Really ? If so, it's no better than a TSDZ2 with cooling mod.
The Photon is still interesting because it requires less chainstay clearance than the TSDZ2, but in Europe the price difference is hard to justify (1200+€ vs 260€)
CYC PHOTON
- Thread starter pxl666
- Start date
The Photon is still interesting because it requires less chainstay clearance than the TSDZ2, but in Europe the price difference is hard to justify (1200+€ vs 260€)
Bengy22
100 W
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2019
- Messages
- 164
It's all rumors at this point, I wish I had insider knowledge and even one on hand haha! I find the idea that cyc will make a more powerful version very likely personally though so I believe them (a more powerful photon, although the spec's and date I wouldn't place any bets on). Rumor was August this year but it could be pushed back with supply issues, 3500w peak claimed.
yantra yatra
10 mW
I’ve had confirmation from CYC they were expecting to have the Proton ready by mid this year. With a rated power of 2000w (and likely capable of much more). I expect it will be around $2000AUD, which is a bit much for my budget, however the specs are excellent and match my needs well. It would be a game changer of a motor I think, bridging between scooter/motorbikes and ebikes.
However with the uncertainty of timing and the price being a bit higher than I’d like for the Proton the To7 1000w 160nm motor is very appealing. Hoping to pick one up when they’re back on stock in about 20 days.
However with the uncertainty of timing and the price being a bit higher than I’d like for the Proton the To7 1000w 160nm motor is very appealing. Hoping to pick one up when they’re back on stock in about 20 days.
Personally I hope they do push it back, and concentrate on improving supply, reducing wait times and extra customer service including dealer/service networks for the Photon. If they can also refine the product and get their costs down and quality up demand will skyrocket.
Not everyone wants to fit a motor so powerful they need to replace their groupset etc every 1000kms...
Wattman
1 W
Agree. A compelling motor but in motor design, no free lunch. The BBSHD can take a beating better at a much cheaper price, put out more max power and has about the same sound signature, both are nice and quiet unlike other CYC more powerful variants that turn higher RPM.
The smallish chainring on the Photon may be more cadence limiting for higher speed riding for active rider participation. Nice benefit of the Photon of course is Torque sensing. So its an equation of consideration. We know the BBSHD is pretty bulletproof at 30-35 amps.
I believe there is a more powerful version of the Photon coming which may go more head to head with the BBSHD.
And then there still is the BBS02 which at $500 USD is a bargain in this space. Almost 1/2 the price of the Photon and the Photon isn't twice the motor.
Really good that CYC is stepping up however. Bafang needs stiff competition for more options.
Wattman
1 W
As a data point, I have two BBSHD ebikes that I run over 1500 watts, 52V X 30 amps and never replace the driveline. One 8spd the other 11spd. A chain once in a while and not very often....every 2-3 thousand 'miles'. Both with brake and gear sensors and I really know what I am doing. Abused, all drivelines degrade rapidly. More rider error. When coming to a stop, like riding a bicycle, always shift to a shorter gear and reduce power level. Same with riding a motorcycle. Apply more power at higher speed.
AZeBikeGuy
100 W
Thermal limiting might be a challenge out here in the desert - we routinely ride when the air temperature alone is >45°C (even ridden 50+°C) let alone the heat from the sun beating down... I've come out from lunch with the bike parked in the sun and the motor's too hot to touch... before it's even been turned on...
Wattman
1 W
Believe you are correct about the new Photon. Higher amp load demands a lot of this small lightweight motor as John aka High Voltage reviewed in cool air temp with load of climbing and/or in higher ambient temp of AZ which is a beautiful place btw but man it gets hot there. The Photon is smallish and therefore nice and light and the downside is, not much heat sink for EMF and current. So if living in the dessert or doing a lot of climbing, one has to give careful consideration to the modest power level of the Photon. I want CYC to succeed. And I even wanted to build with one of their more powerful motors but can't stand the noise signature. I like the Photon in concept but in execution, it is expensive and heat sensititive and likely not as robust as a much cheaper BBSHD. China is beating Germany is another way of looking at it. So far. But a nice lightweight mid drive with torque sensing is compelling if you don't want to climb much, don't need 1000 watts a lot and don't mind spending $1K for a motor. Many in this space don't like that equation, will live with cadence sensing and spend $500 or half as much for the BBS02 which is eminently serviceable with cheap parts.
Last edited:
AZeBikeGuy
100 W
With my present bike the BBSHD fits the bill nicely - chain line is excellent and I don't care for torque sensing, much prefer cadence sense for PAS if the controller is setup well... it is very quiet, heck the hub freewheel is far louder.. it's handled the heat out here very well..
But I keep thinking about potential future builds and having some more options for DIY builds would be nice...
But I keep thinking about potential future builds and having some more options for DIY builds would be nice...
Wattman
1 W
I'm with you brother. So far IMHO the ebike industry hasn't created a better mousetrap than a BBSHD if you want a powerful mid drive on the cheap.
Cadence sensing can be worked around with judicious reprogramming of the power levels with the Bafang configuration tool...make power levels more incremental at lower speeds and add much more power up top where its needed because the power equation for wind velocity is a cube and non linear. From the factory, I find the Bafang power level programming to be too linear. Makes a huge difference to make power levels 0-3 more granular at speed up to 20-25 mph.
Power = FD * v = ½ ρv3CDA
Bengy22
100 W
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2019
- Messages
- 164
I mean it's not entirely about having a motor so powerful, more so one that can handle the heat and leaves you worry free, and I expect a higher torque rating too. With how easy it is to tune the power in the app you don't have to max the power if you don't want too. And for the people that really don't need the benefits the photon will still be a thing. But the main thing is options and driving innovation which brings prices down for everyone, give bafang some real competition and maybe they will also update their motors.
I mean sure but even at 3500w that's not going to be the case either, closer to 6-8kw is when that's the case from what I've heard. Just personal experience though, 2.5k miles per chain and cassette (4000kms) and to replace those parts is $45 USD. And that's at 52v 150pa 65ba on a bbshd or roughly almost 4000w peak, like the other comment said proper shifting and use of the gears along with regular cleaning and lubing goes a long way. Also less gears the better, 12 speeds for example are made to be light and thin to fit, my 8 speed cassette is built like a tank in comparison and when you run that much power you don't find yourself wanting more gears
The power rating is proportional to the heat dissipation, so more powerful motors need to be bigger and heavier, whether you actually use the power as rated or not. If you are just racing around in traffic, fine.
The attraction, for me, of the Photon, is that it is very small and light. If it weren't, it would be competing with Bafang and TSZD and won't win there. I think CYC's other motors also avoid competing with those two players, but in the other direction.
Although the Photon is (very) expensive, I can fit it to a decent Boost MTB and I never ride on sealed roads; this is for extending back country rides and to include bigger peaks. I think CYC got this right in concept, we shall see how the execution plays out. I'm pretty sure it won't be worse than, say, a Trek Powerfly HT.
AZeBikeGuy
100 W
I really don't like a linear progression - I've set mine geometrically (i.e. exponential) where every step is 1.4x the previous and every two steps double the power:
I do use 1 and 2 a fair bit more than most might think but spend most time in 3-5... strong headwinds or slopes gets me at 6 & 7 and only hit 8 or 9 when feeling very "spirited"
Wattman
1 W
We need to perform a DNA check AZ. You and I must be related. Well done.
PS. Only diff is I use power level 0 about equivalent to your power level 1 or so...for sidewalk speed with some power assist. If I really want a work out with roadies, I opt for power level 0 and contribute the rest of the watts with my legs to ride 20 mph. I figure I am adding with my legs about 150 watts or so to go 20 mph in power level 0. I can stay in zone 2-3 of my heart rate at 150 watts or so of human power aka me. Every once in a while, I even shut the motor off completely when riding with say a 10 mph rider and having a friendly chat. But power level 0 is great for very slow speed riding. Slowly taking off from a stop or even hammering and doing more work than the motor.
Its just another power level for more granularity. 9 settings is too much. 6 is good.
Last edited:
AZeBikeGuy
100 W
Since I don't really use 8 and 9 for the most part and 0 is pretty much nothing it's like I have six levels that get used... when riding with friends on their pedal bikes I just set it in 0 and will blip throttle for crossing streets or taking of from a start - I have one leg so starting off with pedals is challenging and the throttle works excellent for that - start current is 1% so it's super gradual...We need to perform a DNA check AZ. You and I must be related. Well done.
PS. Only diff is I use power level 0 about equivalent to your power level 1 or so...for sidewalk speed with some power assist. If I really want a work out with roadies, I opt for power level 0 and contribute the rest of the watts with my legs to ride 20 mph. I figure I am adding with my legs about 150 watts or so to go 20 mph in power level 0. I can stay in zone 2-3 of my heart rate at 150 watts or so of human power aka me. Every once in a while, I even shut the motor off completely when riding with say a 10 mph rider and having a friendly chat. But power level 0 is great for very slow speed riding. Slowly taking off from a stop or even hammering and doing more work than the motor.
Its just another power level for more granularity. 9 settings is too much. 6 is good.
Wattman
1 W
Totally agree about the throttle. Its a beautiful thing.
Bengy22
100 W
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2019
- Messages
- 164
Understood, just saying if you don't mind the extra weight that a upgraded motor will have you also get the peace of mind that even on the hottest days pushing the same amount of power as a photon it's not going to overheat.
I get that, I'm glad that the photon fits your needs. I just mean I think for a lot of us out there the photon is a little lacking in power and it's rated power and a upgraded photon would serve those people very well. For 80% of my riding a photon would serve me well, but for that last 20% it would be overheating. A proton could be a great all rounder motor which has me excited
Last edited:
Atak_Snajpera
100 W
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2022
- Messages
- 264
What is max motor RPM in photon?
For example max RPM in stealth is 4000
For example max RPM in stealth is 4000
Wattman
1 W
Don't know for sure but believe its higher than the BBSHD because P = Torque X RPM and that is the way for this little motor to create power.
But here is the problem with this design language. Higher RPM or gear reduction that requires higher RPM at the cranks 'renders the rider more useless' at higher speed on the bike. I believe the Photon comes standard with a 32 tooth chainring. That means a rider will spin out at a pretty low road speed. By contrast, the chainring size on a BBS02/BBSHD is 42t or so for a 700C or 29er tire size. Armature power is based upon this gear reduction.
Until the new Photon gets in consumer hands, these details won't be better known.
As another data point, a BBSHD can be made to scream with a 50a controller with field weakening and turn wicked high RPM. But as mentioned this comes at a cost. To get the full benefit many run a 1:1 gear ratio between crank chainring and rear cassette cog. This translates into the rider not being able to contribute human power above 15mph or so. But the bike goes like stink in this configuration. It just turns the ebike into an electric motorcycle.
P.S. A BBSHD can turn 170 RPM with a light load at the crank at 30 amps and no field weakening. The gear reduction within the motor is: 1: 21.9
170 x 21.9 = 3723 motor rotor RPM
One of the reasons big boy CYC motors create the power they do because is through field weakening and high RPM. This is what makes them loud and objectionable to many. But they go like hell.
Last edited:
Any one else got the 34t chainring? What do you think? What about the others, do the larger chainrings look OK?
Here are my thoughts so far:
The Photon 34t chainring is narrow-wide and 12sp compatible. It also appears to be compatible with Shimano HyperGlide chains (using SRAM Eagle on this bike though, for longevity). Note the tapered inside plates that HG chains have are accommodated by the small reliefs cut on the sides of the wide teeth.
The 34t chainring appears to be some grade of stainless steel, it is slightly magnetic – far less so than steel – and the quality of the machining and obvious difficulty getting a decent finish would suggest that quite a hard grade of stainless has been used. It looks like a machined casting or forging. In the photo you can see chunks missing from some of the teeth and variations in the metal itself. The finished surfaces that mate with the chain are quite rough, with score marks, sharp edges and burrs. The varying shape of the teeth and the poor machining tolerances are a concern.
When installing this chainring, the fit was very loose over its carrier - with play in all directions, and it took a LOT of torque to tighten the cover ring and take up the slack.
Maybe CYC have work to do in this area, particularly around some final finishing techniques that might become available if production runs increase. I don’t understand why the 34t chainring is so bad – the main crank shaft is stunning, meticulously finished and easily one of the best machined and finished pieces I’ve ever seen. In contrast, this chainring is "agricultural". Very disappointing, especially for the price.
Be interested to hear others views about the chainrings specifically.
Here are my thoughts so far:
The Photon 34t chainring is narrow-wide and 12sp compatible. It also appears to be compatible with Shimano HyperGlide chains (using SRAM Eagle on this bike though, for longevity). Note the tapered inside plates that HG chains have are accommodated by the small reliefs cut on the sides of the wide teeth.
The 34t chainring appears to be some grade of stainless steel, it is slightly magnetic – far less so than steel – and the quality of the machining and obvious difficulty getting a decent finish would suggest that quite a hard grade of stainless has been used. It looks like a machined casting or forging. In the photo you can see chunks missing from some of the teeth and variations in the metal itself. The finished surfaces that mate with the chain are quite rough, with score marks, sharp edges and burrs. The varying shape of the teeth and the poor machining tolerances are a concern.
When installing this chainring, the fit was very loose over its carrier - with play in all directions, and it took a LOT of torque to tighten the cover ring and take up the slack.
Maybe CYC have work to do in this area, particularly around some final finishing techniques that might become available if production runs increase. I don’t understand why the 34t chainring is so bad – the main crank shaft is stunning, meticulously finished and easily one of the best machined and finished pieces I’ve ever seen. In contrast, this chainring is "agricultural". Very disappointing, especially for the price.
Be interested to hear others views about the chainrings specifically.
The Photon comes standard with a 38t chainring, with 34t and 50t options at extra cost. 32t isn't even available.
Mongo
100 W
On the rings, I've got a 38t currently, and an 34t motor on order for another project. The 38t I received has, I think, an aluminum gear ring - maybe the $50 difference. The 38t has an anodized, highly magnetic steel tooth ring.
I'm hoping Lekkie jumps in and offers more selection - both teeth and chain lines.
I'm hoping Lekkie jumps in and offers more selection - both teeth and chain lines.
Last edited:
Wattman
1 W
Agree ncmired. I run both their chainrings and crank arms and their stuff is pricey but worth it in my opinion. I like short cranks on ebikes.
Mongo
100 W
Lekkie does really nice work, and for some situations are easily the best, most elegant solution. Jones Motorbikes makes some nice BBS02 and BBSHD 34T chainrings - good for
I also appreciate that the 40T Lekkie and the Jones 34T chainrings have integrated guards, after sacrificing some pants cuffs on "lessor" designs.
Last edited:
