CYC PHOTON

Gruesome said:

my bike has a Q factor close to 130mm, and the Photon 220mm

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Normal MTBs have a Q factor of about 170mm and most people don't even think about it. I rode my acoustic bike the other day, and I noticed the 50mm< Q factor far less than I noticed the 25mm longer cranks, which were awful. Of course, YMMV...

Good luck with the conversion, look forward to hearing about it.

hindesite said:

Normal MTBs have a Q factor of about 170mm and most people don't even think about it. [...]

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Me neither, when I'm on a mountain bike.

hindesite said:

Good luck with the conversion, look forward to hearing about it.

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Thank you!

I agree with a lot of this except the beauty of Bikeon is you can put it on and take it off in a couple of minutes so the bike can be used either way without messing with bottom brackets and cranks. And as for losing those gears... I never need the 2 lowest gears on my 11-32 cassette with the Photon in my rolling hills road riding with many short ~10% and even more grades. If your riding required those gears, like very steep and/or technical MTB trails perhaps, then of course, Bikeon would not work for you. But thinking about this some more I'd need to do the math and analyze this further for my gravel bike that has 700C wheels and not 26" like my Photon hardtail since that makes the overall gearing taller and it also has an 11-32t cassette. So, losing gears on that bike for the same rides may be getting close to or even be a problem.

Personally, I would not put Bikeon on a MTB or off-road use in the first place due to the exposed mechs. But for the target audience which seems to be non-techies who want to ride to the coffee shop it should be great. And I also agree that the cost is certainly steep for the capabilities it gives you.

hindesite said:

Why on earth would anyone pay MORE than the already high cost of a Photon, to lose the use of their lowest 3 gears - especially as that might be where you really want the assist in the first place.

This is essentially a hub motor equivalent, but outside the hub and out in the dirt and muck. Just doesn't make sense to me.

When you look at Bikeon and the other similar competitors (at least, those who are still around) you realise that Photon is a good deal after all.

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raylo32 said:

Personally, I would not put Bikeon on a MTB or off-road use in the first place due to the exposed mechs. But for the target audience which seems to be non-techies who want to ride to the coffee shop it should be great. And I also agree that the cost is certainly steep for the capabilities it gives you.

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I think that is right, it doesn't seem engineered for high mileage or use in dirty conditions. It sounds terrible in operation. I also suspect the torque sensor is really just a switch rather than a true sensor and is used as a way to simplify installation and to avoid extra wiring. I wonder how it copes with the user shifting down too many gears, do you end up with a mess.

But I would think that for anyone with rudimentary mech skills, something like a Bimotal Elevate would be better. There were many devices like this developed over the past 8 years or so; some as failed crowdfunded scams, very few exist now. I don't think these products or sales are good enough to count on any support in future.

Of course the same might be said of CYC, but they do seem to have developed into a viable sized company and they are doing well so far. They seem like nice people, I've found them great to deal with.

As far as "getting a coffee" is concerned, I see there is a market segment that would never consider buying an acoustic bike, but perceive that an ebike gives them a legitimacy and rationale for buying. They then ride it at such slow speeds and short distances and so seldom that an acoustic bike would have been more than enough.

hindesite said:

As far as "getting a coffee" is concerned, I see there is a market segment that would never consider buying an acoustic bike, but perceive that an ebike gives them a legitimacy and rationale for buying. They then ride it at such slow speeds and short distances and so seldom that an acoustic bike would have been more than enough.

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In North America, one reason that people don't end up putting a lot of miles on the bikes they buy is that they are likely to have a near-death encounter with a lifted truck within the first week of purchase. Then the reality kicks in, and they realize that the combination of a high percentage of psychopaths per capita and a near complete lack of safe infrastructure for pedestrians and cyclists might get them killed. The biggest barrier to frequent cycling is fear of cars and aggressive drivers. And that is not an irrational fear.

And I think that is a component of the bicycle industry apocalypse that is seldom discussed. During the height of the pandemic, and the bike boom, there was less traffic on the roads, society had slowed down, and it was just safer to be on a bike. Once everything went back to normal, it was a new normal, with drivers acting more dangerous and aggressive than ever.

hindesite said:

I think that is right, it doesn't seem engineered for high mileage or use in dirty conditions. It sounds terrible in operation. I also suspect the torque sensor is really just a switch rather than a true sensor and is used as a way to simplify installation and to avoid extra wiring. I wonder how it copes with the user shifting down too many gears, do you end up with a mess.

But I would think that for anyone with rudimentary mech skills, something like a Bimotal Elevate would be better. There were many devices like this developed over the past 8 years or so; some as failed crowdfunded scams, very few exist now. I don't think these products or sales are good enough to count on any support in future.

Of course the same might be said of CYC, but they do seem to have developed into a viable sized company and they are doing well so far. They seem like nice people, I've found them great to deal with.

As far as "getting a coffee" is concerned, I see there is a market segment that would never consider buying an acoustic bike, but perceive that an ebike gives them a legitimacy and rationale for buying. They then ride it at such slow speeds and short distances and so seldom that an acoustic bike would have been more than enough.

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Geez, I hope you are wrong, especially with regard to the suitable milage and the torque sensor. I spent a bit of time thinking about measuring torque, but could not arrive at a good solution to measure chain tension on a bike with external gears without fixing the chain position (meaning extra rollers and the accompanying losses). Then I told myself that Aram is a real mechanical engineer and spent ten years working on this, so I shouldn't worry too much if I can't come up with a good solution in half an hour. Well, I still do worry, but that's just me.
(The one thing I could see working is a learning algorithm that figures out your 'infinite torque' straight chain positions (which depend on all your sprocket and chainring diameters) while riding, and then corrects its chain deflection measurement accordingly. But that seems complicated, plus there would be some 'heuristic'/guessing (of likely gear changes) involved.)

Regarding Starbucks rides (a favorite topos also on motorcyclist forums ): I really hope this motor kit will work for our brew pub tours; we like to space our beer stops about 20 miles, and any tours >40 miles at ~15 mph I really feel the next day. And it's not because of the beer...

I really need this thing to smoothly ramp up to 100 or 150 W when going full steam, less when I'm applying less torque and power, and not get confused when I change gears. We'll see.

Regarding the pandemic and getting run over by Teslas and coal-rolling trucks: average speeds actually increased during the pandemic, and then simply did not come down much when traffic picked up again. Teslas do add to the distracted driver problem; which is why I try to stick to dedicated bike paths as much as possible, and why I need this thing to work as class 1 (the only class of e-bike allowed on dedicated bike paths in California. I think I mentioned this before.)

This is why i have a bike that can do 35-40 and take the car lane like a motorcycle when needed.

All my scariest moments were on an ebike that did somewhere around 20mph when the bike lane disappeared, or i could not accelerate quick enough to get out of the way of danger.

I live in a place where they could care less about bike infra and the bike lane is often dangerously narrow/has ridges that can throw you off, disappears mid road w/o warning, has drainage with holes large enough to suck in a bike tire, and other fun things.

Speed kills but speed differential and bad bike infrastructure, i find a lot more dangerous.

Exactly. My Photon will do 35-40 MH on throttle but only for short bursts... which is all I need on my normal rides. That can make it safer to make certain moves in traffic by reducing speed differential to cars, but it also opens up other potential motorcycle like risks, like the good old left hook car taking you out while making a left turn and they don't see you coming. So be careful.

neptronix said:

This is why i have a bike that can do 35-40 and take the car lane like a motorcycle when needed.

All my scariest moments were on an ebike that did somewhere around 20mph when the bike lane disappeared, or i could not accelerate quick enough to get out of the way of danger.

I live in a place where they could care less about bike infra and the bike lane is often dangerously narrow/has ridges that can throw you off, disappears mid road w/o warning, has drainage with holes large enough to suck in a bike tire, and other fun things.

Speed kills but speed differential and bad bike infrastructure, i find a lot more dangerous.

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received this today - 29/06/2024

Edit: My app updated automatically on 19/06/24, so thats an improvement from my previous experience.

Passcode for hall calibration appears to be 32531 though I've only tried it in preview mode and not with a real photon. It's the same code for when you want to select a firmware update file. I think the code is buried somewhere earlier in the depths of the thread but I figured I'd put it here with the words Hall Sensor Calibration for future Googlers.

Stupid question to the more motor electric inclined or versed here: couldn't you estimate pedal power or torque from a time-resolved measurement of motor load and motor speed, right at the controller, since pedal torque and power should be more or less sinusoidal, going close to zero at top dead center and bottom? You'd measure motor load and speed many times per revolution, get the pedaling frequency (as seen by the motor) from a Fourier transform, extract minimum and maximum load of that component, and you should have the pedaling power? There's probably complications due to mechanical and electrical inertia, but shouldn't this work? Or is this used already?

Gruesome said:

Or is this used already?

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Wouldn't it be easier to just use the torque sensor - if it is accurate enough?

If you look at the fields in a .fit file you'll see extensive parameters are recorded around power sensing cranksets. It probably isn't sinusoidal, since the mechanical linkages (hips, thigh, knee, calf, ankle and foot - as well as the differing muscle lengths through each part of the stroke) driving it are complex. And performance cyclists are also generating power on the upstroke too. The .fit fields even record left and right separately. Crank related fields are in bold - I think.

GOTOES_CSV timestamp position_lat position_long altitude heart_rate cadence distance speed power compressed_speed_distance grade resistance time_from_course cycle_length temperature speed_1s cycles total_cycles compressed_accumulated_power accumulated_power left_right_balance gps_accuracy vertical_speed calories vertical_oscillation stance_time_percent stance_time activity_type left_torque_effectiveness right_torque_effectiveness left_pedal_smoothness right_pedal_smoothness combined_pedal_smoothness time128 stroke_type zone ball_speed cadence256 fractional_cadence total_hemoglobin_conc total_hemoglobin_conc_min total_hemoglobin_conc_max saturated_hemoglobin_percent saturated_hemoglobin_percent_min saturated_hemoglobin_percent_max unknown61 device_index unknown66 left_pco right_pco left_power_phase left_power_phase_peak right_power_phase right_power_phase_peak enhanced_speed enhanced_altitude battery_soc motor_power vertical_ratio stance_time_balance step_length absolute_pressure depth next_stop_depth next_stop_time time_to_surface ndl_time cns_load n2_load grit flow ebike_travel_range ebike_battery_level ebike_assist_mode ebike_assist_level_percent

In my GPS I only record the first 8 fields + temperature. Barely scratching the surface here. But even heart rate and cadence are incredibly interesting, especially for us older folk. I'm riding with quite a little wireless network going on.

Of specific interest to us though would be the ability to record the motor parameters to a GPS/Bike computer, which some of the OTS bikes can now do. I'd love to have a chart of altitude with motor power, assist level, remaining battery alongside the other GPS tracked info.

Thanks for the data field info, that's interesting. At one point I was thinking about adding a torque sensor to my bike, but it seemed rather extravagant for someone who is not really training for anything. I totally see the attraction in playing with those data.

Regarding my question: the idea is to measure the human input without a torque sensor, just using the motor controller phase voltages and currents and the angular position and speed info that must be available already to run the motor.

I don't think the exact shape of the human torque curve per pedal revolution matters, what matters is that there are regular minima every pedal revolution. Those minima should show up as maxima at regular intervals (cadence) in motor load, and maybe even also speed, if the pedaler is strong and the bike light enough. (Going uphill the speed variations with every pedal stroke seem pretty obvious.) If there are no speed variations, then I guess there should still be variations in the motor current, and maybe in the phase shift between voltage and current? Unless the motor is completely overpowering the human, motor and human torque should be of the same order of magnitude, and thus the motor load variations due to the cadence variations in human torque should be observable.

Has that been tried, and it didn't work, or why is it not used? Torque sensors seem to be as expensive as motors, or even more expensive.

Gruesome said:

Torque sensors seem to be as expensive as motors, or even more expensive.

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But the Photon has (by their claims) a reasonable one built in. The issue seems to me just that the interpretation doesn't work very well - currently. Maybe CYC plan to improve their software when they have resources to do it. Even just externalising the torque sensor output directly so it can be logged and interpreted off the bike would be interesting, and might help with improving the controller's interpretation of the data.

Oh, sorry, I'm misusing this thread for my general questions and musings, since you guys seem to be having interesting discussions. This is not Photon specific at all.

Toseven DM02 in hot DUBAI
Ambient temp: 40C
Controller/Motor temp: 85C
Power: 500W-700W
Distance: 45km.
Average Speed: 42km/h


It would be interesting to see how CYC photon would perform in such conditions.

Atak_Snajpera said:

Toseven DM02 in hot DUBAI
Ambient temp: 40C
Controller/Motor temp: 85C
Power: 500W-700W
Distance: 45km.
Average Speed: 42km/h

It would be interesting to see how CYC photon would perform in such conditions.

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On terrain like that that, it’s hard to say. In 35C weather, the Photon can usually stay at or above 500W on easy terrain. The problems start on steep terrain. We see members in this thread with the Photon on a road bike with no complaints. So things like rolling resistance and gravity play a big role in how hot the Photon gets. And you’ve got another thing that would work in the Photon’s favor: small wheels. The Photon is an insanely high crank-rpm drive that doesn’t like to get lugged or bogged down. Small wheels would help with that.

Is the grindy noise in your vid from the DM02 or something loose on the bike? I’ve noticed that the DM02 makes an unpleasant grinding sound in several videos. Sorry, I’m very sensitive to motor sound, and it’s a personal pet peeve.

We will be close to 38C this week, and I can do another hill climb ride and report back.

On another note, look at all those cyclists on that wide, and perfectly maintained separated bike path. Wonderful to see. I even saw a rollerblader in your vid. And all them out exercising in 105F degrees!

I find the behavior portrayed in the video a bit obnoxious: why does that e-cyclist find it necessary to use the bike path at 45 km/h (almost 30 mph), using 700 Watt of motor power? Obviously it's not to get from A to B, as it is a closed loop circuit.
They could have gotten the same or a better work out with less motor assistance at 30 km/h (20 mph), riding the speed of the other bike path users. I understand the arguments for the need for higher speed when riding in mixed traffic. In this video the speed seems maladjusted, and a good example of how to NOT use an e-bike.

Atak_Snajpera said:

It would be interesting to see how CYC photon would perform in such conditions.

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I think it would be fine, the speed is high so plenty of airflow and the terrain is dead flat. That rollerblader was going fast.

WHY would you limit the top speed assist by power level? Makes no sense to me. If the going is easy and I only want a L1 light assist, I might still want to ride at 45k/hr as I do on my Photon.

Exactly. That was my first change, to raise the speed limits across the board. Only folks who may need those lower limits, at least in street mode, live in places where they have tighter laws and might get stopped and checked. On flat roads and on downhills you don't want the motor to be literally holding you back.

hindesite said:

I think it would be fine, the speed is high so plenty of airflow and the terrain is dead flat. That rollerblader was going fast.

WHY would you limit the top speed assist by power level? Makes no sense to me. If the going is easy and I only want a L1 light assist, I might still want to ride at 45k/hr as I do on my Photon.

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Gruesome said:

They could have gotten the same or a better work out with less motor assistance at 30 km/h (20 mph), riding the speed of the other bike path users.

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Yeah, but what would they have done if going slower? Enjoy the scenery?

I've always enjoyed the time I've spent in Dubai, but this cycling culture is very different to what we see where I live. That ebike seems well out of place on that track. Hope he was wearing lycra, at least

hindesite said:

Yeah, but what would they have done if going slower? Enjoy the scenery?

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For one, they would have been considerate to the other bike path users by avoiding unnecessary passing. But clearly that is not a big factor in their decision making.

hindesite said:

I've always enjoyed the time I've spent in Dubai, but this cycling culture is very different to what we see where I live. That ebike seems well out of place on that track. Hope he was wearing lycra, at least

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Couldn't agree more; it really seemed out of place.

Yesterday I cycled (no motor yet, but it should arrive this week, I hope ) 80 miles in Nervagon's neck of the wood, up to the end of the bike path at the entrance to the San Gabriel canyon. It was quite hot. I can't imagine cycling in Dubai, except maybe at night?

Gruesome said:

For one, they would have been considerate to the other bike path users by avoiding unnecessary passing. But clearly that is not a big factor in their decision making.

Couldn't agree more; it really seemed out of place.

Yesterday I cycled (no motor yet, but it should arrive this week, I hope ) 80 miles in Nervagon's neck of the wood, up to the end of the bike path at the entrance to the San Gabriel canyon. It was quite hot. I can't imagine cycling in Dubai, except maybe at night?

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It looks like you already pulled the trigger, so I might be a little late.
It was a dude on this forum who build a very cool friction drive. Low power and very compact.
I wouldn't mind to put it on my road trike.

I actually looked at that and related threads, but it is not something you can buy as far as I could tell.

The 4000+km test video by Aram from BikeOn has an interesting comment on friction drives, as he uses friction to drive the power meters. Quite a bit of tire left on the floor there, in the shape of tiny little crumbs....

Obviously your mind is set. Good for you.