Which of these e-bikes is the best for me?

[mobybike]

... (this has become an obsession and I was up at 2am reviewing bikes online)...

Reading so much that a geared motor is the way to go (mid drive crank/crank drive/how you say it). I think (but could be wrong) that these ones have motors that use the gears:
Kettler Twin (250w PANASONIC $2600)
Kalkhoff Tasman (250w/26v bat $2500): http://store.kalkhoffusa.com/Tasman-p/ka09tasm.htm
Balix3 (350w GEARED (21 gears!), 36a bat $1799) 58lbs
R10 (200w GEARED, 36a bat $1299)
IZIP Zuma (Exclusive Alloy Shell 500W DC Brushless Geared Hub Motor) - counting that one out now.

A good geared motor is lighter, has more torque for climbing hills, uses less power to perform the same job, is physically smaller, and doesn't have any drag when not in use. Smaller motors also = smaller batteries = lighter total bike weight. Freewheeling geared motors pedal great, and don't hinder your output and effort.

The mid drive system is going to be the easiest to change flat tires on, because you won't have the wires from a hub motor to deal with.
The mid drive system is placing both the weight of the motor, and in the case of the Kalkhoff battery, between the wheels and low to the ground.
The mid drive system on the Kalkhoff comes with a longer wheelbase, and will feel stable (some say slower) in handling.

Bikes built for the legal European Market, are going to be restricted to 15 MPH.
Bikes built for the legal US market are going to be restricted to up to 25 mph on certain models.

Have you considered or heard about
Ultra Motor previous year models, like the Sprite?48lbs or Glider? 45lbs (they are sub 20 mph afaik and the total weights listed might be without battery)

Another option perhaps is the iZip E3 Metro, it has the same powerful motor the Zuma has, but the battery is placed better, and if you remove some of the cargo racks, it will bring the weight down too.

Bali X3 + heavy and battery in wrong place
R-Martin R10 heaviest and battery in wrong place
Zuma heavy and battery in wrong place

Between the 2010? Kettler Twin (2750 tuned and ready to go plus shipping of $150 to me $2900 from NYCEWheels) and 2009 Kalkhoff Tasman ($2500 shipped free -$50 for tune up credit = $2450)
The Kalkhoff has better brakes
The Kettler Twin might be newer and have a newer battery.
Dollar for dollar the Kalkhoff is the better deal, but if you are shopping step through frame, then the price levels out because the Kalkhoff Wave is about the same price as the Kettler Twin.

Here is where both bikes have a similar weak spot... the Shimano Nexus rear hub.

So...
Shaving almost 10 lbs, moving up to Shimano Alfine rear hub which is far more reliable than the Nexus... you could be at the Kalkhoff Pro Connect 46 lbs (for $2700).

Last thoughts from me on this...
I'm a bit of a cheapo, I also change bikes as often as I do shirts, but ride quality matters to me.
The Ultra Motor bikes are a really good deal right now, and if I were to get a Kalkhoff that is a 2009, I would be calling them up and asking for a much lower price, citing the similar class bikes as proof that it's time to significantly drop the price or you'll buy something else.

 

[Loopy]

Moby - wow - thank you. I had not looked at the older models of Ultra Motor but for that price they must be worth considering. I can't find any detailed specs on them...do you know who makes the motor and is it geared/mid-drive?

I did a ton of reading this morning about Tasman vs. Agattu vs. Pro Connect and what I'm learning is that the ProConnect is the least comfortable, especially on a bumpy ride like I have. However, if the rear Nexus hub is that much of a concern, I will reconsider. Perhaps there's something I can do to make the ProConnect more comfortable. The reviews on the UK pedelec forum are quite unfavorable, comfort-wise, re: the ProConnect.

I would like to learn more about the Ultra Motor if anyone has more info on that. I'll see if I can find some reviews online too. This FastFwdPeak model is $1399.00...http://fast4ward.ultramotor.com/en/peak

I don't care if it is step-through or not.

I'm very grateful that you are helping me to count out some of the bikes on the list. I feel some relief!

Oh - the iZip metro - well, looks aren't everything but that bike looks like it belongs more in a city than on the backroads of Vermont...it's not quite my style, but thank you for sending it as a consideration.

THANK YOU SO MUCH!

 

[mobybike]

I did a ton of reading this morning about Tasman vs. Agattu vs. Pro Connect and what I'm learning is that the ProConnect is the least comfortable, especially on a bumpy ride like I have. However, if the rear Nexus hub is that much of a concern, I will reconsider. Perhaps there's something I can do to make the ProConnect more comfortable. The reviews on the UK pedelec forum are quite unfavorable, comfort-wise, re: the ProConnect.

I had been trying to find out more detailed spec on the Urban Movers by Ultra Motor. I just found out that it appears the reason I couldn't find good detailed information either is that the info I had that made me think "Ultra Motor" was from where I got my iZip Via Urbano, here is Cowbooms title of the Ultra Mover.
So in looking at the shipping boxes in the ebay pictures, I saw UrbanMover.com, and better information from the right site...

Comfort in the ride, when it comes to similar framed bicycles is greatly a function of the tires. A narrower higher pressure performance tire, is going to ride harsh. Replace that same tire with a Continental or Schwalbe comfort tire, and you have a completely different handling and riding bike. Often--- in puncture resistant tires--- the ride quality is diminished because the trade off between comfort and puncture resistance is thicker sidewalls and different rubber compounds and puncture resistant belts. I had been a big Continental fan of many years, until I started riding the Schwalbe Balloon tires like the Big Apple, at almost the lowest pressure they are designed for 22 psi. I add a tiny bit (2-5 psi) more because I'm heavy. They are not as puncture proof, but still very durable and the ride is really really good on potholes in the streets and gravel and bumps in the dirt. I pretty much shop bikes that will fit the fattest Big Apple 2.35 as my "step one" high priority anymore.

The Pro Connect doesn't have a front shock, so it will be inherently more rigid on the rough roads, but that is a significant weight reducer as well, that is where the "suspension tires" (Schwalbe Big Apple for example) come in. Lowest weight, least maintenance, great for anything hardpacked dirt to street. (not for rocks, roots, curbs and stuff you wouldn't want to beat your E-Bike on anyway)

The Nexus hub can be repaired or replaced later if/when it dies. That isn't a huge deal breaker, I'm nit picking the smallest details.

 

[Loopy]

Ok...a round of virtual beers to all. Thank you so so much. I think I'm going to go with Kalkhoff and plan to order tomorrow morn. Just need to make a final decision between Tasman or ProConnect Special. I've got a side by side comparison taken in onenote attached where it's easy to see what you get in each bike. Unfortunately I can't tell what's good or better for each component but you've given me a lot to go by but if you have any more to say on the matter, I would really like to hear it. Also, are both bikes able to handle fatter tires to take out the bumps a bit (esp. proconnect?).

Here's the obvious differences:
Tasman 59lbs, PC 46lbs
Tasman Nexhus drive train, PC Alfine S500
Tasman hydraulic brakes (wow!), PC V-brake (I will be doing ALOT of braking down these (bumpy) hills
Tasman suspension in seat post, PC...not
Tasman adjustable magnesium suspension fork, PC lightweight alum fork

Tasman vs. Agattu vs. ProConnect - a user's perpsective on forum http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/4096-kalkoff-agattu-vs-tasman-vs-pro-connect.html

ProConnect Reviewshttp://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bike-reviews/2193-kalkhoff-pro-connect-owner-reviews.html

Tasman Notes from user http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/5956-kalkhoff-tasman-few-notes.html

Attached comparison:

 

[spinningmagnets]

It appears the Tasman is on sale right now for $2500. If you can stretch your budget to chew on that, I think you will be glad you got the front suspension, especially on a steep downhill. I fear that the type of suspension seat-post it has, may only look good, and its performance will not be as good as it appears it would be. However, the seat-post can easily be upgraded a month or two down the road (I agree that the fattest tires that can fit will help a surprising amount).

Its possible the Alfine is a better IGH than the Nexus, but I am of the opinion that the Nexus is adequate, and you would likely be happy with it.

It is too bad that mainstream manufacturers are limiting power instead of speed. There is a reasonable argument for limiting powered-bike speed, for those who wish to keep E-bikes unlicensed, un-insured, and un-registered. Of course, there is always the marketing ploy of also selling high-powered off-road only kits.

My personal opinion is that when an E-bike is loaded with a child and two bags of groceries (my goal for the future), it is unreasonable to limit the power level so that the bike cannot maintain a minimum of 10-MPH on a common grade of uphill.

That being said, if you are limiting yourself to a mainstream packaged bike, I really like the Kalkhoff as a BB-drive will give the motor some gears. this will make the most of the modest watts that it has, concerning hill-climbing and flat-road speed. edit: I also just noticed that (if the pic is to be trusted) the forks have disc brake mounting lugs, so that, if you decide to upgrade to front disc brakes, you don't need to swap out the forks, just buy a disc wheel and the caliper/cables/levers.

 

[mobybike]

What I heard was 2 miles of dirt, the rest pavement. 1 of the 2 miles of dirt is 1% rising to 7% grade. You want to pedal. The bike is for recreation and errands 12 miles average and leading to 30 miles on occasion.
I assume you prefer low maintenance.
I assume you will get the bug and end up more on the 30+ mile side, or find several excuses to ride more daily.

If the Pro Connect had the handlebars of the Tasman (my question for frame fit only) and a Brooks Flyer S saddle, and 2.35 Big Apple tires, it would be THE easy choice based on what I understand of what I think you indicated, based on my bias of course. (thinking you are only riding dirt 6-10 minutes of your ride)

Looking over Kalkhoff sizing your options are 49cm or 53cm. At 5'7" your legs fit the 53 (medium), but the reach might be a stretch on the Pro Connect at that size for your upper body, unless you have a longer upper body than legs (men usually fit this profile, the average womens profile usually have longer legs and shorter upper body). The Tasman handlebars sweep back and will provide a better fit option because of that for you I suspect. On the PC you may fit fine on the 53 as is, but ask them on the chat or phone when you call because your upper body can be harder to fit than your legs.

Ride posture is different on these bikes, more of your weight will be shifted to the seat and feet on the Tasman, and the PC will be more traditional triangular with weight distributed on hands, feet, and seat.

Tasman = Comfort oriented bike will facilitate motoring. Recreation bike (may get used more because its fun!)
Pro Connect = Performance oriented bike will facilitate your pedaling. Fitness bike (may get used more because you are going faster and farther than you thought you ever could)

Spending that much without riding it, would be a harder decision than I could make.

 

[Loopy]

Thanks Moby. I just got off the phone with 50cycles in the UK and am feeling a little perturbed. The Kalkhoff USA folks are marking their bikes up big time, at least that's what it seems to me. 50cycles recommends, for my situation, the 2011 Pro Connect Disc http://www.50cycles.com/product.htm?product=kalkhoff-pro-connect-disc- suspension that I need, further range, still light, etc. That is 1995 british pounds which, after conversion, is $3193.00 - you don't get much in that price range from the USA distributor, even in the 2010 models. The UK guy was not trying to sell me, because they would actually have to get an OK from the USA dealer to have me as a customer.

If not the new 2011 Pro Connect, the Tasman, I am told, will be a much more comfortable ride. The Pro Connect without suspension was, he said "a bit of a bone-shaker". Aesthetically speaking, the Tasman looks like an urban cruiser to me and I'm rather turned off by the chainguard thing...I drive a Jeep Wrangler and go for a more sporty look. There is no urban where I live!

The 2011 Pro Connect Disc, with shipping from the UK, would come to about $3500. $800 more than if I purchased the Pro Connect 2009 with no suspension. Either way, a hell of a lot of money.

I feel like I'm back to square one.

 

[Ypedal]

250w system.. ugh... very anemic... not.. i repeat .. NOT a hill climber... nice bicycle... but not enough power imo.

The elec-trec with the chain driven motor to the rear hub is a better setup for power delivery...

Half the ebike is the bike itself.. the other half ( expense wise ) is the battery, avoid lead acid and stick with lithium obviously.

Still no chance to convince you on the kit option eh ?

 

[Loopy]

yPedal, you don't think the crank-drive motor more than compensates for the smaller motor? I've read that crank drive is a much better choice for hilly areas.

I like the Rayos you mention but it is 74lbs and I'm thinking that might be a bit too heavy for me (125lbs).

I do have (yet another) question about riding position. How would it be, riding up steep hills, when you're a bit more reclined on the Tasman? When struggling up a hill on my Mongoose, if not standing to pedal or getting off to push, I'm definitely shifting all my weight forward to make it up.

 

[mobybike]

I searched Vermont Craigslist for "electric" in the bikes section on CL.
I don't know a thing about Vermont or these dealers but the first one installs Hilltopper kits (may help you install a kit of your choice), and the second one sells Pedego (certainly worth a test ride).
LITTLE CITY CYCLES
http://www.littlecitycycles.com/
10 N. Main St
(across from Kennedy Brothers)
Vergennes, VT
(802) 877 - 3000

"We are located in Bellows Falls, VT in the Hotel Windham building between the Village Bookstore and the Rock and Hammer jewelry store. Come in, try a bike out and "Fly Like the Wind" at the Freedom 4 Electric Bike Company. Contact us at http://www.freedom4ebikes.com or call 941-993-2617 you can email us"

So if you got a kit, you would know were to come for tips and advice!
If you want a complete bike, find some to test ride for yourself. That may not be enough either...

I wanted a bike from a bike company because all the e-bike kits I had experience at the time with were seriously problematic. The first kits I had exposure to were Cyclone chain drive systems, and not a single one of them, not one single one of them worked for longer than a month if that. It really put me off of kits. Battery problems, shipping problems, motor problems, gear problems, controller problems, installation problems...

So I got a used bike with a BionX kit, it worked for about 2 weeks and the motor broke internally. However after tracking down the original owner, I was able to get it replaced under warranty by BionX 2 year warranty. I am heavy, it was 250 watt, and underpowered for me.

I gave up on e-bike kits, and tried an iZip Enlightened 700C bike that was new at a local dealer. It was on sale $800. I liked it but it had problems. The dealer spent 2 months trying to fix it. (dealers fault in the time lapse) Frustrated, I went an purchase a new 2011 Giant Twist after a test ride on a couple of them, one with a broken Nexus rear hub. I took that Giant back the next morning for a refund. Then I went to the Pedego dealer... Wow! That was my turning point. An E-Bike that worked, had power, was comfortable, and had my favorite tires on it...

I really really didn't like the Pedego dealer, and Mr. 2 months repair was "still working on it", so I got an E-BikeKit from him (Mr. 2 month repair) so I could get going, figuring the kit would perform like the Pedego. The battery with my Kit has an 18 month warranty, thankfully, because it didn't last 1 minute. First battery was defective. Then after various other installation issues, I finally got my first ride. It lasted about 4 miles total and all the spokes came loose on the motor. Mr 2 Month repair is only open 24 hours per week, so If I was a regular customer, without the ability to true and tension wheels, I would get another 3 day wait for who knows how long to fix.

The E-BikeKit direct drive motor got me going, and after $1100 in motor and 36V lifepo4 battery, I was riding. I wanted to get something for my Wife and Daughter, and was still smitten by the Pedego, but after shopping I found the iZip Zuma and a coupon, and glad I did. The torque and feel of the Zuma out performs every other e-bike I have been on so far. Pathfinder, Kalkhoff, Ultra Motor A2B, Hebb, other iZips, the Pedego, and so on. It's not without problems, I told you a few there were others.

So I am reading here, reading about blown motors and experiments, battery fires, and all the regular stuff you will find with "mad scientist" experimenting. Fun to read and follow and learn about. The reality is, there are actually very few people who have the ability and fortitude to do what these people here do. Very few. To them it is easy and fun. I prefer to just ride. I'm tired of fixing...

The solution I lean to is to find a reliable bike from a reliable company sold from a reliable dealer that loves his work and his customers. -> fat chance <-
iZip sends replacement parts, sells to anyone, but puts ridiculous retail prices on their stuff. I got a new $1800 Via Urbano for $500 for example. The E-Bike industry is FILLED with crooks and get rich quickers who find out later the really didn't fool as many people as they thought they could.

Having been an importer from China myself, there is absolutely no way I would ever do that again. I refuse to buy a Ping battery, and finding another reliable battery is a hit an miss and weeding through this site will take a long time to decipher what battery to choose. Ampedbikes kit with that tube battery looks great, but practically no warranty practically no thanks.

I would exchange my e-bikekit with its battery fire waiting to happen for anything less fire prone, but Mr. 2 Months repair wouldn't exchange or replace, he told me to shop at http://ebike.ca/ e-bikekit doesn't sell this battery anymore, duhhhh, (I wish I knew that before I got it) and what happens in 3 months when it dies? will I get my money back so I and go through the process of finding another battery that poses such a fire hazard that it gets banned from air shipping...

I'm still put off by kits and the primary reason is the battery and expensive real charger you really must get if you go kit, and fire danger and expense over what you "can" get in a complete bike with a warranty if you are willing to keep it legal But "can get" only really applies if you are or have a mechanic who can fix the problems that they seem to all come with too, even ordering one online, it WILL need adjustment and setup to be right, and in the thousands of bikes I have built, I don't think I can remember any that were perfect out of the box.

 

[Loopy]

Moby - I can't thank you enough for the information you have shared. I got so close to doing the bike from China, so your email makes me feel good about not going that route.

I did a lot of soul searching, and made an assumption that I'm going to love biking if I have a little hill help, and so need something high quality that will last and that looks good to boot. To that end, I just bit the bullet and actually ended up with a Pro Connect 250 Sport, which has suspension and cool brakes etc. Charlie, at Kalkhoff USA, was explaining the difference in feel between Agattu, Tasman & Pro Connect and the Pro Connect just seems much more for me so then I said screw it and paid more for the stuff I need. He is even upgrading the seat post to suspension something or other, with compliments. The Pro Connect transfers the amount of effort you put in much more efficiently, and is faster, and I love how it looks, and it is a lot lighter.

I look forward to getting it and giving a review and dear god, I hope that this long thread helps someone else out there one day!

With sincere thank to all who gave input,
Proud New Kalkhoff Owner

 

[mobybike]

It sounds to me like you made the right decision and with the upgrades and changes, you eliminated all the questionables!
Congratulations!!
I look forward to reading your review!

 

[Thomas SH]

There are a couple of things you need to consider when choosing the right ebike. Firstly scope the market and compare the weight ratios of different models – When ebikes first entered the market, they were extremely heavy. Some of the bikes that are sold today still use old tecknology, which means you will be burdoned by extra weight from outdated batteries.

Secondly I would consider checking whether the bikes have been certified by some quality control, in order to ensure your safety. Furthermore it's a good idea to check the range of the bikes – It's no fun having an ebike that can only travel a distance of 5 miles.

When that's said and done, there are some really good bikes out there, that don't have to cost a fortune. Many larger discount stores actually have quite good bikes, due to the fact that they produce their products on a larger scale, they are able to offer reasonable prices.

I got my ebike at Nettorvet (http://www.nettorvet.dk/kategori/sport-og-fritid/cykler-og-tilbehoer), which is actually Denmarks largest bicyclestore (provider). They produce their ebikes on such a large scale, that I was able to pick one up for only $ 1.200,-, which is quite a bargain considering that Denmark has a VAT of 25 %.

I hope you find the right ebike.

Happy hunting

 

[alins]

MobyBike,

Very informative post. Thank you.

You mention that you have an iZip Zuma and that it's better than a Kalkhoff. I'm in the market for an ebike and actually debating between the Zuma and the Tasman. I can get the Zuma for $1300 after a $200 off coupon. The Tasman is $2500. I have some really steep hills I need to pedal over and was wondering about your opinion of these two bikes, especially for steep hills.

Thanks very much!

Paul

 

[alins]

Sarah,

Did you receive the Pro Connect? How is it overall and on steep hills?

Thanks,

Paul

 

[Loopy]

Ok - I'm back and have put 50 miles on my new Kalkhoff already. Here is a quick review and I'll post a proper one when I have a bit more time.

Well, the bike rocks (how's that for objective?!). First day I did 14 miles, second day 18, and then I've done some short runs with the dogs inbetween. On the long rides, I tackled some seriously steep, bumpy, and long uphill grades and still had two (out of three) lights left on the battery power indicator by the time I got home. The bike is fantastic going up the steep. There are three levels of assist, and I would start on 1st, then move up to 2nd then 3rd as the hill got too much for me.

The other positive is comfort. I ended up getting a Pro Connect (not Tasman) and, compared to riding other non-e-bikes, this is SO comfortable. When I used to live in California, the longest ride I ever did was 14 miles (with a break for lunch in-between) and my shoulders and wrists would be hurting. So far, no pain on this bike at all.

This bike has hyrualic (sp?!) brakes and I have to say I don't notice anything very special about them....perhaps they need to be adjusted. It also has a lock-out shock thing, which again, doesn't make much difference to me, but perhaps to a more advanced rider it would.

I haven't tried to go very fast, but on my ride into Woodstock, VT which is paved (albeit bumpy) I was easily coasting along at 22mph on level 1 or 2 assist.

The bike is light (48lbs if I remember correctly) so very easy to ride without any power.

The motor is super quiet - there is a very slight noise which I can't hear above the sound of the gently babbling brook beside the road, or above the wind in my ears.

It's a very good looking bike - I don't think you can easily tell its electric.

I was worried about stability going down steep, gravel roads - it is fine and is more a case of me building confidence than anything else, which I'm beginning to do.

So far there aren't any negatives except, of course, it cost a small fortune but I hope the quality pays off over time. The guy who assisted me at Kalkhoff (Charlie) was super helpful and always available when I call with dumb questions "ummm, what does THAT lever do"!

The only other e-bike I've ridden is the e-moto (with a bigger motor)- the Kalkhoff is far, far better overall and esp. getting up steep hills.

Pics and proper review to follow but now I've got to get going so I can RIDE! Yes - I'M ADDICTED ALREADY!

Thanks again to all of you!

 

[Kakkerlak]

This post is an example of the decision-making process I went through in buying my first e-bike. I rode an Ohm Sport, and an eZip Ultra at dealers in my town, and definitely got the "e-bike grin". But the noise from the hub, and how very rear-heavy they were, and how very un-bicycle like they looked put me off.

My physics are a lot different from Loopy's: I'm nearly double her weight, a head taller, and just shot over the hill of middle-age.

Thanks in part to Loopy's post from two summers ago, I made the trip to the Kalkhoff USA showroom in Portland, where Charlie patiently explained the various models they have in stock. I was keen on the big boy: a 2012 Pro Connect Sport Dual-Drive, with a monster 36 volt battery, disk brakes, hub-and-sprocket combo 27-speed drivetrain.. the highest power and quality German pedelec you can get Stateside. I rode the Dual Drive around the Pearl District, then took a spin on a smaller-frame 2011 Pro Connect S Dual Drive.

But I'm on the train home to Seattle now, with an older, less powerful 55cm 2010 model Kalkhoff Pro Connect (not the Sport). It has the older 26 volt, 10 AH battery, ordinary (though quality) v-brakes, a solid fork, generator-powered lights, and a Shimano Alfine 8-speed hub.

What I need is a bike I can heft onto a bus rack (it remains to be seen if it fits well on King County Metro racks), and carry up the stairs at King Street Station for the rail segment of my commute. I need a boost to get up the long hill into Wallingford, or up and over the Queen Anne hump on the Dexter cycle track, and up the long hill and the final cement-truck-dodging sprint between the train station and my office down in Renton. My total daily pedaling commute is going to be about 20 miles round trip with a full day of recharging available at the office.

The big Dual Drive is probably worth the money, if I needed to do 30 or 40 miles per charge and crank along at 25 MPH. Even with my substantial mass aboard, that bad boy flies. I would easily have kept up with the lycra-clad road bikes if they hadn't blown through every stop sign in ten blocks.

Riding around the northern Pearl District in Portland, I came to realize what I really needed was the ability to shift at a stop-sign, get up to speed in the first 20 feet from a stop, and a push up a hill when my legs are faltering. The internally-geared hub and the Panasonic mid-drive are a great combo for that purpose.