Handbike Motor advice please

[Somo]

FYI - pure amateur trying to resolve this!!
I have now had cut outs of power on 2 bafang 20” x G0.20.500.DC10 conversions,(I replaced one) both biking up steep hills in the heat! (One time pulling my husband on a small trailer!!0 had 08H error message, but then cleared and worked for quite awhile - had Hall sensors scanned and apparently they are good. It is working again now - BUT thats not reliable enough for me, I need to change - Or do I need to change the controller to the type doesnt need hall sensors.
Batteries are good 48v.
Controller says 18+-1A type YCSV126-017-48T
“I have researched more hybrid handbikes and this is what their motors say powerful motor with mountain capability with high torque and minimizing the risk of overheating.-
If I change can I use my display, throttle, battery cables and harness as is - plug and play?
Also guessing motor cores are not interchangeable for not having to buy rim etc again!
Thank you

 

[dgc]

I am going to ask a daft question, am I correct in thinking this a recumbent trike or human-powered bike using the arms and upper body for propulsion? My thoughts, if you are having to climb a steep hill slowly with a geared hub motor you will tend to cook the motor especially if it is long, if you have a controller capable of putting out 18 amps then you a winding the motor up to say 850 watts (18a X 48v=864w), it's alright to punch the power up over the top intermittently but not continually, I do not what leeway there is in the motor although I do myself have a mountain bike with a geared Bafang rear hub motor. I assume that the mountain capability with high torque motors have a lower gear ratio in them perhaps to bring the torque up. If I had the choice which you may not have I would have fitted a mid-drive, Bafang or Tongsheng and made use of the gears to keep the drives spinning reasonable speed. Changing the controller to the type that doesn't need hall sensors may not be the solution. First question, do these motors get hot after a steep hill climb? I know that my mountain bike with a geared Bafang rear hub motor on a steep 1/2 mile hill climb gets hot where as my other mountain bike with a Tongsheng TSDZ2B mid-drive remains cool as I am using the gears to reduce the motor load.

 

[Somo]

I am going to ask a daft question, am I correct in thinking this a recumbent trike or human-powered bike using the arms and upper body for propulsion? My thoughts, if you are having to climb a steep hill slowly with a geared hub motor you will tend to cook the motor especially if it is long, if you have a controller capable of putting out 18 amps then you a winding the motor up to say 850 watts (18a X 48v=864w), it's alright to punch the power up over the top intermittently but not continually, I do not what leeway there is in the motor although I do myself have a mountain bike with a geared Bafang rear hub motor. I assume that the mountain capability with high torque motors have a lower gear ratio in them perhaps to bring the torque up. If I had the choice which you may not have I would have fitted a mid-drive, Bafang or Tongsheng and made use of the gears to keep the drives spinning reasonable speed. Changing the controller to the type that doesn't need hall sensors may not be the solution. First question, do these motors get hot after a steep hill climb? I know that my mountain bike with a geared Bafang rear hub motor on a steep 1/2 mile hill climb gets hot where as my other mountain bike with a Tongsheng TSDZ2B mid-drive remains cool as I am using the gears to reduce the motor load.

Not daft! Yes it attaches to the front of my wheelchair, I can purely throttle but mostly it’s PAS and I hand crank with using the gears as well.
My concern with the mid drive is I really need the weight on the front wheel, its already challenged for traction and I thought if I put a mid drive by the cranks it would be top heavy?
Also when I fly I unhook the chain from the crank And use the throttle - to avoid cable tangle when they load it on the plane -the last damage done was climbing up to the top of Motovun in a 75km ride on the Parazana Trail!
in taking it apart to see the controller - the guy who did the install had filled the plastic case with insulation spray foam -
right now its working again - BUT i just don’t know when it will cut out!
Also I wont be doing a climb like that - unless accidentally!!

 

[dgc]

I see what your mean was looking at other wheelchair / TSDZ2(B) conversions online, what you be doing is putting a 3.5 kg weight up top.The gain would a reduction in bits and pieces as the controller is built in with you only needing to connect the battery, display and sensors. As the TSDZ2B ($235) is a torque sensing drive I had a worry it may be a problem but there are conversions out there already. Or the Bafang BBS01B but it is heavier at 4 kg. Parazana Trail and Motovun, I am amazed. Both these drives are serviceable, parts are available including the outer cases. If you stay with the hub drive I would look more into the specs for a unit with a lower internal ratio to keep the motor spinning a a higher speed. Most people like the Bafang seems to be better built, I like the Tongsheng TSDZ2B due to to it's torque sensing which give me more range on a charge, I have a couple on bikes with the TSDZ2(B) and have done over 2500 miles but I am light weight rider to what you done.

 

[Somo]

Not daft! Yes it attaches to the front of my wheelchair, I can purely throttle but mostly it’s PAS and I hand crank with using the gears as well.
My concern with the mid drive is I really need the weight on the front wheel, its already challenged for traction and I thought if I put a mid drive by the cranks it would be top heavy?
Also when I fly I unhook the chain from the crank And use the throttle - to avoid cable tangle when they load it on the plane -the last damage done was climbing up to the top of Motovun in a 75km ride on the Parazana Trail!
in taking it apart to see the controller - the guy who did the install had filled the plastic case with insulation spray foam -
right now its working again - BUT i just don’t know when it will cut out!

I see what your mean was looking at other wheelchair / TSDZ2(B) conversions online, what you be doing is putting a 3.5 kg weight up top.The gain would a reduction in bits and pieces as the controller is built in with you only needing to connect the battery, display and sensors. As the TSDZ2B ($235) is a torque sensing drive I had a worry it may be a problem but there are conversions out there already. Or the Bafang BBS01B but it is heavier at 4 kg. Parazana Trail and Motovun, I am amazed. Both these drives are serviceable, parts are available including the outer cases. If you stay with the hub drive I would look more into the specs for a unit with a lower internal ratio to keep the motor spinning a a higher speed. Most people like the Bafang seems to be better built, I like the Tongsheng TSDZ2B due to to it's torque sensing which give me more range on a charge, I have a couple on bikes with the TSDZ2(B) and have done over 2500 miles but I am light weight rider to what you done.

I see what your mean was looking at other wheelchair / TSDZ2(B) conversions online, what you be doing is putting a 3.5 kg weight up top.The gain would a reduction in bits and pieces as the controller is built in with you only needing to connect the battery, display and sensors. As the TSDZ2B ($235) is a torque sensing drive I had a worry it may be a problem but there are conversions out there already. Or the Bafang BBS01B but it is heavier at 4 kg. Parazana Trail and Motovun, I am amazed. Both these drives are serviceable, parts are available including the outer cases. If you stay with the hub drive I would look more into the specs for a unit with a lower internal ratio to keep the motor spinning a a higher speed. Most people like the Bafang seems to be better built, I like the Tongsheng TSDZ2B due to to it's torque sensing which give me more range on a charge, I have a couple on bikes with the TSDZ2(B) and have done over 2500 miles but I am light weight rider to what you done.

thanks for info - from my research there are dedicated handbikes with mid drives , but i dont see any detachable hybrid handbikes (attached a photo) . The design flaw of this style is always front wheel spin and getting your weight forward to climb, hence my concern would the weight from the mid drives be in the wrong place ? If its not an issue the Tongsheng sounds better

 

[dgc]

You may be buggered regarding the a mid-drive conversion there at the top as you seem to have a custom BB or TB (top bracket) which I think will not take a TSDZ2B mid-drive, did have a look at the proactiv-gmbh website. My initial thought then would be a Bafang MXUS XF15C 48V 500W hub motor which gives 65nm torque against 45nm for the original but that would be a wheel building job along with existing being able to work with it and I can only put that as a theory at the moment.

 

[Somo]

You may be buggered regarding the a mid-drive conversion there at the top as you seem to have a custom BB or TB (top bracket) which I think will not take a TSDZ2B mid-drive, did have a look at the proactiv-gmbh website. My initial thought then would be a Bafang MXUS XF15C 48V 500W hub motor which gives 65nm torque against 45nm for the original but that would be a wheel building job along with existing being able to work with it and I can only put that as a theory at the moment.

I really appreciate you taking the time to research - thank you. I will look into that motor, would a higher amp controller help? Its already a rebuild from the original Bionx system it came with!

 

[dgc]

As previous what you need to do is firstly test the motor and controller to see if they overheat or not when on high load hill climbing somewhere local to you. I was looking on the proactiv-gmbh site again and they do an adaption with a 1000w hub motor with I assume a 25 amp controller. It's also a case of being sure your front end and mount can take the strain. For example, the Giant Anthem has the XF15C rear hub drive and on a local steep hill climb it gets hot even though I am maintaining a good speed (12mph) on the climb, the Boardman has the TSDZ2 mid-drive fitted to it and remains cool on the same climb due to gearing. The Giant weight is 19kg and the Boardman weight is 22kg along with me at 63.5kg, my other Boardman in the avatar with the smaller battery weighs in at 18kg. So between 81.5kg and 85.5kg, not sure what your all up weight is. Going back to proactiv-gmbh their WHEEL-E traction device has the battery mounted on device to give more weight over driving wheel. See what you think, you are welcome to pick my brain, I have built quite a few e-bikes from the ground up, usually using clean used or NOS frames.

 

[Somo]

I just did a 25km ride with short hills nothing major, no heat and no error codes! This is since I removed all the insulation foam the bike tech had put around the controller in its plastic case!
Would a better controller also make a difference - if the motor itself is working?

 

[dgc]

The bike tech may have been causing the controller to fry, I usually put if I have to foam strips to hold the controller central in the plastic case but allow ventilation as the controller's body is a heat sink for the power transistors, otherwise I have 3D printed a suitable vented housing for the controller. No need for a mid-drive.

 

[Somo]

I just did a 25km ride with short hills nothing major, no heat and no error codes! This is since I removed all the insulation foam the bike tech had put around the controller in its plastic case!
Would a better controller also make a difference - if the motor itself is working?

Great to know! Should i upgrade the controller? Controller says 18+-1A type YCSV126-017-48T

 

[dgc]

You could, I would not jump in to quick as you will be moving the possible problem to the motor, from memory a 25 amp controller on 48v is usually for a 1000w motor, here again a 500w motor can easily take 25 amp for a short period depending how well built it is, I had done myself, because of your position I would look at your need for reliability, to be fair the Bafang motors are very good. Can your display shows wattage? on my Giant the KT display doe's show the motor wattage as the load rises and falls whilst riding.

 

[Somo]

You could, I would not jump in to quick as you will be moving the possible problem to the motor, from memory a 25 amp controller on 48v is usually for a 1000w motor, here again a 500w motor can easily take 25 amp for a short period depending how well built it is, I had done myself, because of your position I would look at your need for reliability, to be fair the Bafang motors are very good. Can your display shows wattage? on my Giant the KT display doe's show the motor wattage as the load rises and falls whilst riding.

Yes my display shows wattage, low to none use on flats. Hills will spike to max, think it peaks around 850

 

[dgc]

So you are peaking at 17.5 amps approximately which for arguments sake is nearly at the top of what the controller will put out, but it is not continuous otherwise the controller would then warm up, cook / fry itself, I am assuming 18 amps is the continuous output from this controller. a 25 amp controller wound give you more leeway. I always use KT controllers as they give you a continuous rating 22 amps and a peak of 35 amps if my memory is correct. You could try carrying a bit more weight and see what the watts pulled are like, any idea of the all up weight. I am still interested that proactiv-gmbh have a 1000w traction device.

 

[Somo]

So you are peaking at 17.5 amps approximately which for arguments sake is nearly at the top of what the controller will put out, but it is not continuous otherwise the controller would then warm up, cook / fry itself, I am assuming 18 amps is the continuous output from this controller. a 25 amp controller wound give you more leeway. I always use KT controllers as they give you a continuous rating 22 amps and a peak of 35 amps if my memory is correct. You could try carrying a bit more weight and see what the watts pulled are like, any idea of the all up weight. I am still interested that proactiv-gmbh have a 1000w traction device.

I think the leeway might be an advantage! When I had the issues it was long, slow climbs and was definitely at max watts for awhile. So would a 22A be more appropriate - be nice not to change my displays as I have a 500c and P850c as spare The traction device I think has no cranks as is just throttle!

 

[dgc]

See what there is be it a 22 amp or 25 amp controller, in your photo you posted it shows a standard aftermarket black magnetic disc for the PAS sensor on the opposite side to the chain-wheel, brake sensors I guess, then throttle and display all connected via circular waterproof connectors to the controller along with the red and black wires to the battery. I assume like the KT controllers and displays I use you can control max current output from the controller.

 

[dgc]

Depending where you look a 500w Bafang will handle 22 / 25 amps, and then more for short blasts, a number of people fit a thermistor (temperature-sensitive resistor) to the motor, to much of a fuss, I'd use the good old finger to see how warm the motor is getting, if I was still at work I'd check the case temp with a infrared thermometer.

 

[Somo]

Depending where you look a 500w Bafang will handle 22 / 25 amps, and then more for short blasts, a number of people fit a thermistor (temperature-sensitive resistor) to the motor, to much of a fuss, I'd use the good old finger to see how warm the motor is getting, if I was still at work I'd check the case temp with a infrared thermometer.

Would I be safer than going with 22A? Yes TriRide, Pro-Active and Batec have traction devices with 1000w and 1200w I think, they also have the benefit of having reverse!

 

[dgc]

Definitely seen 1000w, 22 or 25 amps either is the answer, before ordering, do you have a manual for the display if you do look to see if there is a max current setting, for the KT display / controller combo there is a "C5 settings are for controlling the maximum operating current". This will means you can use either controller and just dial the amps down to protect the motor, there is not a lot in it, comes down to price and size of the two controllers. Looking at 1050w or 1200w continuous output but you can dial it back to whats needed.

 

[Somo]

Definitely seen 1000w, 22 or 25 amps either is the answer, before ordering, do you have a manual for the display if you do look to see if there is a max current setting, for the KT display / controller combo there is a "C5 settings are for controlling the maximum operating current". This will means you can use either controller and just dial the amps down to protect the motor, there is not a lot in it, comes down to price and size of the two controllers. Looking at 1050w or 1200w continuous output but you can dial it back to whats needed.

I checked my display and screenshot details, I only see the possibility to limit speed which right now is unrestricted. I also changed it to 9 assist levels, does that mean the lower assist the more torque?

 

[dgc]

I looked at the user manuals for the 500C and the P850C, it seems in the advanced settings for the P850C you can adjust the maximum current put out by the controller anywhere between 6 - 50 amp, the settings I am pretty sure are retained in the controller so you can program via the P860C and then return to the 500C. I have switched displays on a KT controller before after programing it, also TSDZ2(B) one reprograms the controller and not the display. Lower assist usually reduces the speed and the amps (torque if you want to call it that).

 

[Somo]

I looked at the user manuals for the 500C and the P850C, it seems in the advanced settings for the P850C you can adjust the maximum current put out by the controller anywhere between 6 - 50 amp, the settings I am pretty sure are retained in the controller so you can program via the P860C and then return to the 500C. I have switched displays on a KT controller before after programing it, also TSDZ2(B) one reprograms the controller and not the display. Lower assist usually reduces the speed and the amps (torque if you want to call it that).

Ok well easy to switch. What setting do you recommend then - for the amp?

 

[dgc]

Myself, I would start at 20 amps, ride and check if motor is warming up on a hill climb and from there, this is the difference between a controller that is rated at 18 amp and one that has head room and will give you up to 22 / 25 amp. NOTE Before you do anything write down the settings on the existing controller, I've programed many KT controllers I can usual programed a new controller straight off the cuff, and do odd adjustments on the test ride.

 

[Somo]

Myself, I would start at 20 amps, ride and check if motor is warming up on a hill climb and from there, this is the difference between a controller that is rated at 18 amp and one that has head room and will give you up to 22 / 25 amp. NOTE Before you do anything write down the settings on the existing controller, I've programed many KT controllers I can usual programed a new controller straight off the cuff, and do odd adjustments on the test ride.

Thank you. Just trying to find a controller now and will try set up at 20amps. I will let you know what happens. Thanks again

 

[SlowCo]

The design flaw of this style is always front wheel spin and getting your weight forward to climb, hence my concern would the weight from the mid drives be in the wrong place ? If its not an issue the Tongsheng sounds better

With a wheelchair and handbike you need a second rear axle or mounting points to place the wheels backwards. That way the center of gravity moves towards the front wheel for more traction.
See my posts about this in this other handbike thread:
Handbike thread on E-S