Zero S 2011 - Upgrade Motor / Batterypack

[GreenRoad]

Hello i have a project for the next month:
I have an "old" 2011 model of Zero motorcycle and i like it to update.

For that i have following question:
What kind of BLDC motor is a good solution to replace the original motor - i like to change the Agnis 95R Motor to an 3phase Motor, that i could use an adaptto controller.
Has anybody an suggestion what kind of motor i could use - without to perform many modification.
For the power 5KW is enough.

The next step would be to replace the batterypack from 48V up to 72V (if it required)

Has anybody already change the motor at this model - i dont like the brushed Agni motors.
The problem is, you have not a lot of scope with the existing controller and the brushed agni Motor.

 

[davec]

this is a good question, i'm not sure what would be a compatible brush less alternative
i find the brushed agni motor to be excellent,long lasting and don't feel its worth the effort to replace it unless it's broke
what you could do however is upgrade the controller to a alltrax 7245 and up the voltage to 72-80v to get that extra boost- the agni can take more power
since i dont really hotrod anything- i personally would put a 16x lifepo4 battery in it @ 58v .. its good enough performance for me

2011 used 14s24p emoli... thats like 14s 70ah (4.2kw)- the cells run upto 3c depending on load
so my estimate is 16x big format 60-70ah lifepo4 would do the trick...

 

[Doctorbass]

It depend alot on the goal you have with these modification.

Going to an Adaptto controller and a brushless motor would be only if you preffer brushless because it is brushless. In fact the adaptto can take up to 90V to get full power witch is about 12kW if you go with the MAX-E... but this is peak. The Agbi is in fact 16kW continuous and is already alot efficient!

Going to a brushless and adaptto will make you loose power.

If the reason for modificatin is getting more power than keep the agni, replace or modify the battery and change the controller. The AXE7245 that Davec suggested is a good option that few already choosed.

If you keep the agni you can increase voltage up to 90V and some reported 120V in the TTXGP but the arcing on the commutator ( brush) is intense and will make the motor to overheat. 90V MAX is the best option if you keep the Agni.

Agni is an excellent motor in fact! on 58V stock i have modified my previous Zero, a 2011 DS and i was using 500A and i have changed teh rear sproket ratio witch changed dractiscly the acceleration but i was limited to about 90km/h max.

Doc

 

[GreenRoad]

Hello
Thanks for answer
I know - its also a little bit hard for me to replace the agni motor - but i think this motor is not start of the art....
I like no brushed Motors.
The problem ist not the torque of the motor - its the problem, that it is hard to interface with controller and motor.
The display of the zero2011 is also very inaccurate - special the rest range - i like the advantage of the Adaptto Controller - thats why i will replace the motor to an 3phase BLDC Motor.

The Frame of the zero S2011 is a perfect platform, but it is necessary to update the DriveSystem.

I think over to use an GoldenMotor 5kW or 10KW...

 

[GreenRoad]

It depend alot on the goal you have with these modification.

Going to an Adaptto controller and a brushless motor would be only if you preffer brushless because it is brushless. In fact the adaptto can take up to 90V to get full power witch is about 12kW if you go with the MAX-E... but this is peak. The Agbi is in fact 16kW continuous and is already alot efficient!

Going to a brushless and adaptto will make you loose power.

If the reason for modificatin is getting more power than keep the agni, replace or modify the battery and change the controller. The AXE7245 that Davec suggested is a good option that few already choosed.

If you keep the agni you can increase voltage up to 90V and some reported 120V in the TTXGP but the arcing on the commutator ( brush) is intense and will make the motor to overheat. 90V MAX is the best option if you keep the Agni.

Agni is an excellent motor in fact! on 58V stock i have modified my previous Zero, a 2011 DS and i was using 500A and i have changed teh rear sproket ratio witch changed dractiscly the acceleration but i was limited to about 90km/h max.

Doc

Hello Doc - thanks
As you write - it depands on the goal
For me 10KW is more than enough.... i only will have an stable bike and get more range.
More power means also a larger battery - more weight ......
a maximum Speed with about 90km/h is enough for normal use.
I like to have the features of the adaptto controller - because they are state of the art for LEV project
A voltage of 72V is also a good option.

I have to think over what i do.... another option would be.... only use a cycle analyst to get more information and a better info for the rest range......

 

[riba2233]

I think over to use an GoldenMotor 5kW or 10KW...

They are bad, I wouldn't recommend. Take motenergy instead.

 

[GreenRoad]

I think over to use an GoldenMotor 5kW or 10KW...

They are bad, I wouldn't recommend. Take motenergy instead.

Are these the "Mars" Motors - could that be, that this motors are used at Zero Models 2012?

 

[riba2233]

Yes, motenergy is former mars.

 

[GreenRoad]

Hello
i begin to check up the bike and found following thing at the agnis Motor



that seems to be alloy shavings

Is there an need to be worried?
Could this be the problem of the lower distance?

 

[GreenRoad]

could anybody me tell for what the 3 powerpoles white / Red / black - on the left side oft the Zero S 2011 are good for?

 

[Doctorbass]

could anybody me tell for what the 3 powerpoles white / Red / black - on the left side oft the Zero S 2011 are good for?

CHARGER! CONNECTOR.

Doc

 

[GreenRoad]

Hello Doc
Okay RED / Black is clear - i use this allready for charging.

But unclear is the white anderson Plug - because of the thin wire - is this an thermal sensor of the pack

 

[Doctorbass]

Hello Doc
Okay RED / Black is clear - i use this allready for charging.

But unclear is the white anderson Plug - because of the thin wire - is this an thermal sensor of the pack

The white wire is from the BMS of the Zero. It is tie to the ground when charging current is enabled.

In other words, the DeltaQ charger that come with these Zero need to have the white wire tie to the ground to begin the charge.

When HVC or full charge is reached the BMS will make the white wire to become open circuit, witch stop the charger current

Doc

 

[GreenRoad]

Hello Doc
okay everything is clear.... one question is left.

This charging port, is it possible to get power out over this port?

I want to get out about 10Amps to check the battery capacity over an electronical Load.
I know this port is safed by an extra fuse, but its is possible to get power out over this pins?

 

[Doctorbass]

Hello Doc
okay everything is clear.... one question is left.

This charging port, is it possible to get power out over this port?

I want to get out about 10Amps to check the battery capacity over an electronical Load.
I know this port is safed by an extra fuse, but its is possible to get power out over this pins?

Yes it is possible.

Also i can give you some research work i did to get the BMS signal that can trigger a relay to stop the discharge once one or more cells hit the LVC :wink:

Enjoy! :wink:

Doc

 

[jateureka]

Trying to make the bike a little more aerodynamic could also help with range.

I'm not sure what the 2012 and later Zero S headlight is worth, but the Yamaha MT-03 headlight is very similar and you can buy them new for under $180 with EU and DOT compliance. You could also get a street fighter style headlight fairing.

Lowering the seat so you sit 'in' rather than 'on' the bike can also help.

 

[GreenRoad]

Trying to make the bike a little more aerodynamic could also help with range.

I'm not sure what the 2012 and later Zero S headlight is worth, but the Yamaha MT-03 headlight is very similar and you can buy them new for under $180 with EU and DOT compliance. You could also get a street fighter style headlight fairing.

Lowering the seat so you sit 'in' rather than 'on' the bike can also help.

Thanks
yes the aerodynamic could be improved - but this is the next step --- when it is warmer outside.

I think the problem was die drifting of the battery pack.
i measured the first time about 105mv difference between the cells - this is not realy bad - but also not good.
I did the balancing manuell over the BMS Interface - down to 2mv.
After that i measured the capacity of the with an external Load - there is no problem about 90% rest capacity.

I think the problem was the debalance of the cells, and under load one battery bank brake down (voltage).

But i will tryout if my work was good when the temperature are higher outside....

 

[jateureka]

I am looking at options for increasing the battery capacity for better range.

One option is to add a 'power tank' by fitting another battery where the fuel tank would go on an ICE bike.
A lot of ICE bikes now use a plastic tank cover or fairing that sits over the metal fuel tank. Some example are Aprilia RS, Yamaha YZFR125, Honda CBR600RR, etc.
I tried the CBR1000RR but it looks a bit silly - too big. The CBR600RR may be ok, but I didn't have one to try it.
I then tried the Yamaha YZFR125 tank and it's not too bad. I photo shopped it to see how it would sit. Obviously needs som seat and body work alteration DIY, but possibly an option as a battery cover 'power tank'.

 

[GreenRoad]

so - the next problem
My agnis Motor at the zero is dead.......
This about 1000km.... that not funny.

What do you think - make it sense to repair the motor - or should i replace the motor.

I have no experience with the agni motor and could not say how much the repair would cost.
Otherwise i would sell the controller and Motor and build up an brushless bike....

View attachment 1

 

[jateureka]

Wow, the brush holder and brushes look pretty bad! You can get replacements for those from places like Jozztek in the UK and picoamps in Germany, etc.
Is the motor insulation and windings still OK?
What volts / amps were you running through it?

 

[GreenRoad]

Hello
i use the motor without any modification on settings on the normal ZeroS2011.
Bike out of factory - direct to me.....
After 1000km you can see what happens....

Perhaps the motor was damaged allready out of factory - but its not nice to replace the brushes after such a short time - because - agni wants to have some money for that, and i think over if it would perhaps better to replace the motor to an brushless.

 

[agniusm]

How about something from them : http://www.ashwoods.org/ashwoods_motors.php ?

 

[GreenRoad]

yes it depands on the price - and it should fits into the Zero.....

I need no real high power - i only want to use the bike again....
Max speed with about 80km/h / 90km/h is okay - so with about 5KW - 8KW it would be total okay....

Did anybody rebuild a 2011 zero? - perpaps he could told me what kind of motor fits good for the bike.

 

[agniusm]

I would try and get the motor refurbished. Those motors are good and it looks that something went wrong. I dont know if comutator is still good at 7 and 9 o'clock and could be cleaned with the stone, fuzzy pic. Brushes could be replaced. I would contact Jozzer on forums here, watch couple of vids on ytube from jozztek on Agni's.

 

[jateureka]

Some of the early Agni motors were not assembled correctly.
Like agniusm said, there is good info on servicing this motor. Here are some links to get you started:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=29711 Jozzer's post on Agni motor tuning, with links to service manual and his web site, which has videos on servicing the motor. http://www.jozztek.com/shop/
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=27795 Chris' post on replacing and axle with great photos and detailed instructions
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?board=6.0 this section is dedicated to 2012 and earlier Zeros