Will we reach the limit of energy density in chemical bats?

[auraslip]

Is there some type of limit chemical batteries are limited too in terms of energy density in lithium ion batteries?

What if we've reached that limit or are very close?

Does that mean everything we've learned and all the processes and tools we have for dealing the lithium will be replaced by something else in a eventually? Does that mean EVs as replacements for ICE will have to wait until a better battery technology comes along?

Or is it possible that lithium ion batteries will keep up the massive rate of improvement we've seen over the last decade for another decade?

 

[liveforphysics]

I believe there is at minimum another 5x energy density increase on the table.

 

[cal3thousand]

I believe there is at minimum another 5x energy density increase on the table.

Do you think we will have to reach outside of Lithium as a base?

 

[dogman dan]

I tend to agree with Luke, the future will be amazing. If you were around then, remember thinking nothing could get better than the nicads in that first makita drill?

But the thing is, it won't be what we are thinking of now like better batteries. It will be something we never expected, just like we never expected the internet to change our lives so much.

So while we are waiting for our better batteries, some Tesla like kook will be discovering how to tap gravity as an energy source or something. Of course, no telling who's lifetime it will happen in, so meanwhile we might end up waiting for the next better battery all our tiny lifespans.

 

[amberwolf]

Getting away from chemical batteries would be interesting.

I still wonder if soemthign like Niven's "distortion battery" could exist. Exactly how it works was never specified; speculation has been made for anything from spatial distortion (equivalent to gravitic manipulation) to distortion of the electron shells (orbital paths); each causing high potential energy once the distortion is released.

 

[auraslip]

Take no offense to this as it doesn't apply to ya'll obviously, but I find that a lot of people who write of chemical batteries in the name of some sort of yet undiscovered power source as ..... I dunnu, but it's pretty pervasive! Many people will tell me, "oh sure electric vehicles will be great once we get rid of the batteries!"

I guess what I'm asking with this thread is will chemical batteries *ever* be able to store enough juice to do what people expect from an ICE powerplant?

 

[liveforphysics]

Right now 180Wh/kg in a safety chemistry with a 5-digit life-of-vehicle cycle life is reality.

It's fairly simple to make a ~200mile range EV that weighs what people expect of an ICE car and has the same cargo capacity and performance, reasonable mfg costs etc.

I think inside of 5 years, we will see 400Wh/kg safety chemistry cells with life-of-vehicle cycle life.

That technology should make it fairly simple to have 400mile range EV's that make no compromises from ICE cars, and have no cost/performance penalty etc.

If folks want to take lots of cross-country trips by EV in the USA, we will need more CHAdeMO charge stations. In Japan and much of Europe, the fast charge infrastructure is all ready in place to enable an EV to tour anywhere it likes, any distance from home, with only about a 30-40minute time penalty to charge for every couple hundred miles driven.

 

[cal3thousand]

Take no offense to this as it doesn't apply to ya'll obviously, but I find that a lot of people who write of chemical batteries in the name of some sort of yet undiscovered power source as ..... I dunnu, but it's pretty pervasive! Many people will tell me, "oh sure electric vehicles will be great once we get rid of the batteries!"

I guess what I'm asking with this thread is will chemical batteries *ever* be able to store enough juice to do what people expect from an ICE powerplant?

Energon cubes anyone?

I feel that someday, the density will match that of combustibles. But the question is whether or not it will be at a scale viable for e-bike use.

Will we be able to get nuclear fusion to produce a positive net power supply? Yes. But will it fit on the back of my Delorean? Probably not.

Let's hope batteries with densities greater than combustibles will be available at e-bike scale.

 

[rolf_w]

enthalpy of Li is not that far behind hydrocarbons and is (for many reasons) the best amongst the metals...

Primary Li batteries achieve already impressive capacities. Unfortunately, so far the only way to produce safe secondary Li batteries is to intercalate Li ions e.g. 'rockchair' the ions from LiCO2 to graphite and back. This results in Li concentrations of only 1-2% in a battery the rest is 'packaging'. Many labs work on possiblilities to increase Li concentrations one interesting candidate is Li metal and air. e.g. IBM is working on this and hopes to reach 2'000Wh/kg and to show first samples probably next year. Current Li-ion record is claimed by http://enviasystems.com/ at 400Wh/kg. If this will become available for the masses we might triple todays capacities soon. Nevertheless, I doubt that we are going to see a Li-economy i.e. that Li becomes our primary energy carrier. Life on earth experimented a couple of billion years and didn't come up with Li as the universal energy storage but invented sugar...

 

[auraslip]

I like how hot water beats lead acid in that graph. I'm gonna have to outfit my bike with ninja turtle thermoses filled with hot cocoa.

That graph shows an ultimate limit to a batteries energy density. Will that ever beat petroleum when you factor in the inefficiencies of ICE? Will chemical batteries ever replace petroleum in industrial or aviation use? My gut says no... hopefully tony stark will come along soon...

 

[Sancho's Horse]

That enthalpy chart shows lithium being somewhat comparable to hydrocarbons if it is being oxidized. Those levels of energy density have already been achieved here on ES!

The secret is poking a hole in the brick, step back, break out the marshmallows, and marvel at the heat of reaction! You have maxed out the enthalpy. Now getting those gasses back in, back where they were, and taping up the hole is the tricky part.

We just load and unload electrons with our Li batts, (not complete oxidation). Getting density, i.e. more Lithium in the mix, is the name of the game. There is a fair amount of room there, (IBM for example) and likely risk, perhaps cost, dunno.

But I think it is fair to say that for a fairly long while, altering other performance variables like weight, materials, aero, etc. will be easier, cheaper, and will contribute as much to the final working design of a successful ev as anyhting.

I think ES is ahead of the game.

 

[Sancho's Horse]

We can have as much energy as we would really need, just scraping up what is around (i.e. mostly from the sun, or nuclear). I like the idea of something in the roads which transmits some of our societies power needs (to homes, businesses, etc), and bleeds some to the cars overhead. Reverse cable car. A few well placed, boom range issues are over.

If you want twenty first century power grid, make it like that. Still use some batteries to get from optimized road to optimized road, but they would be well tended batteries, with a full power supply when heading into the wilderness.

Maybe not full on Tony Stark, sort of a Stark Tesla love child. Old meets new?

 

[Dauntless]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/11/101118-antimatter-trapped-engines-bombs-nature-science-cern/

Time to step up from lithium to dilithium.

 

[amberwolf]

At the very least we could set up that lithium cracking station on Delta Vega....

 

[liteCycles]

Current Li-ion record is claimed by http://enviasystems.com/ at 400Wh/kg. If this will become available for the masses we might triple todays capacities soon.

Do we have a battery cutting edge technology roundup around here? Besides enviasystems, California Lithium Battery is also making some pretty big claims -

http://www.clbattery.com/

"A New Very High-Energy, Low-Cost Li-Ion Battery
California Lithium Battery (CalBattery) is commercializing a high-energy long life-cycle large-format Li-Ion Battery (LIB) that will reduce battery life-cycle costs by an estimated 60 percent, in doing so, will transform the way power is generated, stored and used. This near-term disruptive battery technology will have a significant impact on EV costs and the wide-scale use of intermittent renewables. CalBattery plans to have a pre-production LIB with a cathode specific capacity of more than 500 Wh/Kg and an anode specific capacity of more than 1,100 mAh/gm, safely providing more power and three times the cycle life of any commercial lithium battery made today ready for production in 2014.
Phillip Roberts, CEO and Founder • California Lithium Battery"

 

[Jason27]

I believe there is at minimum another 5x energy density increase on the table.

What about lithium air? How's the development of that going?