there are washers on some automotive stuff (like the ones on alternator and AC compressor pivot mount bolts) that are very hard and not too thick; might be able to file or grind them thinner and still work for this. I have some around here somewhere I saved off the Ford LTD parts car in teh driveway for that reason. Probably even more washers on there I can use that I haven't run across yet.
FWIW, there are washers on some automotive stuff (like the ones on alternator and AC compressor pivot mount bolts) that are very hard and not too thick; might be able to file or grind them thinner and still work for this. I have some around here somewhere I saved off the Ford LTD parts car in teh driveway for that reason. Probably even more washers on there I can use that I haven't run across yet.
docnjoj
1 GW
My local ACE has grade 8 hardware in SAE. This is harder than the Grade 8 metric. They also have lots of SS in SAE and a bit in metric. Our local NAPA has grade 5 in metric (labled as grade 8) up to 12 mm and some Grade 8 SAE.
otherDoc
Where did that little guy with the sunglasses come from. It should be an 8!???
otherDoc
Where did that little guy with the sunglasses come from. It should be an 8!???
Alan B
100 GW
Thanks for posting this thread. I've been looking for D washers. I got some of the 14mm Nord Locks washers for the outside between torque arm and the nut. How do folks feel about using those to maintain tension?
Also, the torque arms I have seem to need the toothed D washer to have the right frame spacing. I don't see those above??
Also, the torque arms I have seem to need the toothed D washer to have the right frame spacing. I don't see those above??
I pulled some regular washers off stuff on a car engine (mostly off the bracket bolts for things running off the belt). Most did not have quite enough inside hole diameter, so I dremelled them out a little bit (mm or two) to fit the axle. They were pretty thin (maybe 1mm to 1.5mm?), but hard steel that didn't deform from the bolts being tightened down over slotted holes, so I figured they would work well, and they did. Other washers with larger hole diameters on the same engine areas were much thicker, up to 3mm, and wouldn't have fit as spacers for my purpose, but might for yours.
Mostly the ones that were thin were on the pivot bolts of various brackets, and the thicker ones on the tensioning bolts.
Mostly the ones that were thin were on the pivot bolts of various brackets, and the thicker ones on the tensioning bolts.
Gordo
100 kW
Fastners of all types including Nord Locks
http://www.mcmaster.com/#
http://www.mcmaster.com/#washers/=bbonfz
http://www.mcmaster.com/#
http://www.mcmaster.com/#washers/=bbonfz
Alan B
100 GW
I bought some round ones before I realized that a lot of the support is from the "D" part of the area, so "D" washers are better.
I still have the round ones, available for cost + shipping. PM me if interested. Thin stainless.
I still have the round ones, available for cost + shipping. PM me if interested. Thin stainless.
I'm not quite sure what you want it for, then; if it's just a spacer then it doesnt' matter, AFAICT, although if the hole is axle-shaped instead of round it might as noted above give more squeeze against the motor side of the axle, from the fork, rather than just riding on the thin lip usually left on the axle outside of that (which is all the round ones can do).auraslip said:
If you're looking for torque washers (the only ones that would matter about "spinning", I think), with a tab that goes into the dropout slot, then it definitely needs to match the axle flats, but it also would have to be thick to do any good (several mm at minimum), which means it probably would be too thick to be a spacer in most of teh forks I've got (certainly so in any shock fork I have).
But if it's just a spacer you need, then any washer that fits the space provided should work. The ones I tried did for me. With some fork legs and dropouts, you might have to file one "side" flat (like the D washers), so it sits right and flat, but it wouldn't matter otherwise, I'd think. It can't spin while the axle nuts are tight, as compression between axle and fork leg will prevent that.
Alan B
100 GW
If your dropouts are aluminum a "D" washer inside to the motor axle will help spread out the forces from that narrow shoulder onto the aluminum. I don't have those on my setup, I suppose the shop didn't think they were needed. But I plan to add them when I change to the 6x10 9c hubmotor wheel.
If your dropouts are steel it is probably not needed.
The "D" washers with the tab are not very good at preventing spinout, a real torque arm would be better.
If your dropouts are steel it is probably not needed.
The "D" washers with the tab are not very good at preventing spinout, a real torque arm would be better.
auraslip
10 MW
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I need these....
Round ones won't work as well....
Ebikekit sells em for $10 > http://www.e-bikekit.com/shop/index.php?p=product&id=76&parent=3
They also sale these, but they look to thick. > http://www.e-bikekit.com/shop/index.php?p=product&id=50&parent=3
Kinda funny how the part they say are needed for safety reasons goes for more than 10 times the spacer washers. You'd think they'd give em away like condoms in freshman dorms. Prevent accidents
dogman dan
1 PW
The thin ones are for inside the dropout on front hubs. The thick ones are for spacing on the rear hubs.
To get my spacing right on disk brakes mounting a rear 9c, I ended up using both thick spacers, and to get it just right, also some regular round, thinner washers on the disk side. The D washer of course goes on first, against the flats of the axle. After that one, the ordinary washers can be used, since they bear on the d washer.
To get my spacing right on disk brakes mounting a rear 9c, I ended up using both thick spacers, and to get it just right, also some regular round, thinner washers on the disk side. The D washer of course goes on first, against the flats of the axle. After that one, the ordinary washers can be used, since they bear on the d washer.
torker
100 kW
Auraslip , You say yours is still coming loose? Is there a small recessed area on the dropout on the disc side? My D washers deformed a bit too but the bigger problem on mine seemed to be that recessed area. I ground a thin washer till it fit. It made the clamping a lot more even when tightening the nut. The washer is in place in this pic. I did not use the washer in my hand. Just a good flat washer on top of the one to fill the recess. Actually I take that back- no flat washer- my torque arm went on next, fitting flush to the outside of the dropout. Then a flatwasher.
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auraslip
10 MW
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Thanks guys. That might explain why the thin washers deformed on my main bike.
I actually need the washers for my new front wheel drive bike. I got a used hub that didn't come with the hardware. I'm afraid of the hub motor digging into the dropouts and spreading them.
I'm thinking of getting a quote for 1000 of the thin washers from one of those washer makers.
Disc spacing is a PITA the first few times you do it!
I actually need the washers for my new front wheel drive bike. I got a used hub that didn't come with the hardware. I'm afraid of the hub motor digging into the dropouts and spreading them.
I'm thinking of getting a quote for 1000 of the thin washers from one of those washer makers.
Disc spacing is a PITA the first few times you do it!
Alan B
100 GW
Round thin washers are off the shelf, but thin D washers are probably custom made.
dogman dan
1 PW
If you have the space on the axle shoulders, get the thick washers if cheaper, and hacksaw away enough axle to have the right space. 9c axle shoulders are pretty small, but on a steel fork you should be ok.
C washers from ebikes-ca for the QR cup, or grind your own out of ordinary torque washers.
C washers from ebikes-ca for the QR cup, or grind your own out of ordinary torque washers.
auraslip
10 MW
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It sounds a bit extreme, but it's probably the best course of action. I'm worried the thin washers will deform on their own, but their isn't enough room for the thick ones and/or the thin ones.
Jason from ebikekit.com just sent me a PM explaining why the thin washers cost what they do. Apparently they are the only retailer that sells them, and they have them custom made in small quantities which is quite $$$. They are a great company to include these in their kits..... just an extra cost for them to insure the safety of ebikers.
Alan B
100 GW
Where does one find the thick tabbed "D" washers? My new wheel didn't include them so I need a pair.
If you mean like the one held out in this pic:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=54873
then you don't need them if you have torque arms. They're really only good for low-torque/power setups, like my Fusin started out to be (before I went from 36V to 48V ). Past that point, the torque arm is gonna have to do the job, cuz that little tab on the washer wont (as I already found just with the Fusin).
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=54873
then you don't need them if you have torque arms. They're really only good for low-torque/power setups, like my Fusin started out to be (before I went from 36V to 48V
). Past that point, the torque arm is gonna have to do the job, cuz that little tab on the washer wont (as I already found just with the Fusin).
Alan B
100 GW
amberwolf said:If you mean like the one held out in this pic:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=54873
then you don't need them if you have torque arms. They're really only good for low-torque/power setups, like my Fusin started out to be (before I went from 36V to 48V
On my setup using Justin's torque arms, that "D" tab washer is a spacer that allows space for the torque strut. In terms of the tab, it is redundant as the torque arm really carries the load. Here you can see the torque arm and strut. The "D" tab washer is at the same level as the torque strut:
Here's what I plan to do on each side with the new 6x10 motor:
0. Motor axle with "D" flats and thin shoulders 15mm axle/14mm threads/10mm flats (Nine Continents)
1. Thin "D" washer (approx 2mm) (ebikekit.com InsideSafetyWashers)
- to spread load from thin axle shoulder onto the alloy dropouts
2. Flat aluminum alloy rear dropout (must be flat for full contact)
3. 1/8" thick "D" washer (tabbed or not) (ebikes.ca SpaceWasher14)
- torque strut is also at this level
- the tab is not important, this is a spacer, the torque arm and strut take the torque load)
- this does not have to be a "D" washer, but one is preferred
4. Torque arm 5mm (ebikes.ca TorqArmRev2)
5,6. NordLock (tm) washer pair (do NOT use any other washers with NordLocks, it will defeat the lock)(mcmaster.com 14mm)
- the materials on either side of the NordLock must be softer material than the lockwashers for them to work properly
7. Nut (came with wheel)
NOTE - I do not use the torque strut that comes with the torque arm. Instead I fabricate a new torque strut that has precisely sized and spaced holes for zero play. This strut goes from the end of the torque arm to an existing threaded hole in the dropout. In my case I don't have room for the torque strut nut so I thread one of the holes directly in the strut. I used 1/8" by 1/2" 6061 T6 for the struts, of course steel would also be fine. The stress here at one inch from the axle is a lot lower than it is in the arm at 7mm radius, so we can use aluminum for moderate performance hubmotors such as this. Steel would be indicated for higher performance hubmotors, or extreme current applications of this hubmotor.
NOTE - do NOT use flat washers adjacent to the NordLock lockwashers. These lockwashers must contact the nut on one side, and something that can not rotate on the other side, such as the torque arm, a "D" washer or the dropout.
The NordLock lockwasher pair is a special locking washer that is very effective at keeping the axle nuts tight. Since this is so critical for a hubmotor I felt it was worth using a somewhat special high quality locking solution. These lockwashers are not that expensive, but they are also not available at the hardware store. I ordered mine from McMaster Carr online. NordLock washers work by having ramps on the side facing each other, and teeth on the opposing side that cause the nut to tighten slightly as it is removed before releasing tension. This places the system in a "valley" so that nut rotation in either direction increases tension, and this prevents the nut from rotating. Essentially it is stuck in a notch. These are removable and re-installable for easy servicing without loss of locking functionality
