ZeroEm
1 MW
The US government was working on a Clean coal plant in South Carolina USA. 2 years ago I read the cost was triple the average for a KW. It seems to have disappeared. Now all Coal in the USA is clean and beautiful.
Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear
- Thread starter Hillhater
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Hillhater
100 TW
That would no doubt be one of the futile attempts at CCS (CO2 sequestration)
A sadly missguided wast of time , effort, and funds, trying to find a solution to a non existant problem.
classicalgas
1 kW
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"Coal is not a poison"...tell that to a miner with black lung.
ZeroEm
1 MW
The latest problem with Coal is the best coal has been mined, what's left if mixed with everything, so the slurry ponds grow. The slurry ponds are like the used Uranium, they don't have a plan to deal with it.
Hillhater
100 TW
There are over a TRILLION tons of KNOWN , PROOVEN, coal reserves in the world, most of which is high quality Anthracite.
With current consumption at less than 9 billion tons/ year, its obvious that there are many years of quality coal supplies available
…..even ignoring the unquantified coal deposits known to exist.
List of countries by coal reserves - Wikipedia
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classicalgas
1 kW
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Every ton of coal burned creates 2.6 tons of co2 (actually it releases co2 removed from the atmosphere by plants, as carbon, and locked away millions of years ago)There are over a TRILLION tons of KNOWN , PROOVEN, coal reserves in the world, most of which is high quality Anthracite.
With current consumption at less than 9 billion tons/ year, its obvious that there are many years of quality coal supplies available
…..even ignoring the unquantified coal deposits known to exist.
List of countries by coal reserves - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
How can a ton of coal release that much co2 when burned?
"The answer is deceptively simple, Surendranath explains. Carbon dioxide is made of one carbon atom and two oxygen atoms. The carbon comes from the coal, but the oxygen comes from the air around it; during combustion, they react to create CO2. That oxygen’s extra mass is what allows one ton of fuel to produce more than a ton of CO2. Exactly how much CO2 a fuel emits depends on its molecular structure. Suppose, Surendranath says, that you could burn a perfect lump of coal made of 100 percent carbon. Each of its carbon atoms has an atomic weight of approximately 12, owing to its six protons and six neutrons. When the carbon combines with two oxygen atoms, each with an atomic weight of 16, a CO2 molecule with a weight of 44 is created. The math tells you that for every ton of pure carbon burned, about 3.66 tons of CO2 is created. In practice, though, coal is not that pure. “When you dig coal out of the ground,” Surendranath says, “the mass of that coal is not all carbon. It's got other stuff in it. It's got some minerals that aren't going to burn. It's got some nitrogens. It's got some oxygens already that are adding to the weight.” For this reason, 3.66 is just the theoretical maximum ratio. Coke, the closest to pure carbon of any version of coal used on a large scale, actually creates around 3.2 tons of CO2 per ton of fuel"
That's stupid, especially when PV energy is much cheaper.
In fact, it's insane to keep burning coal, those numbers don't include the energy burned in extracting, refining and transporting coal.
They also don't include any of the contaminants contained in the coal that are then expelled into the air during burning.
Chalo
100 TW
Or dumped out on the land and waterways.
gromike
10 kW
Burn, baby, burn.
stancecoke
1 MW
But renewables are not storable in a large scale yet.
This paper suggests to store the surplus in natural gas tubes. To be honest, I don't understand the idea. Use the surplus to compress natural gas to 250 bar in pipes.
And then?! Should the relaxation to standard pipeline pressure bring back the energy?!
What would be the efficiency of this method?!
Strategic Reframing of Seasonal Energy Storage
Imagine a farmer who sows his fields, nurtures the crops through months of hard work, then — during a particularly good harvest — simply…
Compressed Natural Gas Energy Storage
Learn more about sustainable technologies and ways to prevent pollution with our sustainability events.
www.istc.illinois.edu
Compressed Air Storages are about 50% efficiency, up to 70% if they are used adiabatically. But normally, the heat, that is generated when compressing the gas can't be stored seasonally to use it during decompressing several month later....
And you can't use it for heating, as the surplus will be generated in summer, when there's no need to heat buildings...
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ZeroEm
1 MW
It all seems confusing and it is supposed to. There are the people who want to clean up things. The people who want to misdirect you and the others who don't care as long a they can make a buck.But renewables are not storable in a large scale yet.
This paper suggests to store the surplus in natural gas tubes. To be honest, I don't understand the idea. Use the surplus to compress natural gas to 250 bar in pipes.
And then?! Should the relaxation to standard pipeline pressure bring back the energy?!
What would be the efficiency of this method?!
Strategic Reframing of Seasonal Energy Storage
Imagine a farmer who sows his fields, nurtures the crops through months of hard work, then — during a particularly good harvest — simply…medium.com
Compressed Natural Gas Energy Storage
Learn more about sustainable technologies and ways to prevent pollution with our sustainability events.www.istc.illinois.edu
Compressed Air Storages are about 50% efficiency, up to 70% if they are used adiabatically. But normally, the heat, that is generated when compressing the gas can't be stored seasonally to use it during decompressing several month later....
And you can't use it for heating, as the surplus will be generated in summer, when there's no need to heat buildings...
It's like carbon capture at the smoke stacks or source of the carbon. You can say this is a good idea. Yea! where do you get the fizz in pop, soda or the carbonated drinks. The compressed CO2 cans for cleaning PC's. There has been compressed CO2 as long as I can remember. Is not dry Ice co2?
Then you hear about building devices to put it out of the air, this is crazy because what is the PPM of CO2 in the air? This is mostly pushed by the oil companies. Why is that?
The best idea is to quit putting it in our environment. Period! That is the cheapest way. I don't care about new nuclear power plants one way or the other. Just don't care, I don't want to suck on your tail pipe anymore.
Hillhater
100 TW
So how do explain that every country that has installed significant Wind and Solar generation capacity, has experienced higher electricity costs ?
note: the answers are obvious to those with an open mind.
…which can be/are removed using existing technologies in modern coal fired generation plants.
ZeroEm
1 MW
I will take a stab at it. We are using/consuming more KW. Here in the USA AI and bit Coin require buildings full of servers to do the work. All of them Servers require cooling. I have not kept up with how many are moving into Texas but they are using up any extra KW we have and demanding more. If you are interested I can to some research on it and explain why cost are rising. In San Antonio our rates went up the past two years. We were going to get a rate hike this year but CPS found a way around it. The future is higher prices and Renewables, Gas and Coal have nothing to do with it. Coal is going to the way side because of cost. It's cheaper to pump Natural Gas thru pipe lines, in the panhandle of Texas the wind blows everyday as on the Coast. We have a lot of Bright Sunny days here too. Figure it out.
This the main reason I have been working on getting my Electric bill down then plan to install solar. I expect to see higher utility bills.
classicalgas
1 kW
- Joined
- May 14, 2016
- Messages
- 321
More of your obfuscation.
Power costs are going up due to demand, building more grid connections ( long overdue ) repairing and burying power lines to protect them from wildfires, reduced hydro generation in parts of the world due to AGW caused droughts , increased consumption by server farms for AI and crypto,...and the list goes on.
One more time for the dull spoons...large scale PV is cheaper and quicker to build, even with storage, than any other source of electricity, in most parts of the world. That's why investment in coal generation is falling, while world wide PV investment is skyrocketing.
CO2 cannot be cheaply removed from coal plant exhaust, doing that increases the cost of the power generated by about 25%. That's not including the costs of sequestering that co2 long term, or getting it to a place it can be used.
Hillhater
100 TW
More self dillusion…
demand has not changed significantly, in many cases it has reduced due to the migration of manufacturing industries to Asian countries, and also the adoption of roof top solar In western societies.
Few countries have opted to bury power lins due to the huge additional costs and Hydro generation has never been a major contributor in most countries to have any impact on costs.
AI , Crypto, etc ?..?,..power costs began increasing since Wind and Solar were first introduced in the 1990s, before either of those , or even the Internet, were established, let alone in common use.
For certain there are many more grid connections, since that is a essential requirement for the new locations required to install Wind and Solar facilities far away from the demand centers where traditional coal and gas generators are located.
(Maybe you would like to discuss the costs of off shore wind connection lines ?)
No, ..the real cause of increased cost of electricity when Wind and Solar are used is the need for impracical amounts of storage, huge over capacity of installed power generators, and the requirement ot maintain 100% thermal generation for backup to prevent blackouts on windless periods ( becoming known as “Wind Droughts”,.. which can last days or even weeks)
The only reason why Coal plants are not being installed in the West is the insane (impossible) political drive to “Net Zero” which makes investors wary of future financial returns,….which are garanteed with Wind and Solar investments.
That is not a situation in countries like China, Russia, and other “Eastern” nations, continuing to build coal generatorsin preference to the intermittents.
classicalgas
1 kW
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- 321
PV is getting more money invested every year, coal is getting less, worldwide.
Explain that, if coal is such a good deal.
Most of the big new grid connection expenses are to allow long distance transmission, between the three regional grids, a long overdue fix.
"Eastern" nations are not investing in "coal in preference to intermittents *, that's a lie.
*power costs began increasing since Wind and Solar were first introduced in the 1990s*...implying that it was wind and solar that caused those increases is another lie.
Hillhater
100 TW
i already did…
its the Political pressure for “net zero” that makes investment in coal unviable for nations under the influence of the UN.
which 3 regional grids are you refering to ?
I did not say that !
what i said was..
”countries like China, Russia, and other “Eastern” nations, CONTINUING to build coal generators in preference to the intermittents.
No, its a fact,..for. the reasons stated…
overcapacity requirements
storage requirements
extra grid connections
Need for back up from thermal generators
Countries with little or no Wind or Solar have not seen the huge increases in electricity cost
ZeroEm
1 MW
states-banning-new-gas-powered-cars
This should help bring back Coal!
This should help bring back Coal!
Which carmakers will no longer produce gas-powered vehicles?
carmakers vowing to go all-electric include Jaguar (2025), Volvo (2030), Rolls-Royce (2030) and Honda (2040).
stancecoke
1 MW
All these things are right. But your conclusion is wrong
Staying at an overcome technology has never worked in this world.
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ZeroEm
1 MW
thinkgeoenergy
Here is another story on Geothermal. They are doing a test Well just north of Austin Texas. Using high pressure Co2 as the transfer medium to run high efficiency turbines.
Here is another story on Geothermal. They are doing a test Well just north of Austin Texas. Using high pressure Co2 as the transfer medium to run high efficiency turbines.
Chalo
100 TW
Smells like boondoggle to me. Like some recent engineering graduates haven't kept their eye on the ball of benefits needing to outweigh costs.
"Free energy" isn't free if it bankrupts you getting to where you can use it.
ZeroEm
1 MW
The word Free only means that the source is free, not the equipment or the cost of capturing it. They are doing this just outside Austin.
Hillhater
100 TW
Which conclusion ?…All these things are right. But your conclusion is wrong
Staying at an overcome technology has never worked in this world.
…that Wind and solar have caused electricity costs to increase ?
…or that thermal generators coal, gas, etc are still essential for a practical, reliable, grid supply ?
… but yet you do not recognise that exact senario for Wind or Solar ?
ZeroEm
1 MW
Natural Gas is not reliable! and coal is going away. I did see a relationship to high energy prices and countries that used a lot of wind and solar. Will need to look into that. so I will give that to you for now.
Hillhater
100 TW
I dont see the connection with coal,…but that was an old article and meanwhile back in CA..
