Dauntless
100 TW
wheelbender6 said:
That's if you have a VENGEFUL culture.
Don't forget the naked electric bike day parade, like what the bike guys and GIRLS do.
What's the REAL Way to Promote the Electric Bike Culture?
- Thread starter Dauntless
- Start date
That's if you have a VENGEFUL culture.
Don't forget the naked electric bike day parade, like what the bike guys and GIRLS do.
wheelbender6
100 W
Tucson used to have an annual midnight naked bike ride. I never had the physique for it when i lived in AZ.
To take eBikes from a special interest and turn them into a culture would require one big first step, I think people aren't adopting them as fast for practical reasons...
The first step is making eBikes appropriate for mainstream use. So making them super easy to use, super low maintenance/reliable, comfortable, safe, and the tough one: CHEAP. competitively cheap.
Ease of use, and Low cost are the biggest things I think. Currently common bikes and ebikes not noob friendly. Look how the Iphone has done by being noob firendly! eBikes have about 15 things you would have to explain to a noob so they can use it easily and comfortably around town... Usually the things that bug the people who try out my bikes is the locks, lights, and myriad of controls on the handlebar... my emoto came stock with two different power switches! one on the battery and one on the handle bar, then you another button for it to give full power... this sort of design has to stop!
so things needed:
-Dutch style frame locks that don't release the key until locked (for ease, security) takes several steps out of locking, much quicker, makes quick stops more viable. Obviously you would need another lock stored on the bike for night time or parking over a couple hours or in quiet areas. Ideally there would be a remote or proximity activated security system with alarm and remotely actuated wheel/frame lock and for the chain as well if you live in Detroit. The closest I've seen to this is an ABUS moto chain with motion sensing lock.
-Automatic permanent 24/7 blinky lights (for: ease, safety, peace of mind) The front blink is the single most important thing to safety, most accidents happen in the absence of a front blinky light. Automatic to insure they are always on, so you don't have two more buttons to press every time you mount or dismount. (ive already glued mine to the handlebars/mounts) I wrote Peace of mind above but that was a trick... peace of mind is not something you want, it will lower your alertness and thus you'll be more prone to crashing. Its the problem with bicycle helmets which also happen to be ineffective in accidents above ~12mph, buy moto helmets if you already use a front blinky light 24/7. I've read there was a new type of bicycle helmet: Abus Cranium.
-Seat height adjustment simplified, my guest riders can need really different seat heights, group riding sessions have been saved by having a 20" folding bike for the short riders... unfortunately I've removed all the Quick Releases so the seats don't get stolen... So I need something that will attach the seat to the bike so I can put a QR back on. Another thing that might require some innovation is something to fix the rotation of the seatpost and allow only up down adjustment... this makes it much quicker and easier.
-handle bar controls simplified... I think I'll do this to my bikes now: I will label the rear brake as Turn, and the front brake as Straight, then noobs won't drop the bike when they try to use the front brake hard in a turn. All noobs should really be made to practice emergency braking to an external que. Another thing is Standards: I follow the moto brake lever standard as its much more prevalent in the world. Left is rear brake. Other controls need to be automatic or simplified... I'm happy I don't have to shift gears anymore, deraileurs add complication. I'd like A type of brake that didn't need adjusting as the brake pads wear.
-Flat free and a bike free of frequent cleaning and oiling of the chain. One of my eBikes currently has a tire made of foam, no air, it seems like the way to go for casual riding so I intend to swap all the rear tires to foam - airless tires. Slime helps a bit, but eventually you'll forget to re-inflate your rear tire every month, or because of parking situation or something it won't be convenient to re inflate often... Then you'll hit a hole or curb and go flat - the most annoying thing ever, esp for noobs and many bikers. Hub motors are great because you don't have to use your chain drive much anymore, you still have to lube occasionally so the chain doesn't rust so i use "clean ride" which says you can reapply it without having to clean the chain.
-A Low step full suspension frame, and comfortable saddles that don't look awkward. I think a Low-Step FS frame (similar to scooters) would be the ultimate in comfort and convenience. Some noobs aren't sure how to first mount a bike, its another step for a guest ebiker that is going for a ride... eBikes need to take some ques from the most common 2wheel culture in the world - scooters. A lot of random people who tend to influence other people look at bicycle saddles and think ew - it supports/touches our junk and the parts of us thats right next to our junk... This is notion and awkwardness is probably spread more by naked bike rallys. I think the A2B metro (now Octave) was on to something with its scooter style saddle/seat, they have since narrowed the front of the saddle to allow lots of pedaling but for most it was fine, like most future ebikers will pedal their nuts off anyway. Ideally I guess you would want something that can morph between a seat and a saddle...
There is more to add but its getting close to sleepy time here
The first step is making eBikes appropriate for mainstream use. So making them super easy to use, super low maintenance/reliable, comfortable, safe, and the tough one: CHEAP. competitively cheap.
Ease of use, and Low cost are the biggest things I think. Currently common bikes and ebikes not noob friendly. Look how the Iphone has done by being noob firendly! eBikes have about 15 things you would have to explain to a noob so they can use it easily and comfortably around town... Usually the things that bug the people who try out my bikes is the locks, lights, and myriad of controls on the handlebar... my emoto came stock with two different power switches! one on the battery and one on the handle bar, then you another button for it to give full power... this sort of design has to stop!
so things needed:
-Dutch style frame locks that don't release the key until locked (for ease, security) takes several steps out of locking, much quicker, makes quick stops more viable. Obviously you would need another lock stored on the bike for night time or parking over a couple hours or in quiet areas. Ideally there would be a remote or proximity activated security system with alarm and remotely actuated wheel/frame lock and for the chain as well if you live in Detroit. The closest I've seen to this is an ABUS moto chain with motion sensing lock.
-Automatic permanent 24/7 blinky lights (for: ease, safety, peace of mind) The front blink is the single most important thing to safety, most accidents happen in the absence of a front blinky light. Automatic to insure they are always on, so you don't have two more buttons to press every time you mount or dismount. (ive already glued mine to the handlebars/mounts) I wrote Peace of mind above but that was a trick... peace of mind is not something you want, it will lower your alertness and thus you'll be more prone to crashing. Its the problem with bicycle helmets which also happen to be ineffective in accidents above ~12mph, buy moto helmets if you already use a front blinky light 24/7. I've read there was a new type of bicycle helmet: Abus Cranium.
-Seat height adjustment simplified, my guest riders can need really different seat heights, group riding sessions have been saved by having a 20" folding bike for the short riders... unfortunately I've removed all the Quick Releases so the seats don't get stolen... So I need something that will attach the seat to the bike so I can put a QR back on. Another thing that might require some innovation is something to fix the rotation of the seatpost and allow only up down adjustment... this makes it much quicker and easier.
-handle bar controls simplified... I think I'll do this to my bikes now: I will label the rear brake as Turn, and the front brake as Straight, then noobs won't drop the bike when they try to use the front brake hard in a turn. All noobs should really be made to practice emergency braking to an external que. Another thing is Standards: I follow the moto brake lever standard as its much more prevalent in the world. Left is rear brake. Other controls need to be automatic or simplified... I'm happy I don't have to shift gears anymore, deraileurs add complication. I'd like A type of brake that didn't need adjusting as the brake pads wear.
-Flat free and a bike free of frequent cleaning and oiling of the chain. One of my eBikes currently has a tire made of foam, no air, it seems like the way to go for casual riding so I intend to swap all the rear tires to foam - airless tires. Slime helps a bit, but eventually you'll forget to re-inflate your rear tire every month, or because of parking situation or something it won't be convenient to re inflate often... Then you'll hit a hole or curb and go flat - the most annoying thing ever, esp for noobs and many bikers. Hub motors are great because you don't have to use your chain drive much anymore, you still have to lube occasionally so the chain doesn't rust so i use "clean ride" which says you can reapply it without having to clean the chain.
-A Low step full suspension frame, and comfortable saddles that don't look awkward. I think a Low-Step FS frame (similar to scooters) would be the ultimate in comfort and convenience. Some noobs aren't sure how to first mount a bike, its another step for a guest ebiker that is going for a ride... eBikes need to take some ques from the most common 2wheel culture in the world - scooters. A lot of random people who tend to influence other people look at bicycle saddles and think ew - it supports/touches our junk and the parts of us thats right next to our junk... This is notion and awkwardness is probably spread more by naked bike rallys. I think the A2B metro (now Octave) was on to something with its scooter style saddle/seat, they have since narrowed the front of the saddle to allow lots of pedaling but for most it was fine, like most future ebikers will pedal their nuts off anyway. Ideally I guess you would want something that can morph between a seat and a saddle...
There is more to add but its getting close to sleepy time here
Chalo
100 TW
The Stig said:
You can't fix stupidity, but you can fix ignorance. Not topping up your tires every few days is one or the other. Enabling bad habits only encourages people to acquire worse ones.
If curing flats were as easy as using foam tires, foam tires would be a lot more common. They aren't common, because they ride horribly and destroy wheels quickly. A pneumatic tire suspends the entire rim in an airbag. A foam tire transmits whatever punishment the road offers to just one little segment of rim at any time. It's a bad idea.
For noobs, its definately worth eliminating the need to teach/explain that they need to buy a $50 pump and keep it somewhere where they park there bikes... oh you park your bike on the street... *yawn* well then uhh... etc... lets not forget that not all people love to bend down and fiddle and pump and fiddle some more until they become pro's at pumping up tires... so tires that need inflating more than monthly might work... but oh no then your just more far more likely to forget then... Nobody is perfect and many people would not even bother getting their heads around the concept of bad habit reinforcement just to start ebiking, even if they had it explained to them.... What do you think about your other points about the tires, how would those problems be worked around for mainstream use? (I can vouch for the ride being perfectly acceptable casual from-a-to-b riding... with rear suspension/bouncy saddle/steel frame/fat tire)
Chalo
100 TW
When the solutions to "problems" with the bicycle create new problems in turn that must be addressed by adding weight, cost, complexity, and additional points of failure, you've departed from the virtue of a bicycle and made something else.
If that something else turns out to be a moped, well, most people already have that option available and aren't interested.
If that something else turns out to be a moped, well, most people already have that option available and aren't interested.
John in CR
100 TW
Chalo said:
Not noisy, stinky, oil dripping ones, but silent clean ones that get the equivalent of 500-1000 miles or more per gallon, sure they are if given a chance. Look at you for example. You hate ebikes yet you still keep coming back for more.
Sancho's Horse
1 kW
As far as ease of ownership goes...
There needs to be easy to use apps which go along with ebike ownership. There are many predictable needs for bikes, for battery chemistries, for controller or motor diagnosis, for many of the situations/potential difficulties people are likely to encounter with ownership. An application which makes reminders available to people's smartphones, can be tailored to what you own, can have features/reminders disabled as they become routine, and can bring detailed information to people's hands...well illustrated...and relevant to what people are going through with their bikes is a big step.
I would love an ES app. Stories of blown batteries/controllers/motors/tires are a major impediment. I remember seeing dnum's response to Cargo_Tom's battery/BMS destruction. Lots of relevant detail...getting information when you need it needs to be automatic for the public at large.
It seems Endless Sphere does lots of things application worthy...from build tech to maintenance tech...
Of course everyone here has way too much time right?
There needs to be easy to use apps which go along with ebike ownership. There are many predictable needs for bikes, for battery chemistries, for controller or motor diagnosis, for many of the situations/potential difficulties people are likely to encounter with ownership. An application which makes reminders available to people's smartphones, can be tailored to what you own, can have features/reminders disabled as they become routine, and can bring detailed information to people's hands...well illustrated...and relevant to what people are going through with their bikes is a big step.
I would love an ES app. Stories of blown batteries/controllers/motors/tires are a major impediment. I remember seeing dnum's response to Cargo_Tom's battery/BMS destruction. Lots of relevant detail...getting information when you need it needs to be automatic for the public at large.
It seems Endless Sphere does lots of things application worthy...from build tech to maintenance tech...
Of course everyone here has way too much time right?
Sancho's Horse said:
Yeah this is where the open source controller would come in(google open source controller Endless Sphere)... he was going to include bluetooth capabilities... if he did you could use your phone app to detect when you are close to the bike and then automatically lock/unlock your bike (alarm off, power on, blinky lights on, head lights on depending on time of day). Controller diagnostics could be looked at through the phone... The controller could have some data processing it needs done by the phone...
Chalo
100 TW
John in CR said:
I like bicycles, all kinds. Not crazy about janky, crappy little motorbikes trying to masquerade as bicycles.
John in CR
100 TW
The Stig said:
Chalo chose a lead battery powered ebike with a brushed motor as his starting and ending point, and he's been bad-mouthing ebikes ever since.
Chalo
100 TW
The first e-bike I built around the turn of the millennium used an 800W Heinzmann hub motor, Sanyo NiCd D cells inside the frame, and two onboard solar arrays. I built it for a friend of mine who had the vision, but not the fabrication skills to make it happen.
My own first e-bike, about ten years ago now, was a '70s Nishiki road bike with a frame-mounted 400W can motor driving a 144t left side freewheel I machined. Curtis controller, 24V/12Ah SLA. I eventually tired of it throwing the chain every few miles, and there was insufficient clearance in the frame for chain guides. I de-electrified that bike and I still ride it often.
My second e-bike, not long afterwards, was a Cannondale touring bike with a front Crystalyte 5305, 700c wheels, 35A controller, and 7 speed internal gears. I used 36V/22Ah SLA. It was efficient, but heavy and shaky from so much lead on the rear rack. After stripping off the e-kit, I rode that one as an errand runner until the frame broke recently.
The next revision, in 2006, was more or less the same kit mounted on a Redline 29er, with a trail-a-bike adapted to serve as a battery trailer. I put this one together shortly before moving back to Austin from Seattle. I de-electrified it after returning to Austin, because it's not nearly as steep here, and I no longer had a significant commute. I still ride that bike regularly, too.
The only e-bike in my household right now is my wife's trailer tow bike, a sturdy ladies MTB with wide range 21-speed gearing, heavy-duty wheels, and a centerstand. It's got a Crystalyte 5305 front hub motor in a 26" wheel, with 48V/16Ah of Hawker Odysseys in a crate on the big cargo trailer it is designed to haul. I might eventually spend the dough to get her a cell-man pack, which would make the bike available for non-trailer duties.
John in CR and full-throttle can try to lie about me all they like, but I've been doing this stuff longer, with better bikes, than most others here. They resent me, I assume, because I'm a cyclist and experienced bike mechanic, and they are only motor taters on ugly moto-abortions with pedals they don't even have the balls to push.
My own first e-bike, about ten years ago now, was a '70s Nishiki road bike with a frame-mounted 400W can motor driving a 144t left side freewheel I machined. Curtis controller, 24V/12Ah SLA. I eventually tired of it throwing the chain every few miles, and there was insufficient clearance in the frame for chain guides. I de-electrified that bike and I still ride it often.
My second e-bike, not long afterwards, was a Cannondale touring bike with a front Crystalyte 5305, 700c wheels, 35A controller, and 7 speed internal gears. I used 36V/22Ah SLA. It was efficient, but heavy and shaky from so much lead on the rear rack. After stripping off the e-kit, I rode that one as an errand runner until the frame broke recently.
The next revision, in 2006, was more or less the same kit mounted on a Redline 29er, with a trail-a-bike adapted to serve as a battery trailer. I put this one together shortly before moving back to Austin from Seattle. I de-electrified it after returning to Austin, because it's not nearly as steep here, and I no longer had a significant commute. I still ride that bike regularly, too.
The only e-bike in my household right now is my wife's trailer tow bike, a sturdy ladies MTB with wide range 21-speed gearing, heavy-duty wheels, and a centerstand. It's got a Crystalyte 5305 front hub motor in a 26" wheel, with 48V/16Ah of Hawker Odysseys in a crate on the big cargo trailer it is designed to haul. I might eventually spend the dough to get her a cell-man pack, which would make the bike available for non-trailer duties.
John in CR and full-throttle can try to lie about me all they like, but I've been doing this stuff longer, with better bikes, than most others here. They resent me, I assume, because I'm a cyclist and experienced bike mechanic, and they are only motor taters on ugly moto-abortions with pedals they don't even have the balls to push.
full-throttle
1 MW
Haha you clown, you got it all wrong. Except for the balls part - that's right, I don't push bikes with my balls. Do you?? :lol:Chalo said:
Go on make up some stories, like when a "customer" brought in a GNG drive with a busted freewheel. Or when you tried a pair of disk brakes.
You are a cyclist? With your.. umm.. physique? Don't make me laugh. :lol:
montyp
100 W
Back to the subject at hand -
I'm guessing this subject is US, Brit, Ozy specific because there are a number of places in the world that have a large ebike culture.
In the US working through law makers to have consistent regulations in the US would help, but think that there isn't going to be a large ebike culture in the US.
I huge factor is the weather. For most of the US it is highly variable, +/- 50F temperature range. This is not really conducive for most people to want to be exposed to the elements for their daily commute.
I'm guessing this subject is US, Brit, Ozy specific because there are a number of places in the world that have a large ebike culture.
In the US working through law makers to have consistent regulations in the US would help, but think that there isn't going to be a large ebike culture in the US.
I huge factor is the weather. For most of the US it is highly variable, +/- 50F temperature range. This is not really conducive for most people to want to be exposed to the elements for their daily commute.
sk8norcal
1 MW
Dauntless said:
that's a spam blog for google ranking bump,
ur just helping them by posting the link.... 8)
they got a nice bike though,
arkmundi
10 MW
OK, did looked at that - http://www.ebannelectricbicycle.com/blog/2013/04/17/your-planet-needs-help/ and found that their reasons are all true, in my experience. Indeed, the very reason that I moved from car ownership to ebike enthusiast. And, yea, I've thought a lot about how to promote the trend for those very reasons. Including having considered an "international naked ebike ride," one night of riding, with international appeal, creativity and competition. Unless you're young and beautiful, doing a naked bike ride is rather out of the question. I neither want to put mihariballs on display, nor do I feel there to be any appeal to the viewing public. So here's the basic idea: ride at night with lots of LED's on display, and yea, naked. But it'll only be the lights people will really see. I'm thinking crowd of people on ebikes and a significant amount of LED creativity, kinda like a burning man on wheels happening. Then let it all go viral on youtube with tons of video and friendly competition to see which town or city had the best. The possibilities are as endless as this forum's threads!Dauntless said:
arkmundi
10 MW
Chalo, thanks for providing an opportunity to ask a burning question about hub motors: the Heinzmann versus Crystalyte question - which is better? Any thoughts on that? Maybe start a new thread on the question of "best geared hub motor?" Thanks.Chalo said:
Dauntless
100 TW
sk8norcal said:
Not sure what you mean. That's THEIR site, it's their self promotion and culture statement for electric bikes. You make it sound sinister, when I was saying it seems cheesy.
sk8norcal
1 MW
u can read all about it here,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spam_blog
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spam_blog
Dauntless
100 TW
Yeah, that link only confirms what I said about it to begin with, in fact that I've mentioned was the real topic though it's okay when there's messagedrift in these threads as far as I'm concerned. I'm trying to see if you actually had something to add to the discussion rather than merely echoing what I started with.
sk8norcal
1 MW
wow.. are we reading the same link?
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=37840
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=37840
