Doctorbass 2WD ADAPTTO / NYX / MXUS 32kW 105 pounds

[Doctorbass]

Now that you got Adaptto v2, do you think you could get even more power from using the QS 205 H50 v3 extra motor rather then mxus 3000? Would the extra weight from the QS hold you back? Or maybe contribute to heat removal?

That's an excellent question!... for sure i will buy one of those QS205 in the next month to try!

I wold have preffered buying directly these 205 instead of teh MXUS.. these would have been less pain to use and no need to upgrade phase wire, vent holes etc... but right now each Wheel with tire weight 25 pounds witch is very nice for a 45mm stator motor!

My 5403 weight about 35!

Doc

 

[madin88]

nice to see it coming together. i'll keep my fingers crossed that you have it done before interbike. many visitors will bombard you with questions for sure

i really would like to know what Adaptto has done to make the new Max-E more powerful. do you have some infos doc? or are you going to take it apart and have a look?

 

[The Apprentice]

Great project.

The nipple / spoke angles on those wheels worry me. It looks to me like you run some risk of snapping nipple heads off or breaking the spoke where it enters the nipple, as the spoke tries to pull straight under load. Motor cycle and car wheels with high angle spokes tend to have shaped rim sections around the spoke hole to allow a straight exit. Sapim do make nipples with a rounded head to allow an exit angle of up to 12 degrees.
http://www.sapim.be/nipples/brass/polyax
But these may not fit your large gauge spokes. I'm sure you know your e-bike wheels better than me, and my worries are groundless but I thought I'd point it out.

All the best completing this beast, and I look forward to seeing it go in 2 wheel drive.

Giles.

 

[cwah]

Doc, anyway you can pitch vs recumpence? He also has a dual drive but it's a dual mid drive! And because all the power is on the rear it may start better:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=65549&start=200

 

[macribs]

Yeah hook up a live feed of that and I would pay to watch it, seriously.
Like an event. Showing of the bikes, interviews with the builders some pics from the build process and finally when the suspense is built up the race. 12 seconds of intense suspense. Well worth paying for to be able to watch.

Imagine that, Endless-sphere TV - bringing you the best of e-bikes

 

[Doctorbass]

Guys i like your imagination 8) E-S TV lol.. watt a nice idea!

But for sure i will document in video all the race and test as well. right now i'm focussed on finishing the bike for the Interbike because i have to send the bike next monday in the crate that NYX prepared for the event. Drag race will be once i comeback !! and i will also use the 80kW drag race lightweight lipo pack!

Pitch vs recumpense or Luke are great competitive idea, but i have ZERO :wink: chances against Luke.. you catch it.. ZERO as he is using a 50kW motor and it is a pure drag race bike... not for commuting... well not often i guess!... Mine is the same bike i use for commuting and every ride.. but that bike will be able to drag race against a TESLA on the 1/8 mile and i'm confident i will get great results.

Personnally i think that bike will be very unique ad use some of the top of the line parts like Adaptto best performance kit, NYX very strong and lightweight frame and very efficient motor and powerfull Battery.

I might ask OLEG to make a firmeware that would be called TESLA edition and the BOOST mode would be renamed by LUDICROUS !!

My bike would be called the P32D !!! ( 32 for the kE of power as well and not the 0.7kWh drag race battery!... P0.7D... lol


The Apprentice,
You are right about the worrie for the nipples and spoke angle. That is not my first wheel lacing with hub motor and i'm now very familar with this type of assembly that stress more the spokes . But all the 10+ wheel i assembled only one spoke broke. The way i use to assemble it is that i pre-bend the spoke near and before the thread. this way the thread goes parallel to the nipple and have very minimal angle. That way the bent part of the spoke is not in teh thjread but in the non treaded part witch is less risky.

Doc

 

[Doctorbass]

The bike droped weight by 10 pounds .. Swaped 5403 by MXUS 45H 3T

It is now 105 pounds

When adding the front wheel ( + 25 pounds ) and the second controller +2 pounds total will be 132 pounds.

But!!!... when i will remove the actual 1.8kWh Farasis cell pack ( 30 pounds) and will swap for the LONESTAR 150C lipo pack it will drop again to: 12 pounds

In total the bike should weight exactly 114 pounds if using the 80kW 9Ah pack and 108 with the 40kW 4.5Ah pack..

I estimate the total hp at the wheel to be at least 30hp according to my past experience and extrapolation.

Me and the bike should weight about 275 pounds.

This mean about 12.8sec on the 1/4 mile... BUT i am limited in max speed to about 130-140km/h.

Well,,, the estimated max speed is difficult to calculate because the Adaptto have the field weakening witch boost speed by about 20-30% compare to the ebike simulator prediction with a normal 100% PWM controller no field weakening.

According to the ebike simulator torque curve, the gain in speed by adding a second controller and motor for 2x power at the wheel at high speed is about 13km/h.

with my 9kv 5403 i was able to get 116km/h on 22s(not power limited). Now on 20s and a 12kV motor max speed should jump to about 140km/h.. YEAH 88 miles per hour !!
and with dual motor the speed gain is 13kmh at 86km/h and probably about 4-5km/h at 140 witch bring the max speed to an estimate of 145km/h!

Now add a resonable derating to that and you get about 130-135kmh... still not bad but just wnough for a decent 1/8 mile time!!

Doc

 

[Lebowski]

About the gain due to field weakening, do you know motor erpm, motor inductance and max field weakening current ?

 

[Allex]

Will you unlock the firmware on the controllers? Later firmwares was limiting the OVS, maked the motors more tame, way less than 30%

 

[izeman]

edit: deleted because of my stupidity

 

[meelis11]

i was just interested in those 150c packs you're using. for those who don't know: those actually aren't 150c cells. those are 2p 75c cells. still not bad, but i was wondering how the heck they can make 150c cells, and why i haven't seen any before. so i can say my bike has a 100c battery as well, just because i have 4p 25c cells

what? If you put cells in parallel, C rating is still same. I doubt racing batteries are promoted with such false claims - their target users are not stupid.

 

[izeman]

i was just interested in those 150c packs you're using. for those who don't know: those actually aren't 150c cells. those are 2p 75c cells. still not bad, but i was wondering how the heck they can make 150c cells, and why i haven't seen any before. so i can say my bike has a 100c battery as well, just because i have 4p 25c cells

what? If you put cells in parallel, C rating is still same. I doubt racing batteries are promoted with such false claims - their target users are not stupid.

sorry. my mistake. i know that 2x 75c cells won't make one 150c cell, i read it wrong. i re-read the description and corrected my previous post (ergo deleted it)

 

[Doctorbass]

About the gain due to field weakening, do you know motor erpm, motor inductance and max field weakening current ?

I will check for the erpm.
what you mean by max erpm is it the max no load rpm at full 100% duty cycle? according to the ebike simulator the max erpm ( no load) should be 977erpm at 80V ? ( kV of 12.25) or is it including the field weakening additional rpm? if so i will check tonight.

The inductance phase to phase is 160uH with stator alone rotor removed and 131uH with rotor installed and motor reassembled. Max field weakening current is i guess the same as max phase current? 350A?

 

[madin88]

as the motor has 23 pole pairs its electrical rpm at 1000rpm would be 23000. adaptto can spin up to 60000erpm 8)
adaptto use degree as value for field weakening and not additional current like at most other FOC controllers.
would be interesting to know what current OVS 7° would equal.

about the 100C rating:
if these Lonestar Lipos really can provide such high amps - at leat for a few seconds - than it would be awesome, but i hardly can believe it.
for instance the A-Spec G2 are one of the best available LiPos, but they hardly survive a real 45C continuous discharge test. at higher amps they simple would drop below 3V, overheat and die.

the graph:

more here:

http://www.rc-network.de/forum/content.php/369-A-SPEC-G2-LiPo-vom-HobbyKing-mit-65C-Lasteinstufung

http://www.elektromodellflug.de/

 

[Lebowski]

About the gain due to field weakening, do you know motor erpm, motor inductance and max field weakening current ?

I will check for the erpm.
what you mean by max erpm is it the max no load rpm at full 100% duty cycle? according to the ebike simulator the max erpm ( no load) should be 977erpm at 80V ? ( kV of 12.25) or is it including the field weakening additional rpm? if so i will check tonight.

The inductance phase to phase is 160uH with stator alone rotor removed and 131uH with rotor installed and motor reassembled. Max field weakening current is i guess the same as max phase current? 350A?

the max headroom gain from field weakening for the backemf is (2*) 2*pi*f*L*I

So with f=23000/60 , L = 65uH (for a single phase to wye point), I=0.7*350 you gain an extra 76V... so almost a doubling of the battery voltage. Not bad but you'll be very very close to saturating the motor as the field from the coils will be almost equal to permanent magnet field...

 

[Doctorbass]

as the motor has 23 pole pairs its electrical rpm at 1000rpm would be 23000. adaptto can spin up to 60000erpm 8)
adaptto use degree as value for field weakening and not additional current like at most other FOC controllers.
would be interesting to know what current OVS 7° would equal.

about the 100C rating:
if these Lonestar Lipos really can provide such high amps - at leat for a few seconds - than it would be awesome, but i hardly can believe it.
for instance the A-Spec G2 are one of the best available LiPos, but they hardly survive a real 45C continuous discharge test. at higher amps they simple would drop below 3V, overheat and die.

the graph:

more here:

http://www.rc-network.de/forum/content.php/369-A-SPEC-G2-LiPo-vom-HobbyKing-mit-65C-Lasteinstufung

http://www.elektromodellflug.de/

Ok i get it about the E-rpm! i know what Lebowski meant now.

As for the 150C pack, John Metric that distribute them, confirmed to me that there is one of the drag racer (the webmaster of the NEDRA website) that draw up to 200C burst .. Yes you heard that!.. 900A from the 4.5Ah little pack. He gained from 14 to 10 sec on the 1/4 mile by doubling the current... but the connector melted but the battery was ok..

Personally i have tested sub miliohm at ambiant temp for one cell and the internal resistance drop as temp raise so it help when pack get hot for power burst of drag racing.

What i like is that these come with stock 8 gauge wire and 10mm bullet connector.

Doc

 

[Doctorbass]

About the gain due to field weakening, do you know motor erpm, motor inductance and max field weakening current ?

I will check for the erpm.
what you mean by max erpm is it the max no load rpm at full 100% duty cycle? according to the ebike simulator the max erpm ( no load) should be 977erpm at 80V ? ( kV of 12.25) or is it including the field weakening additional rpm? if so i will check tonight.

The inductance phase to phase is 160uH with stator alone rotor removed and 131uH with rotor installed and motor reassembled. Max field weakening current is i guess the same as max phase current? 350A?

the max headroom gain from field weakening for the backemf is (2*) 2*pi*f*L*I

So with f=23000/60 , L = 65uH (for a single phase to wye point), I=0.7*350 you gain an extra 76V... so almost a doubling of the battery voltage. Not bad but you'll be very very close to saturating the motor as the field from the coils will be almost equal to permanent magnet field...

That match pretty closely to the no load rpm test i did ! With the previous 5403 ( 9kv) motor The bike rear wheel reach 175km/h easy and is limited by the max speed setting in the controller but i feel it would continue accelerating easy above 175 as the Wheel stop acellerating very quickly at 175 and have acceleration quick pulse ( limiting). That's with the OVS ( field weakening) active. Now if i desactivate it i get about 113km/h no load.

One great video showing the fiueld weakening is the video of Allex testing the 5403 and MAX-E controller with and without OVS,

On only 74V, Without, on load speed: 70km/h max and With OVS active, max speed is 101km/h
You clearly see the battery current to remain maximum until higher speed when it is active!
[youtube]XybF15eNKtI[/youtube]


Here is the full current with OVS setting max:
[youtube]4YXYcD5hQkg[/youtube]

Doc

 

[liveforphysics]

So glad to see the timing advance setup! What a huge top-end improvement!

 

[madin88]

So with f=23000/60 , L = 65uH (for a single phase to wye point), I=0.7*350 you gain an extra 76V... so almost a doubling of the battery voltage. Not bad but you'll be very very close to saturating the motor as the field from the coils will be almost equal to permanent magnet field...

I'm no expert in this but i don't think all of the 350A are used as field weakening current. maybe 100A or something around that?

very interesting point about saturation. it would be great to know more. i remember justin did some tests for this reason with 9C (i believe 28mm stator motor) and he came to the result that at about 70Nm the motor started to saturate. or with other words the linear correlation between phase amps and torque output did stop at this point.

extrapolated to mxus 9kV motor this point would be at about 120Nm, but it seems to be a bit low. I think for a more precise declaration we need to know what kind of steel the laminations are made of and what type of magnets are used.

justins thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=216194#p216194

As for the 150C pack, John Metric that distribute them, confirmed to me that there is one of the drag racer (the webmaster of the NEDRA website) that draw up to 200C burst .. Yes you heard that!.. 900A from the 4.5Ah little pack. He gained from 14 to 10 sec on the 1/4 mile by doubling the current... but the connector melted but the battery was ok..

what about if we arrange to ship one of these packs to the german man who does all the LiPo testings?
RC model builder always look for the best parts for competitive appearance and if the ratings are confirmed they would sell pretty good.
this man (his name is Gerd Giese) has some awesome test equipment with thermal monitoring etc. Also i have seen graphs where he did tests with 8C charge rate.

Personally i have tested sub miliohm at ambiant temp for one cell and the internal resistance drop as temp raise so it help when pack get hot for power burst of drag racing.
Doc

yeah you should warm up the packs before the drag race for less sag

 

[Doctorbass]

Hmm This upgrade might help for better E.T? :lol:

Doc

 

[Doctorbass]

OK now the rear motor assembly is completed. I tested it basicaly with some tuning on the Adaptto and got it to spin smooth and fast!

In fact the rear wheel spin up to 200km/h!!!! and is limited by the 200km/h max preset limit of the BOOSt mode.

Tomorrow i'll make a short run at 85V on the 22s for testing single wheel drive and see if everything is fine and make some fine tuning of the PWR timing too.
I then install the second Adaptto controller for the front wheel and buld the "Y" battery splitter connector with dual 63A DC circuit breaker i parallel to each contrroller power input.

I plan to install the second controller together with the first one but the wires will point up to make shorter phase wires to the front suspension fork.

Every phase wires are 8 gauge, and use the XT150 connectors and every battery wires use 6 gauge wires with SB50 Anderson connectors.

Now it's time to go sleep!

Doc

 

[izeman]

you definately are some crazy guy - in the best sense of it's meaning bonne chance!!

 

[madin88]

btw i also measured directly at the winding terminal ( no wire) the resistance phase to phase and i got:

Green-Blue: 55.2miliohms
Blue-Yellow: 55.2 miliohms
Yellow-Green: 55.3 miliohm

i got similar results on my 3Tx20, but guess what i have measured on my 3x21?

here the answer: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=63142&start=1525#p1093348

btw: same kV QS V3 has only 42mOhm including phase wires, but it also has much higher weight..

 

[Doctorbass]

Yesterday and today i assembled some wirring harness.

I dont like LONG cable suspended on each components, I preffer short cable plug like 4-6 inches max out of the motor, controller etc and i just make an expension the desired lengh between the components to be connected together depending on the bike i use these components on.

I did not received my Adaptto style sealed 7 pins DIN connectors in the mail yet so i had to use the MINI DIN the same as Crystalyte motor use and that i like alot. I had couple in stock.

I also had to make a disk brake spacer to get the Hayes Hydraulic brake caliper to fit and not interfering with the motor cover. I made it 4mm thick and it is just enough for great clearance.

I also mounted the spokes outer to the rim to help lateral strengh and IT DOES HELP ALOT The wheel feel stronger i lateral torsion!... BUT... that was a REAL PAIN TO ASSEMBLE AND TRUE !!!!

Doc

 

[Doctorbass]

OK, FIRST TEST of the 3T MXUS but with REAR motor ONLY today

I have set controller to a conservative 250A phase and 140 Batt current and OVS to 7.

I have to say WOW!!.. I was expecting to feel like 2 time less torque just like the bike would have lost the big smilly HARD PULL feeling with 12kV and 250A compare to my previous 5403 with 9kV and 400A phase... BUT NO!!!

It was like that motor just wanted to pull very hard infinite speed lol! I felt very close to the same pull effect as the 5403 gave me at full phase current!! This is a very great new in preparation for the drag racing!

I also experienced DUAL 9" HAYES ( 224mm disk brake force) WOW !! now that's BRAKE !!! this is good for high speed too as the brake have larger surface to cool down


I also installed the second MAX-E controller to make sure that in any condition it does not interfere with the front wheel. It will cool great with face wind just as good as the rear motor controller. I choosed to mount it there and not on the fork ( like i saw already on other build) , and to get the phase wires the shortest as possible but to keep controller away from vibration of the front fork

Oh btw, That is great to pedal relatively LOW rpm at 50km/h !!.. The 60 T and the rear 12T make a huge improovement! I can now contribute to pedal some power at a slow cadance even at speed up to 60km/h

Only thing i wonder: the KTY temp sensor choice in the RC7b dont include the one of the MXUS ( KTY 83) I only see KTY 81 and 84, so i have set to 84 because it look like identical 1000 ohm at 25 degree as the 83 is.