Zippy Flightmax / Turnigy lipo testing

[Hyena]

I have a HY5005-2, like this one, which has dual 0-50V, 0-5A outputs. These can be combined in parallel, to do 0-50V, 0-10A, or in series, for 0-100V, 0-5A. They also have another single channel, 20A version, the HY5020E, like this one, which is 0-50V/0-20A

Cheaper still is to get 2 of these http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260436604982&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT and for $100 delivered you can charge 12S at 15A 8) My one actually puts out 18A, which takes just under 2 hrs to charge my pack configured in 6P.

Drewjet I had exactly the same thing happen, out of 6 one was puffed and 1 had 1v cell. As methods said you can kiss the 1v cell one goodbye. I tried for a few days to recover mine and it'd get up to 4.1v a cell but quickly lose its charge back to 1v after sitting for a few days. I was going to ship it back on principal but the cost and hassle was just too great in the end so I performed surgery and made a 4S pack out of it. The puffed one I duct taped really tightly to a good pack and charged and cycled it once. I didn't discharge the pack too heavily but the puffed cell didn't seem to be a weak link. I removed the tape a week later to reconfigure the packs and the puffing had gone and it held its voltage well. Curious...

 

[GGoodrum]

Cheaper still is to get 2 of these http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260436604982&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT and for $100 delivered you can charge 12S at 15A 8) My one actually puts out 18A, which takes just under 2 hrs to charge my pack configured in 6P.

There's actually a ton of those type of supplies on ebay, but I've been leery about trying one because they don't give much information about it, like if the voltage is adjustable at all, or if the current limiting is true constant current, or this so-called "hiccup" mode. Fecther says the latter is not good for use as a charger, but frankly, I'm not sure why. To me it sounds just like BMS "throttling".

Since you have one of these, can you tell me if you see evidence of this hiccuping (which I guess would simply cut the current to zero, and then turn it back on...), during the initial charging phase? What happens when it hits the max voltage, does the current start dropping at a steady rate?

Thanks.

-- Gary

 

[Hyena]

I have 2 of these power supplies from ebay. The first one I bought is a 145w meanwell, rated to put out 6A but actually puts out about 8.5A
It's 24v with a +/- 10% v adj pot that actually has a little more range than that. I was initially using it to charge 6S packs at 25v but I not have it turned down to 20.5v for charging 5S packs. I have an analog ammeter on it which I watched fairly closely for the first few charges and now just causually glance at it to see how the charge is going. I never saw any evidence of this hiccupping you describe, it's always shown max current until the charge is almost complete then it starts to taper back towards 0.

The second one I bought is the one linked above, a 24V 15A unit that as I said actually puts out about 18A. It's not a meanwell and I can't remember the brand off the top of my head, its more a generic name, something like JAE I think ? It also has a v adj pot but it didnt go as low as the meanwell, minimum voltage was about 22v up to around 30 max. I was a bit peeved when I first found this as I specifically bought it to charge 5S lipo at <21v but replacing the 1k pot with a 1300ohm one gave me a new range of ~ 18-30v. Nice
This one has a small fan in it that kicks in when it starts to heat up. I have an analog ammeter built into this one too (just enough depth and empty space inside the case to neatly flush mount one, or a 6S version of your balancer ) and again no evidence of the hiccupping - it goes straight to max current then tapers off at the end.
One funny thing I've noticed this one does do is that when it goes into CV mode and the current starts to fall it has spikes in current for say 10 seconds at a time. When the current falls below around 10A the fan turns off, but then randomly it kicks back in (presumably as its starting to heat up) but as it does the current goes back. So for example in CV mode if the current is around 10a the fan will kick in and as it does the current jumps up to about 13a, then the fan stops and it goes back to 10a. As the current keeps falling it does the same - current is say 5A, fan kicks in and it spikes up to say 8A, fan runs for 15 secs, then turns off and current goes back to 5A.
At first I thought the spike in current might be what the fan was using, but there's no was such a tiny little fan would draw a few amps, nor should it show up on the ammeter connected to the charges output.

So yeah theres that little irregularity, but completely different by the sounds of it to the sort of hiccupping you were describing.

 

[GGoodrum]

I checked, and the Meanwell S350-24 supplies do have CC current limiting. These are 350W/14.8A supplies. It sounds like your 145W model has CC limiting as well. Your second one does have some strange characteristics, but I agree, it doesn't sound like whatever this "hiccuping" is supposed to be.

(just enough depth and empty space inside the case to neatly flush mount one, or a 6S version of your balancer )

I just ordered some 6s balancer boards this morning. They are sized to fit into a smaller version of the extruded aluminum box I'm using on the 12s balancer. Because of the way my packs are organized, it actually is more convenient if I have separate 6s balancers.

-- Gary

 

[recumpence]

Man,

I do not know what is up with Hobby City, but I just recieved 16 of these 6S 5ah packs and two of them are smashed at the corners. I have ordered over $3,000 of packs from them this year. I sent them a VERY direct email about this. Luke mentioned that if you are a high dollar customer they will take care of you. I hope so. I am NOT paying for shipping and waiting who knows how long to get two new packs. I told them they need to send me two new identical packs QUICKLY on their tab, or I will spend my money elsewhere (don't know where "Elsewhere" will be at such a low price, though).

We shall see what they do.

It is kind of dumb to put 15 pounds of lipo packs in a box with NO padding and expect it to make it from Hong Kong without damage. :?

Matt

 

[Hyena]

Thats strange, one thing you usually can count on HC to do is pack them properly. In my few orders they've always arrived very well packed with each cell in a sleeve of bubble wrap (that wouldn't do anything really) in its own individual box, then surrounded by a number of those 'air pouch' things.

Aside from taking a hit, how are the voltages ? Any low cells ? Any puffing ?

 

[will_newton]

new 6s 5000mah 35c turnigys now with separate bullet connectors $99

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=10095&aff=146283

 

[methods]

... I am NOT paying for shipping and waiting who knows how long to get two new packs.

Ha ha ha Yes you are.

Those guys do like $1.2M / day... People buy that ish by the pallet.
You are going to get the same BS canned message as everybody else.
They know they have a monopoly... I mean... They own the brand name.

Returns are not that big of a deal. Just ship it priority - eat the $25 bucks so it gets there fast.
They will return it in a reasonable time.

-methods

 

[ZapPat]

It is kind of dumb to put 15 pounds of lipo packs in a box with NO padding and expect it to make it from Hong Kong without damage. :?
Matt

Well that sucks - hope you get that settled. I never order any packages over 4kg (9lbs) and always use air mail (EMS) and have yet to receive a damaged package from them (out of maybe 10 or so in total - most containing 4X 5000mAh 6s lipo packs or equivalent as well as other small stuff). Not sure if I'm just lucky or if EMS is maybe a bit less brutal on packages?

 

[mwkeefer]

66 * 7.26 = 479 RPM / 366 * 20" = 28.52 mph (3 mph off)

You do get there faster with 5500W peaks... Are you using any of the advanced speed settings offered on the Infineon controller? If not you may squeeze a few more mph off the top of the packs with 110 or 120% speed setting on a push button.

-Mike

Without much load at top speed, the pack voltage is closer to 67.5-68V, so that is part of the difference. I haven't changed any of the settings in the controller. 30 is faster than I need to go on a folder anyway.

-- Gary

Gary - the idea with the Infineon is to limit your speed by use of the PWM using the various speed settings... for instance:

Speed Limiter (SL) set to 60%, that will scream it's head off up to 60% of potential then it will throttle back. You keep the zippyness but set the limit percentage to somthing which keeps you "legal"
Speed %1: 40% - will make the throttle response much more useable in pedestrian spaces and limit your speed to maybe 14mph
Speed %2: 100% - normal mode, also the default on the infineons (speed %2 is default if no other is switched on)
Speed %3: 60% - 120% - you decide... do you want a WOT boost for passing more efficiently (speaking purely of traffic sense) or a 60% which will still let you hit your 30mph just take a while longer getting there

There is a world of things to be done with the infineon controllers...

-Mike

 

[methods]

Ok - I am back on track

I built up a couple more 12S LVC boards for my two "normal" bikes



These are from the same blanks as my monster 24S LVC

View attachment 002_24S_LVC_BOARDS.jpg

Next week I plan to finally get my ass in gear and set up a 24S and 12S balancer system.
After my shameful display of poor judgment earlier this week.... running one of my cells up to 4.4V IN THE HOUSE.... It is time to shape up

-methods

 

[GCinDC]

...running one of my cells up to 4.4V IN THE HOUSE....

how did this happen? with your CC/CV charger?

please tell us the cautionary tale...

how's the cell now?

 

[Hyena]

Yeah methods let us know what happened. Did the cell start to puff ?

After months and 100+ cycles on my CCCV power supply with no balancer one of my packs has gotten a little out of balance. One of the cells got to 4.2 and another 4.22, the rest of them are around 4.15. Not the end of the world, and I have my charger set to a bit below 4.2v/cell for a slight of a safety margin but it sounds like its time to sort out a balancer.

Gary, your balancer kits aren't available yet ?

 

[GGoodrum]

Yeah methods let us know what happened. Did the cell start to puff ?

After months and 100+ cycles on my CCCV power supply with no balancer one of my packs has gotten a little out of balance. One of the cells got to 4.2 and another 4.22, the rest of them are around 4.15. Not the end of the world, and I have my charger set to a bit below 4.2v/cell for a slight of a safety margin but it sounds like its time to sort out a balancer.

Gary, your balancer kits aren't available yet ?

I'm very close. I just finished building up four 6s balancers. They are sized to each fit in a small extruded aluminum box. I'll post some pictures later on.

I've been tweaking the divider values so that the shunt set point is a bit higher than my original 4.10V. With the values I have in these four units, the set point is around 4.13-4.14V (still testing...). I've been testing these, charging at 10A. Even with one cell way higher than the rest, with the shunts operating, the highest I've seen the errant cell get to is 4.21V. I've got four Meanwell S-350-24 24V/14.8A CC/CV supplies showing up this afternoon, so I want to do a final test at 15A before I decide for sure where I want the set point.

Anyway, I should be able to get these on my site this weekend.

-- Gary

 

[recumpence]

Gary,

I would love a couple of these. Let me know how much.

Matt

 

[Hyena]

I've been tweaking the divider values so that the shunt set point is a bit higher than my original 4.10V. With the values I have in these four units, the set point is around 4.13-4.14V

Ah, that was going to be my next question - good to hear

 

[methods]

...running one of my cells up to 4.4V IN THE HOUSE....

how did this happen? with your CC/CV charger?

please tell us the cautionary tale...

how's the cell now?

I was just being a dumbass....
Normally this is a 12S 2P 10Ah pack
When I ride the bike I convert over to 24S 1P 5Ah pack.
This is just asking for it... 24 individual cells in series with a tiny capacity that always gets run down near LVC

I ran the pack in the 1P config all the way down to LVC, reconfigured to 12S 2P, then just hooked it up to the bulk charger.
The bulk charger is very aggressive... it is set to 50.4V @ 30A so I am charging at 3C all the way up to 4.2V per cell

This is normally cool since I run the cell monitors... I disconnect the supply upon first beep.
This time the bike was in the garage and I left the door cracked but I was listening to NPR on the radio and I did not hear the beeping.
By the time I went out there the Max Cell Delta was 190mV and the highest cell I saw was 4.4V

I disconnected the pack and right away started lugging the motor to 40A in an attempt to drop the voltage.

Puffing? Nah... I dont worry much about puffing. Even if they tried to puff they couldn't since my packs are wrapped up in super-angry shrinkwrap. It is thick and strong like plastic.

As far as long term affects I cant tell since this is the same sorry-ass pack that was left on and run down to 2.2V / cell.

These are the original no-label 15C Zippy packs that used to sell for $75 per 6S 5Ah pack.

-methods

 

[liveforphysics]

Atta boy Methy! Don't you take any crap from those cells! Drain them down to 2v, then pump them back up at 3C to 4.4v. Take that cathode crystal structure!

 

[mwkeefer]

Methods,

Considering you were one of the last "I've had no problems" hold outs... perhaps you should add a new notable failure = )

-Mike

 

[methods]

I have not had any problems.
Certainly that did not qualify as a notable failure.

The only notable problems or failures were that of my judgment.

The pack still works!

-methods

 

[will_newton]

well, first me and now methods, anyone else want to join the 4.4+ volt club? :wink:

4.2 x 18s = 75.6 volts
4.4 x 18s = 79.2 volts

to heck with overvolting the controller, let's overcharge the batteries!!!!!!!!!!!!


*since this is America, land of the lawsuit, don't try this at home...or EVER!*

 

[GGoodrum]

well, first me and now methods, anyone else want to join the 4.4+ volt club? :wink:

4.2 x 18s = 75.6 volts
4.4 x 18s = 79.2 volts

to heck with overvolting the controller, let's overcharge the batteries!!!!!!!!!!!!


*since this is America, land of the lawsuit, don't try this at home...or EVER!*

I hope noobs out there understand Will is joking here. If you overcharge a Lithium-Cobalt - based cell/pack too much, it will eventually explode into a fireball that burns white hot and is extremely difficult to put out.

--Gary

 

[methods]

As a battery expert, I recommend inserting lipo batteries into your arse and charging to 8V @ 10A

We all need to do our part to help Darwin argue his case....

-methods

 

[liveforphysics]

well, first me and now methods, anyone else want to join the 4.4+ volt club? :wink:

4.2 x 18s = 75.6 volts
4.4 x 18s = 79.2 volts

to heck with overvolting the controller, let's overcharge the batteries!!!!!!!!!!!!


*since this is America, land of the lawsuit, don't try this at home...or EVER!*

I hope noobs out there understand Will is joking here. If you overcharge a Lithium-Cobalt - based cell/pack too much, it will eventually explode into a fireball that burns white hot and is extremely difficult to put out.

--Gary

But it seems like a sound idea Gary! I'm going for it! Higher pack voltage, and more capacity!


I charge to 4.125v/cell. Not because I think 4.2v/cell, or 4.25v/cell is dangerous, but because the cycle life extends by a full decimal point vs 4.25v/cell charging.

 

[GGoodrum]

I charge to 4.125v/cell. Not because I think 4.2v/cell, or 4.25v/cell is dangerous, but because the cycle life extends by a full decimal point vs 4.25v/cell charging.

I totally agree. I currently have the shunt point set on the four balancers I just built to around 4.13V, and will set my supplies to 24.9V, which is just a bit higher than 4.13V x 6. Methy wants his set to 4.15V, so I'm tweaking the divider values a bit to get to that number.

One other "feature" I've noticed with these balancers is that you can start with an already charged pack and just hook up the balancer. All the LEDs will start out green, and the shunts will operate. Eventually, all the LEDs will turn red, and the shunts will be off. The cells all end up around 4.10V.

I'll post some pics in a little while. I need to go drill holes in the boxes, for the LEDs, and then install the boards into the boxes.

-- Gary