What motor should I get if I want to test out regen breaking?

[Catatopatch]

Hi! Newbie here, Im a 4th year ECE student and want to test/make regen breaking for ebikes as my Capstone Project with two other students, I watched some videos from Justin from GRIN technologies on regen breaking as from my understanding they are one of the few only companies in the US/Canada to make regen capable ebikes, and he explains how regen breaking works really well for small EVs, where how for regen you want to go for either a direct drive motor which doesnt have a freewheel, or a geared hub motor which has an external freewheel but you can weld it in place so the motor spins with it. And we dont want a mid-drive motor as the freewheel is internal to the motor so you cant modify/weld it in place

Im fine with the first two options as the motor, but when looking online the specs of the motors Im considering doesnt really match it that much, my budget is around 100-150$ for the motor.

The motors I was considering are the two below:
Motor 1:

at 36 Volt 500 Watt Brushless Gear Motor

and Motor 2:

which can be found at 24VDC 900W 34A 2600RPM Motor Currie Electric Scooter Motor with 11 Tooth Sprocket
------------------------

Im not sure if they are direct drive/geared hub/mid drive motors, and was wondering if I can get any help or any other recommendations that is within my budget, I know that cheaper motors might have exaggerated ratings or might not fit on an actual bike, but Im also willing to just have it on a test rig like Jermey Fielding did in his "How regenerative breaking works" video on youtube (It should be more for EVs but the same concept should apply to ebikes as well), also from my understanding BLDC motors are better for regen breaking, but brushed motors can work as well so Im fine w/ both types

But yeah once again I would love if anyone can recommend some relatively cheap motors I can use to test regen breaking if the two above probably wont work. I did check out Grin Technologies shop, as well as their 9 Continent Series RH and FH212 motors, but they are too expensive for the limited budget my group has.

Thank you all!

 

[RunForTheHills]

Any direct drive hub motor should work for your purpose. You can probably pick a used one. There are more than a few old ebikes out there with bad batteries sitting in someone's garage. Shop Waterproof 48V 1200W Direct Drive Ebike Motor | eBikeling

 

[E-HP]

Hi! Newbie here, Im a 4th year ECE student and want to test/make regen breaking for ebikes as my Capstone Project with two other students, I watched some videos from Justin from GRIN technologies on regen breaking as from my understanding they are one of the few only companies in the US/Canada to make regen capable ebikes, and he explains how regen breaking works really well for small EVs, where how for regen you want to go for either a direct drive motor which doesnt have a freewheel, or a geared hub motor which has an external freewheel but you can weld it in place so the motor spins with it. And we dont want a mid-drive motor as the freewheel is internal to the motor so you cant modify/weld it in place

Im fine with the first two options as the motor, but when looking online the specs of the motors Im considering doesnt really match it that much, my budget is around 100-150$ for the motor.

The motors I was considering are the two below:
Motor 1:
View attachment 382752
at 36 Volt 500 Watt Brushless Gear Motor

and Motor 2:
View attachment 382753
which can be found at 24VDC 900W 34A 2600RPM Motor Currie Electric Scooter Motor with 11 Tooth Sprocket
------------------------

Im not sure if they are direct drive/geared hub/mid drive motors, and was wondering if I can get any help or any other recommendations that is within my budget, I know that cheaper motors might have exaggerated ratings or might not fit on an actual bike, but Im also willing to just have it on a test rig like Jermey Fielding did in his "How regenerative breaking works" video on youtube (It should be more for EVs but the same concept should apply to ebikes as well), also from my understanding BLDC motors are better for regen breaking, but brushed motors can work as well so Im fine w/ both types

But yeah once again I would love if anyone can recommend some relatively cheap motors I can use to test regen breaking if the two above probably wont work. I did check out Grin Technologies shop, as well as their 9 Continent Series RH and FH212 motors, but they are too expensive for the limited budget my group has.

Thank you all!

48V 1000W Ebike Rear Wheel Hub Motor For Electric Bicycle Brushless Gearless? | eBay

Description If you can easily convert a bicycle into an electric bicycle, why spend a lot of money to buy an electric bicycle again? This wheel hub motor, made of aluminum alloy and iron, is a great choice for you to refit your bike. All you need to do is put it on your tires to enjoy your new...

www.ebay.com

 

[stancecoke]

but Im also willing to just have it on a test rig like

I'm using an old BionX direct drive on my test bench, here with simple power resistors as load, but of course you can use a controller and do defined regen with this setup also.

 

[Catatopatch]

Any direct drive hub motor should work for your purpose. You can probably pick a used one. There are more than a few old ebikes out there with bad batteries sitting in someone's garage. Shop Waterproof 48V 1200W Direct Drive Ebike Motor | eBikeling

Hey! Thank you for the link but Im located in Canada, probably should of mentioned that in my original post my bad, is there any other motors which might be cheaper?

 

[RunForTheHills]

Sorry, I am in California. You could check out @E-HP 's suggestion on eBay. Really any direct drive hub motor will work. Even a used one from an old ebike. The geared motors are much smaller so you can usually tell by looking at it.

 

[Catatopatch]

48V 1000W Ebike Rear Wheel Hub Motor For Electric Bicycle Brushless Gearless? | eBay

Description If you can easily convert a bicycle into an electric bicycle, why spend a lot of money to buy an electric bicycle again? This wheel hub motor, made of aluminum alloy and iron, is a great choice for you to refit your bike. All you need to do is put it on your tires to enjoy your new...

www.ebay.com

Hey I really appreciate the links you sent! Unfortunately the first link from ebay does not ship to canada, I did look at your econo-e-bike link and I saw that you were previously using a MXUS 1000W slow wind 9C clone motor, which from a quick google search is a Direct Drive motor? Is this the same motor or another possible Direct Drive motor by chance?

Wheel Hub EBike Motor 36V 250W 48V 350W Brushless Geared Ebike Motor Front Rear Cassette Freehub MXUS XF07F in Alibaba.com

Discover Wheel Hub EBike Motor 36V 250W 48V 350W Brushless Geared Ebike Motor Front Rear Cassette Freehub MXUS XF07F. Browse trusted products in Alibaba.com. Fast shipping & quality guaranteed.

www.alibaba.com

 

[RunForTheHills]

Hey I really appreciate the links you sent! Unfortunately the first link from ebay does not ship to canada, I did look at your econo-e-bike link and I saw that you were previously using a MXUS 1000W slow wind 9C clone motor, which from a quick google search is a Direct Drive motor? Is this the same motor or another possible Direct Drive motor by chance?

Wheel Hub EBike Motor 36V 250W 48V 350W Brushless Geared Ebike Motor Front Rear Cassette Freehub MXUS XF07F in Alibaba.com

Discover Wheel Hub EBike Motor 36V 250W 48V 350W Brushless Geared Ebike Motor Front Rear Cassette Freehub MXUS XF07F. Browse trusted products in Alibaba.com. Fast shipping & quality guaranteed.

www.alibaba.com

That is a geared motor from Alibaba. It even says so in the description. In the picture below, the direct drive is on the left and geared motor on the right:

 

[RunForTheHills]

Try this one: 24V/36V 200W 5 Inch Electric Scooter Motor Wheel with Solid Tire 5" Electric Brushless DC Gearless Hub Motor with Hall Sensor, Replacement Wheels - Amazon Canada

 

[Catatopatch]

Try this one: 24V/36V 200W 5 Inch Electric Scooter Motor Wheel with Solid Tire 5" Electric Brushless DC Gearless Hub Motor with Hall Sensor, Replacement Wheels - Amazon Canada

Sorry for asking but is this also a Direct Drive motor and how can you tell? I mean on the title it says its BLDC Gearless Hub motor, so Im assuming its different compared to a geared hub motor, but I dont really know what else to look for in the disc to understand if its the motor I want or not

 

[RunForTheHills]

If it is gearless, it is direct drive. Most geared hub motors have a clutch/freewheel. Maybe only the GMAC from Grin doesn't. It's a great motor though out of your price range. So your best bet is to get a gearless or direct drive motor.

 

[RunForTheHills]

This is from the Grin website:

 

[Catatopatch]

If it is gearless, it is direct drive. Most geared hub motors have a clutch/freewheel. Maybe only the GMAC from Grin doesn't. It's a great motor though out of your price range. So your best bet is to get a gearless or direct drive motor.

Awesome! I didnt know that, thank you so much for the amazing info! So for the controller, what would you recommend for that BLDC Direct drive motor? From what we were planning on doing before we thought there wasnt any BLDC commercially sold here in canada (until you found one for us), we were gonna buy a VESC Controller or make a clone of it with only necessary components ourselves (as we saw there was a lot of additions to it which we probably wouldnt need?), or do you think something like a four quadrant/full H bridge controller would work instead?

Also from what we gathered online, the VESC only works for a 3 phase motor instead of a two wire motor? How can I tell if the motor you sent is a three phase or two wire connection? Just curious on that as well. Also thank you so much for all the help!

P.S. My group members was also wondering if the 200W rating is enough to show regen, as doesnt regen work better the more rpm/speed you have before breaking?

 

[RunForTheHills]

You don't need a controller to show regen. Just put a load on the motor as shown in @stancecoke 's video and measure the voltage / current put out by the motor you are now using as a generator.

 

[RunForTheHills]

Here is a motor controller with regenerative braking: Silver 48V 1000W 26A Brushless DC Sine Wave Controller 36V 750W ebike controller Regenerative Braking, Brakes - Amazon Canada

MTA: I just looked at the description and you also need to purchase their display to use regen with this controller. There were no links to the display, so I don't know how to find it. You would probably need to contact the seller for that.

 

[Catatopatch]

Here is a motor controller with regenerative braking: Silver 48V 1000W 26A Brushless DC Sine Wave Controller 36V 750W ebike controller Regenerative Braking, Brakes - Amazon Canada

MTA: I just looked at the description and you also need to purchase their display to use regen with this controller. There were no links to the display, so I don't know how to find it. You would probably need to contact the seller for that.

Awesomesauce! Another question I have regarding this, we are planning on going for a 24V or a 36V battery, but does it need to be a specific configuration? One of my group members saw that it must be a Li-Ion battery, and I also saw a lot of people using LiPo batteries as well on the reddit ebike forum and a bit on here as well, is using something like that okay? And if not is there any alternatives as they can get a bit expensive?

 

[A-DamW]

Im fine with the first two options as the motor, but when looking online the specs of the motors Im considering doesnt really match it that much, my budget is around 100-150$ for the motor.

The motors I was considering are the two below:
Motor 1:

TL;DR get Motor 1.

Motor 1 is a clone of a clone of the Cyclone 1800/3000/4000 watt motors.
All the info you never wanted to know:

new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

hi.. has anyone heard tried this kit before? http://cyclone-tw.com/order-3chain.htm i'm referring to the first kit xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [moderator edit to insert video limk] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFfw4aeajHk RFfw4aeajHk

endless-sphere.com

It is known generically as the BM1418ZXF, they make a grazillion of 'em every year in china:

BM1418ZXF at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

Even being a clone of the Cyclone, it is probably 3-10 times a beefer motor than Motor 2.

I run a Cyclone 3K left hand drive with a Vesc on my cargo bike, buttery smooth regen all the way down to walking speed.

 

[RunForTheHills]

The battery will be the most expensive component. Safety is the primary concern. You don't want to start a fire. Look for a battery that uses name brand cells and has a BMS with safety features. That said, you don't need a battery to test regen. You just need to spin the wheel and it will generate electricity. In @stancecoke 's video, he uses a second mid-drive motor to spin the test motor on his bench. That is to simulate going downhill where gravity will do the work for you.

 

[A-DamW]

Also from what we gathered online, the VESC only works for a 3 phase motor instead of a two wire motor?

VESC controllers can run DC brushed motors using 2 of the 3 phase controller wires, and setting to DC mode in Vesc-tool.

 

[Catatopatch]

The battery will be the most expensive component. Safety is the primary concern. You don't want to start a fire. Look for a battery that uses name brand cells and has a BMS with safety features. That said, you don't need a battery to test regen. You just need to spin the wheel and it will generate electricity. In @stancecoke 's video, he uses a second mid-drive motor to spin the test motor on his bench. That is to simulate going downhill where gravity will do the work for you.

What do you think of this one? For the BLDC Direct Drive motor and the ebike controller you recommended from amazon?

WILLQR 36V 6800mAh Scooter Battery 6.8Ah Replacement 10S2P Lithium Li-ion Rechargeable Battery Pack with XT60 Connector and BMS Protection Board : Amazon.ca: Health & Personal Care

WILLQR 36V 6800mAh Scooter Battery 6.8Ah Replacement 10S2P Lithium Li-ion Rechargeable Battery Pack with XT60 Connector and BMS Protection Board : Amazon.ca: Health & Personal Care

www.amazon.ca

 

[neptronix]

I'd chose a direct drive hub and a very powerful battery with a high charge rating ( so that you can get strong regen ), plus two very nice torque arms as the easiest way to experiment with it.

I love regen on fast bikes because mechanical brakes can falter when descending hills or stopping frequently from high speeds. Regen just keeps working as long as you're not exceeding the power rating of the motor. ( at that point, it will start to create notable amounts of heat )

 

[E-HP]

Hey I really appreciate the links you sent! Unfortunately the first link from ebay does not ship to canada, I did look at your econo-e-bike link and I saw that you were previously using a MXUS 1000W slow wind 9C clone motor, which from a quick google search is a Direct Drive motor? Is this the same motor or another possible Direct Drive motor by chance?

Wheel Hub EBike Motor 36V 250W 48V 350W Brushless Geared Ebike Motor Front Rear Cassette Freehub MXUS XF07F in Alibaba.com

Discover Wheel Hub EBike Motor 36V 250W 48V 350W Brushless Geared Ebike Motor Front Rear Cassette Freehub MXUS XF07F. Browse trusted products in Alibaba.com. Fast shipping & quality guaranteed.

www.alibaba.com

All of those direct drive motors with 28mm stators are referred to as 9C clones. MXUS makes many of them, and they might be relabeled by the retail seller. They don’t usually/ever describe the windings, but you can usually impute it from other info in the listings.

 

[E-HP]

Also from what we gathered online, the VESC only works for a 3 phase motor instead of a two wire motor? How can I tell if the motor you sent is a three phase or two wire connection? Just curious on that as well. Also thank you so much for all the help!

Virtually all modern ebike motors are brushless (BLDC). They will have 3 heavy gauge wires (phase wires), and if it’s sensored, it will have 5 thin gauge wires.brushed motors have two thick conductors.

 

[E-HP]

What do you think of this one? For the BLDC Direct Drive motor and the ebike controller you recommended from amazon?

WILLQR 36V 6800mAh Scooter Battery 6.8Ah Replacement 10S2P Lithium Li-ion Rechargeable Battery Pack with XT60 Connector and BMS Protection Board : Amazon.ca: Health & Personal Care

WILLQR 36V 6800mAh Scooter Battery 6.8Ah Replacement 10S2P Lithium Li-ion Rechargeable Battery Pack with XT60 Connector and BMS Protection Board : Amazon.ca: Health & Personal Care

www.amazon.ca

Junk. You actually need a pretty decent battery made with cells with a high charge rating. You could go with lipo batteries, since they have high charge and discharge ratings, although they are a more volatile chemistry, so extra care should be used.

 

[RunForTheHills]

Hi! Newbie here, Im a 4th year ECE student and want to test/make regen breaking for ebikes as my Capstone Project with two other students,

Maybe I am missing something here, but I thought this was just a bench / lab demonstration of using an electric motor as a generator. Or do you need to build an actual bicycle with regen capability?