What will it take to make ebikes, More mainstream ?

[rumme]

I see things another way.

I think a big reason why ebikes are not as popular in the U.S., is because our society is largely out of shape/ overweight and downright spoiled. Most people would rather
drive to the store or post office { which may only be less then 10 miles away} in the extreme comfort of their air conditioned/ heated cars/trucks.

You also have to consider the cultural view on bicycles in the U.S. It's primarily viewed in this order: fitness > commuting > children's toy (mountain bikes) :lol:

"Doesn't it defeat the purpose?" or "It's cheating!" is a lot of what I hear from the non-commuting crowd.

The way I see it, specifically for the US, in order for e-bikes to become more mainstream, bicycles in general need to become more mainstream.

Hey sky, your thread about buying a turn key Chinese stealth ebike, persuaded me to jump into the arena. I currently have EYEBYESICKLE { a forum member/vendor} doing a complete build for me kinda based off your ebike, but with some higher end components , for less money then you had to pay. The build should be completed and in my hands no later then Aug 15th . I then plan on doing a complete review and upload numerous photos.

 

[arthurtuxedo]

I suspect another big reason people are reluctant is that it's been so long since most adults have been on a bike that they're scared to fall off and look stupid. The average person might be more receptive to a trike with a large cargo basket and a powerful motor than any flavor of ebike.

They'll only be receptive to a trike until they actually ride one. It's way easier to get upside down on a trike than on a bike. And the ride is much less comfortable once you exceed walking speeds, because the seat kicks sideways.

Promoting trikes to n00bs is a surefire way to make them permanently resistant to the idea of getting around by bike.

Ah OK that explains why they are not as common.

The same reason people won't ride bikes also applies to ebikes and in the US, the reasons not to for most people far, far outweigh the reasons to.

Why would you ride an ebike?
Its fun
It's cheaper than driving
It's quicker than drving
Ownership is cheaper than a car
It's better for the planet

Why wouldn't you?
The weather isn't nice enough
It's too far
I can't carry all my stuff, dogs and kids
I don't have a safe route
It's work
It takes longer than driving

Until owning and using a car becomes much more painful, either by much higher gas prices and more frustrating traffic jams, riding an ebike, even one you wouldn't have to pedal and you could buy cheaply, simply isn't attractive to most people. Cars are easy and convienient. If you want to be eco conscious, get an electric car. Having commuted and run errands on my bike for decades, you have to have a certain level of commitment to do it, it can be uncomfortable and inconvienient, and most people won't put up with it.

The thing is that a lot of these perceptions are false. People think that driving is much faster, cheaper, and more convenient than it actually is. If they actually realized how much their car was costing them, how much day-to-day baseline stress is caused by being stuck in traffic, and how much more pleasant it is to bike, they might not be so enamored with their cars.

By my quick back-of-the-envelop calculation, the opportunity cost of driving over the course of 50 years is about $815,000, which is more than most middle-class people have in their 401K's at retirement. Using a bike for transportation can more than double most people's after-tax disposable income and allow them to enjoy a lifestyle that is an entire socio-economic class above their income level. Even that is only half the story, since taxpayers spend vast sums every year maintaining infrastructure to allow almost everyone to drive to every destination. I understand that most people consider driving a luxury over other forms of transportation, but that's one hell of an expensive luxury!

 

[slacker]

my quick back-of-the-envelop calculation, the opportunity cost of driving over the course of 50 years is about $815,000 quoted by arthurtuxedo. as i have never paid more than 2000$ a year for car insurance times 50 years is 100,000. having never spending more than 100$ a month for gas at 50 years roughly 120,000. calculating what i have spent on repairs and maintenance 25000. grand total 245000$. long ways from 815000. do not know where or what you pulled your figures from. Hope you get your calculations more realistic.

 

[arthurtuxedo]

When I had my Honda Fit my monthly breakdown was like this:

$237 payment
$120 insurance
$100 gas
$100 miscellaneous (minor repairs, oil changes, parking tickets, break-ins, etc)
$200 lost income from not being able to rent out my parking space

That's $757 per month with a very economical car and no allowance for a down payment on the next one or depreciation.

The best selling passenger vehicle in the US is the Ford F-150, which costs a lot more than my Fit, gets far worse gas mileage, and is typically driven by someone who drives more miles than I did.

For my calculation I used a total cost of $1,000 / month as the average, knowing that many people spend far more than that and many spend less. If you invested $1,000 every month at an interest rate of 9% for 50 years you end up with an opportunity cost of roughly $815,000. Of course it might be less for some people and more for others, but I'd hazard that it's a pretty good guess as to the lifetime opportunity cost of driving for the average middle class American.

 

[Chalo]

Your point is made, but I don't know how you get a 9% return on a reasonably secure investment these days without being a rich bastard to start with.

Most people I know don't have $1000/month to spend on a car even if they wanted to. But they have cars, and they sacrifice a lot for their cars.

My thinking is that if you want to live in a worthwhile city, do real honest work, and not work your life away, you have to observe two rules:. No car, no kids. If you stick to those two simple rules, you can even be poor and have a good life anyway.

 

[ideate]

Merida eOne-Sixty 900E. Bikes like these are changing the mtb industry. Well designed and value will make ebikes mainstream.

 

[E-geezer]

The total cost of owning and using a car and owning and using an ebike comparison are the same as those using a bike, which has been promoted for decades. I'm not arguing that it isn't true, but only the smallest fraction of one percent of the population choose to use a bike over a car and I don't see that changing. There are plenty who are forced to, and obviously, they'd likely love an ebike if they had access to one, but based on the garbage bikes most are on, they don't have the resources.

Americans don't like being outside all that much, and would rather drive a car. Even when they are going somewhere so they can be outside.

 

[Henry111]

As I watch these big companies like BOSCH destroying an industry before it even gets off the ground (in the USA) by importing these bikes with 250 watt motors and pedelec systems (with no throttles) that were actually designed for the Asian and European markets and no dealers to service them, I just have to add my brief thoughts:
The e-bike business in the USA will grow when dealers start ignoring those companies and start building the bikes themselves. That is how I run my e-bike business out of my home here in Southern California. I sell about fifty bikes per year. Not a big deal, but I am happy and my customers are, too. Partly because they always know where they can come for service.
Import your batteries from a (Chinese) reliable supplier. It may take time to find one. As the saying goes, you may have to kiss some ugly frogs before...
The same for motor kits.
The same for bikes but from a USA supplier, if possible.
Keep it simple: No pedelecs, no mid-drives, no cruise controls and motors with a quick-release plug so that changing a flat tire is not a headache for your customers.
Unless you pay your assemblers $70.00 per bike to do your assembly work--as I do-- you can build a dam good bike with a direct drive 750W motor, 36V/14Ah lithium battery on a reliable frame for about $650 bucks.
The biggest problem for the e-bike industry is lack of service. When dealers build their own bikes, the customer will always know where they can take their bike to be serviced.
Last thought:
A representative with the Electric Bike Association (actually run by BOSCH) told me:
"Do not expect these big companies importing bikes to change their bike engineering just to cater to a market (meaning the USA) that is only peanuts, not even a spit in the ocean compared to the Asian and European markets, which is their main thrust.
So dealers need to do it themselves.

 

[SniperGaulois]

music videos with stealth bombers.

 

[wturber]

The total cost of owning and using a car and owning and using an ebike comparison are the same as those using a bike, which has been promoted for decades. I'm not arguing that it isn't true, but only the smallest fraction of one percent of the population choose to use a bike over a car and I don't see that changing. There are plenty who are forced to, and obviously, they'd likely love an ebike if they had access to one, but based on the garbage bikes most are on, they don't have the resources.

Americans don't like being outside all that much, and would rather drive a car. Even when they are going somewhere so they can be outside.

There is an ongoing shift in the automobile landscape and I can imagine that ebikes might fit into it very well. With Uber and the like, (and maybe driverless "taxis" aren't that far off?) it is becoming more and more viable to not have a car, or to have perhaps one less in your family/household.

The car cost thing always bothered me. That's why I've never bought a new car for myself and haven't had a car payment since around 1980. Insurance and gas is still fairly expensive though.

 

[skyungjae]

music videos with stealth bombers.

I'll be honest, that's exactly what got me into building my first e-bike almost 5 years ago.

This one to be specific:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m65ovR9N2VQ[/youtube]

 

[rumme]

:. No car, no kids. If you stick to those two simple rules, you can even be poor and have a good life anyway.

Wow , after 5 years on here, I agree with you on something.

Actually, no kids is the most important part. A car isn't that expensive if done properly. Ive had friends that make over $100,000 a year, and they were always broke. Ive only made 1/3rd of that per year and felt richer then they were. Money management is always a big key. Ive never bought a new car in my life, and never will.

 

[USAEBIKECO]

Sondors is a really shitty ebike. I've worked on them before. The battery is in the frame, what a dumb idea. It makes it very difficult to charge and swap out should it need to be replaced. Controller is low quality too.

 

[wturber]

A car isn't that expensive if done properly. Ive had friends that make over $100,000 a year, and they were always broke. Ive only made 1/3rd of that per year and felt richer then they were. Money management is always a big key. Ive never bought a new car in my life, and never will.

Yes. Done right, you can spend far less on reliable automobile transportation than most people do. I too have never owned a new car and haven't had a car loan since, I think, 1980.

 

[slacker]

having owned both a sondors fat and a thin the claim that having the battery in the frame is a bad idea is bull. having the weight of the batt down low is always a good idea. battery comes out of box in the frame for easy charging so obviously someone has no clue what they are talking about. JMO.

 

[Izits]

Having read through this entire thread, I find myself asking why? Why do we care if ebikes are mainstream? Ask yourself if it's because we want people to fulfill their desires better and be happier, or is it because we want to force our views on others? Wouldn't it be enough to let everyone choose the transportation that suits them best?

Some of the posts mention using force to make people change what they drive. That is the way of an oppressive society.
Other posts talk about making ebikes bikes better so people will choose to gravitate toward them. That's the way of a free and prosperous society.



This particularly perplexed me:

I think a big reason why ebikes are not as popular in the U.S., is because our society is largely out of shape/ overweight and downright spoiled.

We're spoiled? What, people should want to make their lives less convenient, less happy? You've got to be kidding me.

 

[wturber]

We're spoiled? What, people should want to make their lives less convenient, less happy? You've got to be kidding me.

He he. I built mine because I wanted to commute to work on a bike and the hills and distance combine to make that impractical. I can now enjoy a ride and get some moderate exercise while riding to work. Yes, I'm spoiled. And I have no problem with that. It would be nice if more people in the world could be similarly spoiled.

 

[Izits]

He he. ... I can now enjoy a ride and get some moderate exercise while riding to work. Yes, I'm spoiled. And I have no problem with that. It would be nice if more people in the world could be similarly spoiled.

You're saying being spoiled is good, and I agree. Rumme was saying people should stop being spoiled. He's asking for the opposite. In your case that would be asking you to stop riding your ebike.

 

[amberwolf]

I have a feeling the "spoiled" Rumme was referring to is that of the riding in large climate-controlled boxes that insulate the driver/passengers from the world around them and leave them with no need to pay attention to it, either. (even when not paying attention results in injury and death for them and others, but not necessarily responsibility for same).

 

[Izits]

I'm sure that's what Rumme was referring to. But the question still stands, why should anyone be expected to intentionally make themselves less spoiled, less comfortable and less happy than they are able? (Claiming there is more danger in going faster means nothing because that danger is already factored into people's selection of what transportation option makes them happier)

 

[rumme]

I'm sure that's what Rumme was referring to. But the question still stands, why should anyone be expected to intentionally make themselves less spoiled, less comfortable and less happy than they are able? (Claiming there is more danger in going faster means nothing because that danger is already factored into people's selection of what transportation option makes them happier)

Dude, taking a fking chill pill . You sound like a raving lunatic. I never enforced my opinion on anybody, for Gods sakes, its just a fkin chat forum.

Yes...most americans are spoiled, compared to people in other nations. I don't give a shit who rides a ebike or not , its just a useless discussion.

I sure hope you never attempt to join a debate/discussion about touchy subjects like religions or politics, you may "stroke out" .

 

[rumme]

He he. ... I can now enjoy a ride and get some moderate exercise while riding to work. Yes, I'm spoiled. And I have no problem with that. It would be nice if more people in the world could be similarly spoiled.

You're saying being spoiled is good, and I agree. Rumme was saying people should stop being spoiled. He's asking for the opposite. In your case that would be asking you to stop riding your ebike.

ROFL :lol: :lol:

Yes, that's what I'm doing..IM DEMANDING, EVERYONE ON EARTH ONLY RIDE EBIKES.

you hit the nail right on the head.

How am I gonna enforce my opinion unto everyone ? I will use my godlike powers .

You poor thing.

 

[rumme]

We're spoiled? What, people should want to make their lives less convenient, less happy? You've got to be kidding me.

He he. I built mine because I wanted to commute to work on a bike and the hills and distance combine to make that impractical. I can now enjoy a ride and get some moderate exercise while riding to work. Yes, I'm spoiled. And I have no problem with that. It would be nice if more people in the world could be similarly spoiled.

Iziits has it right....I now DEMAND you to stop riding your ebike....and then you must help me tear down some white confederate statues, then we will chip several pieces of them off the statue and mail them to Izits.

 

[rumme]

This particularly perplexed me:

I think a big reason why ebikes are not as popular in the U.S., is because our society is largely out of shape/ overweight and downright spoiled.

We're spoiled? What, people should want to make their lives less convenient, less happy? You've got to be kidding me.

Yes, I want laws passed to make it a crime if people live to " spoiled" . We will start with you personally , and send a governmental task force to your home to investigate.

Now don't get mad, I'm just playing into your delusional rants on this thread. If you happen to see a SUV with blackened windows driving by your home, you will know what its all about.

 

[Izits]

This particularly perplexed me:

I think a big reason why ebikes are not as popular in the U.S., is because our society is largely out of shape/ overweight and downright spoiled.

We're spoiled? What, people should want to make their lives less convenient, less happy? You've got to be kidding me.

Yes, I want laws passed to make it a crime if people live to " spoiled" . We will start with you personally , and send a governmental task force to your home to investigate.

Now don't get mad, I'm just playing into your delusional rants on this thread. If you happen to see a SUV with blackened windows driving by your home, you will know what its all about.
//
Dude, taking a fking chill pill . You sound like a raving lunatic. I never enforced my opinion on anybody, for Gods sakes, its just a fkin chat forum.

Whoa, where is all this hostility and attack coming from?

I don't get it, you've made four posts in a row like you don't know what to think or what to say. I'm assuming you're just angry because I've identified something you said that you possibly didn't mean to say. But instead of just admitting the case, you make this big show of personal attacks and innuendos. I think it's pretty clear who's raving.


I just asked a simple question, why should anyone be expected to intentionally make their lives less spoiled, less convenient or less happy? Isn't the goal in life to bring yourself as much personal satisfaction as possible without infringing on othres? You can't fault people for doing exactly that.