Hill Climbing Assistance

[E-HP]

The TSDZ2B sounds much louder than the Bafang. Is that because of bicycle + camera positioning, or is it a noisier system?

I believe the Bafang bbs## mid drives are the quietest of DIY motors, and the only ones I’d personally consider. The tsdz is probably in the middle of the pack for noise. I couldn’t handle that, but you suggested a friction drive, which would be equally irritating to me.
I like trail riding with a silent ebike, since I get right up close to the animals near the trails. I’ve ridden within a couple feet of deers lying around by the trail, and have had to push cattle to the side when riding on trails through pasture areas.

 

[metanewbie]

No, this motor has one gear and will want to do ~25mph on the flat on a 700c, your gearing is great, the motor's is going to be poor.



Yes the wheel is nearly half the diameter of the 700c, so the roller motor should be much better geared for the hill climb.

I'm curious if you don't mind explaining why that is. If, on the gear calculator, all the numbers are nearly equal, the 16" wheels are better for the roller motor. According to the visual calculator, the hybrid very slightly edges out the folder on lower gearing:

700c hybrid bottom and 16" folder top.

However, the visual calculator and reality have different outcomes based on what you are saying.

 

[metanewbie]

I believe the Bafang bbs## mid drives are the quietest of DIY motors, and the only ones I’d personally consider. The tsdz is probably in the middle of the pack for noise. I couldn’t handle that, but you suggested a friction drive, which would be equally irritating to me.
I like trail riding with a silent ebike, since I get right up close to the animals near the trails. I’ve ridden within a couple feet of deers lying around by the trail, and have had to push cattle to the side when riding on trails through pasture areas.

Such awesome nature riding.

The noise factor is good to consider. Is there a Bafang version with torque?

 

[neptronix]

I'm curious if you don't mind explaining why that is. If, on the gear calculator, all the numbers are nearly equal, the 16" wheels are better for the roller motor. According to the visual calculator, the hybrid very slightly edges out the folder on lower gearing:

700c hybrid bottom and 16" folder top.

However, the visual calculator and reality have different outcomes based on what you are saying.

A 16" wheel is 43% smaller than a 700c diameter wise.

57% of 27mph is 15.3mph which is much closer to the speed you're normally pedaling at up the hill ( <10mph, right? )

The motor is very clearly geared for the flats. It takes about 250w to sustain 15mph. so top speed around 15mph in the 16" wheels closely matches the motor's continuous power capabilities. This will strain the motor a lot less going up a hill.

Even in the 16", the motor wattage and gearing is not ideal for the grade.

This is again why i suggested a small geared hub motor, you can get them geared correctly for your application; these drives are geared incorrectly for what you are doing ( way too fast ) and you run the risk of overheating, moreso in the 700c wheel.

 

[metanewbie]

A 16" wheel is 43% smaller than a 700c diameter wise.

57% of 27mph is 15.3mph which is much closer to the speed you're normally pedaling at up the hill ( <10mph, right? )

The motor is very clearly geared for the flats. It takes about 250w to sustain 15mph. so top speed around 15mph in the 16" wheels closely matches the motor's continuous power capabilities. This will strain the motor a lot less going up a hill.

Even in the 16", the motor wattage and gearing is not ideal for the grade.

This is again why i suggested a small geared hub motor, you can get them geared correctly for your application; these drives are geared incorrectly for what you are doing ( way too fast ) and you run the risk of overheating, moreso in the 700c wheel.

Correct. I average about 4/5 MPH uphill but 6/8 if I carry less stuff, which is less common. So I don't mind going that slow, I would just like to save self-energy. I'm not a fast rider ever.

If I go that route, can I find a rear-wheel conversion kit (so I can throw it on my 9-speed cassette) or a mid-drive that matches that? The 700c uses a carbon fork. In that case, I'd start with the 700c because I would use the extra power to pull groceries utilizing a trailer. My ideal budget would be $600 to $700 maximum, but is that realistic?

 

[maiz]

You have a ~12 mile ride, and the power output will be intermittent; you'd probably be more than happy with a 10ah battery.

Never heard of affordablebikes.ca before, interesting company, i like that they sell big batteries, whereas my favorites, ebikes.ca and em3ev.com, do not. What have you heard about the quality of their batteries?

This is from their YT channel:

 

[metanewbie]

Here is an advised savings budget alternative for the 700c hybrid.

Toseven DM02 500w Mid Drive Motor

36V 12.8ah - ECO PACK - USED TESTED

What do you think?

 

[neptronix]

Correct. I average about 4/5 MPH uphill but 6/8 if I carry less stuff, which is less common. So I don't mind going that slow, I would just like to save self-energy. I'm not a fast rider ever.

If I go that route, can I find a rear-wheel conversion kit (so I can throw it on my 9-speed cassette) or a mid-drive that matches that? The 700c uses a carbon fork. In that case, I'd start with the 700c because I would use the extra power to pull groceries utilizing a trailer. My ideal budget would be $600 to $700 maximum, but is that realistic?

Yes, there exist some geared hub motor kits with really large reduction ratios, enough power output to prevent not bogging down and overheating, and a 15mph top speed in a 26" wheel on 36v, therefore, about 17mph on your 700c.

Most of them are gonna be Chinese branded, a few of them come prespoked, but assume you are spoking a wheel.

A mid drive will be heavier and probably more expensive. You don't need to precisely hand pick the winding/motor so much since you have gears.

There exists a 4lbs mid drive with power levels ranging from 250-1000w but it costs $1000, but i think that's out of your price range.
The cheap chinese mid drives start at 8lbs and usually put an extra 15mm offset on the right pedal, and can have funky chainline issues. I'd personally only pick a high end mid drive that's both light and emphasizes proper spacing in the bike parts.

 

[neptronix]

We have a lot of threads on this forum about the dm02,; worth a search; i don't know too much about them other than they fit the critiques above.

 

[metanewbie]

We have a lot of threads on this forum about the dm02,; worth a search; i don't know too much about them other than they fit the critiques above.

Ouch. Lots of flips of the coin may or may not work. I wonder what the most reliable mid-drive one can get is: torque or not torque.

 

[neptronix]

That's how it goes with cheap chinese components honestly. Bafang bbs01 are known for decent reliability and replacable parts, but are probably above your weight threshold @ ~8lbs.

For cheap chinese stuff like that i will always run an external controller and my own electronics because what comes with them is typically crap, poorly tuned, or both. Usually the electro-mechanical aspects are good enough.

Battery pack? i dunno, affordable bikes seems like a cool company, i like the transparency about their build process. They seem to know enough about what they're doing. Just never heard of anyone using their products. They seem to have 2 years in the biz.

I personally might buy one of their 60v 20ah packs and be a test hamster with you, lol

 

[Az.]

I believe the Bafang bbs## mid drives are the quietest of DIY motors, and the only ones I’d personally consider. The tsdz is probably in the middle of the pack for noise.

TSDZ2B is hit and miss I am told. One I have is not to bad. Quieter than some hub motors I tried.
TSDZ8 is very quiet. Didn't compare with Bafang as cadence sensor is not my cup of tea.

TSDZ8 is very quiet, but also very heavy, so probably not the best option for OP.

 

[metanewbie]

Here is a DM02 in action ... but it seems like the person is struggling just as much as if he weren't using a mid-drive. The only benefit for him is he's going faster. At least, that's how I'm viewing this video. Is this usually the case?

I can feel the struggle and go slower when I go up hills, but I am never out of breath. I'm wondering if a mid-drive will benefit me.

 

[metanewbie]

TSDZ2B is hit and miss I am told. One I have is not to bad. Quieter than some hub motors I tried.
TSDZ8 is very quiet. Didn't compare with Bafang as cadence sensor is not my cup of tea.

TSDZ8 is very quiet, but also very heavy, so probably not the best option for OP.

That's my main concern. If I want to turn off the ebike function, I'm still stuck with the bulk and weight. That's where the friction drive has an appeal (despite it being a friction drive with all its shortcomings.)

 

[docw009]

The TSDZ2B sounds much louder than the Bafang. Is that because of bicycle + camera positioning, or is it a noisier system?

I think they are both pretty silent, but you already owned a BBS02B and didn't like its pedal feel. Maybe it was set up from the factory with speed limits on each PAS level. Causes the motor to shut off when you exceed the limit, Very unnatural. It forces you to either shift PAS levels as you speed up, or ride in a high level with high assist at lower speeds, If the speed limits are removed, it rides a lot better.

I'll ride my BBS02B bike when I feel lazy. Otherwise, I like the torque assist TSDZ2, but sometimes I wish it had power on demand, which it doesn't, Pulling the throttle on the BBS02B and getting over 1000W for brief kick of power is like muscle car days,

 

[metanewbie]

I think they are both pretty silent, but you already owned a BBS02B and didn't like its pedal feel. Maybe it was set up from the factory with speed limits on each PAS level. Causes the motor to shut off when you exceed the limit, Very unnatural. It forces you to either shift PAS levels as you speed up, or ride in a high level with high assist at lower speeds, If the speed limits are removed, it rides a lot better.

I'll ride my BBS02B bike when I feel lazy. Otherwise, I like the torque assist TSDZ2, but sometimes I wish it had power on demand, which it doesn't, Pulling the throttle on the BBS02B and getting over 1000W for brief kick of power is like muscle car days,

It could have been a settings issue all that time. I would feel dumb if it were.

Can you install a throttle for your TSDZ2 to force it to accelerate regardless of pedaling?

That's another reason I am considering the friction drive. It has an electronic clutch mode. So, it only works when the button is pushed. One of the reasons I think I get tired is because I'm a weirdo who stops at every single stop sign and red light. I've been hit about six times by cars, and I just have this fear of not being seen or going too fast to stop.

Once I get going, I'm at a decent pace, but the stopping and starting that tires me. I was thinking of using it like stop, boost, pedal normal, stop, boost, pedal normal -- but I'd have that jolt for momentum. It sounds good on paper.

 

[Az.]

Can you install a throttle for your TSDZ2 to force it to accelerate regardless of pedaling?

Yes you can.

TSDZ2 is obsolete now. TSDZ2B as well.
Check

DM02 Ebike Mid-Drive Motor - To7motor

DM02 Ebike Mid-Drive Motor. Competitive Pricing E-Bike Mid-Drive Motor with Enhanced Features. achieve good mute effect, with high gear ratio (40.27).

to7motor.com

 

[Az.]

My bad, i didn't scroll all the way down. Price still seems low.
They don't ship to the United States. I knew there was a hitch!

Try to unclick every option then choose ship to USA, ship from, voltage and capacity.

 

[Diggs]

Maybe it was set up from the factory with speed limits on each PAS level. Causes the motor to shut off when you exceed the limit, Very unnatural.

This is actually one of the best features of the Bafang 02/HD mid-drives. Maybe not so much for off road riding but for country cruisers like me it's a blessing. A pedaling type of cruise control. I can ride 40-50 miles sometimes and never have to touch the throttle or assist levels. I discussed it a bit more here -

BBS02 programming question

I am thinking of converting from a Bafang geared hub drive to a Bafang BBS02. My geared hub drive uses a KT controller that has 5 PAS settings. Each setting provides a set level of assist up to the maximum speed of the motor. This is very different from the original Bafang controller that...

endless-sphere.com

 

[metanewbie]

Based on this thread, mid-drive can be a nightmare if you simply want a reliable ebike conversion.

 

[glennb]

Bear in mind that with friction drives its roller diameter that determines the MPH vs RPM relationship - bike wheel diameter is irrelevant.

 

[metanewbie]

Bear in mind that with friction drives its roller diameter that determines the MPH vs RPM relationship - bike wheel diameter is irrelevant.

That's interesting to know. How is the calculation made with the proper data? Thanks!

 

[neptronix]

Based on this thread, mid-drive can be a nightmare if you simply want a reliable ebike conversion.

Yes, that's why i like geared hub motors. next best thing to a direct drive in terms of simplicity

Bear in mind that with friction drives its roller diameter that determines the MPH vs RPM relationship - bike wheel diameter is irrelevant.

Are you sure about that? a tiny roller running on a huge tire, looks suspiciously like two gears moving against each other, i'd imagine the same mechanical thing is happening?

If so, i stand corrected!

 

[metanewbie]

Yes, that's why i like geared hub motors. next best thing to a direct drive in terms of simplicity

What do you think of lvbu tech? They put the controller in the battery, using a gyroscope system to adjust for assistance based on incline.

 

[neptronix]

I don't want my powertrain parts sharing thermal space knowing that all of them are sensitive to heat, i want a controller i can program, and i want a throttle or PAS instead of gimmicks like that.

Wrong place on the reliability, serviceability, and complexity axis for me.