CYC PHOTON


TLDW: my personal takeaway:

The DM02 is a robust motor with a delicate controller.
The Photon is a delicate (heat-sensitive) motor with a robust controller.

Sustained power level on DM02 is 500W.
My sustained power level on Photon when I need it to do mid drive stuff in 23C weather is also 500W.
Both motors are nearly identical in footprint and power.
DM02 is held back by the mediocre internal controller.
Photon is held back by poor thermal design.

Photon has the better torque sensing and better tuned riding experience, and user experience, ie app tuning, firmware updates, etc.

If you already have a Photon, the DM02 could very well be a downgrade, all things considered.
If you don't have a Photon, the DM02 could get you 80%-90% of the experience at 1/3 the price, depending on your situation.

Photon is more flexible with what bikes it can be installed on. Some bikes will not even have the option of installing the DM02.

Neither motor is a great choice for q-factor sensitive riders.
Neither motor is for throttle jockeys.

Toseven has headroom to improve the DM02 with a better controller, and small improvements.
CYC is pretty much limited by their design choices with the Photon.
 
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raylo32 said:
So I did the firmware update a few weeks ago and am just starting to get back to riding following my hip replacement, which is doing fantastic, and found that my settings seem to have been wiped and everything is back to factory. Anyone else? Not a big deal since I mostly ramped up the throttle to be full power for all the levels in race mode since the only time I use it is for brief beyond pedaling speed runs. Easy enough to go back in and fix that. I haven't looked yet bit was wondering, is there perhaps some way in the app to save those settings before doing updates?
Click to expand...
I did the update a while ago, but don't remember losing my settings on either Photon equipped bike. I did tweak a few power settings down a bit, and set the default mode to street (400, 800, 1200 watts), for summertime and admittedly some precaution.

I'll be looking at the settings again over the next few days, as I'm upping the chainring tooth counts (34T to 38T, 38T to 42T) on both bikes and I'll might need to tweak the assist level delivery a touch too. Unfortunately my Photon bikes don't get ridden much, as my main go-to bike is a grocery-getter, otherwise I'm riding a recently completed hub build and getting used to its behaviors.
 
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I decided to up the chainring tooth count on a photon bike, and so, reminded of the problems CYC Photon owners have had with backing off the chainring retaining cap, I decided to splurge a little on the special CYC chainring retaining cap tool and hopefully some better Truvativ self-extracting crank bolts.

To fit the cap tool the spindle has to come out, so the left crank and the securing hardware has to come off. The right crank can stay on.

I had installed the Truvativ crank bolts a few weeks ago, and self-extracting the crank went nicely. The bolts were still tight after the last ride, and pulled the crank arm off without issue. The tool recess machining is quite deep, so the hex wrench/socket stays put.

The cap tool has five pins, and sits almost flush to the retaining cap. The center of the tool is threaded (M11 or M12 maybe), so a long bolt could be threaded through the spindle to lock down the tool, I suspect. A 22mm wrench or socket, along with a chain whip, is also needed.

I'm glad I had the tool. The retaining cap was very tight - much tighter than I initially installed it with the supplied pin wrench. I locked the chain whip under my knee, which freed up my hands to 1.) hold the cap tool & wrench flush, then to 2.) whack the end of the longish 22mm combination wrench with a rubber mallet. It took a couple of hard hits to get the retaining ring lose. Having a long bolt holding down the cap tool would have made the job a little easier.

Once the chainring was off, I checked the motor innards for contamination, then very lightly greased the new chainring splines and the retaining cap threads with grease, per CYC's comment on the subject. CYC mentions using a copper-based, anti-seize type grease. I used my on-hand Mobil one synthetic, and very little of it.
 
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Thanks for the reminder, I just ordered the tool. I had the chainring off once after my first install and it wasn't that difficult, but that was a long time ago and won't be so easy next time. I have both copper and nickel based anti-seize and will apply some if and when I need to pull the chainring.

Mongo said:
I decided to up the chainring tooth count on a photon bike, and so, reminded of the problems CYC Photon owners have had with backing off the chainring retaining cap, I decided to splurge a little on the special CYC chainring retaining cap tool and hopefully some better Truvativ self-extracting crank bolts.

To fit the cap tool the spindle has to come out, so the left crank and the securing hardware has to come off. The right crank can stay on.

I had installed the Truvativ crank bolts a few weeks ago, and self-extracting the crank went nicely. The bolts were still tight after the last ride, and pulled the crank arm off without issue. The tool recess machining is quite deep, so the hex wrench/socket stays put.

The cap tool has five pins, and sits almost flush to the retaining cap. The center of the tool is threaded (M11 or M12 maybe), so a long bolt could be threaded through the spindle to lock down the tool, I suspect. A 22mm wrench or socket, along with a chain whip, is also needed.

I'm glad I had the tool. The retaining cap was very tight - much tighter than I initially installed it with the supplied pin wrench. I locked the chain whip under my knee, which freed up my hands to 1.) hold the cap tool & wrench flush, then to 2.) whack the end of the longish 22mm combination wrench with a rubber mallet. It took a couple of hard hits to get the retaining ring lose. Having a long bolt holding down the cap tool would have made the job a little easier.

Once the chainring was off, I checked the motor innards for contamination, then very lightly greasing the new chainring splines and the retaining cap threads with grease, per CYC's comment on the subject. CYC mentions using a copper-based, anti-seize type grease. I used my on-hand Mobil one synthetic, and very little of it.
Click to expand...
 
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So my DMD (dual mid drive) setup is presently reverted back to Just the CYC Photon as of last night. It's getting really hot here. I will probably go on a Saturday afternoon ride, and it will be 95F degrees... and summer officially just started today... jeez.

So I will do a 95F degree Photon climb test. I already know it will down-throttle, but I need to how low the power output will drop. If 480W-500W is already the basement, then the Photon still performs competitively against small DIY mid drives such as the Toseven DM02 despite not living up to the advertised nominal rating of 750W. But if I drop down to 250W-350W, then a DM02 would be a clear upgrade if the DM02 can remain at its rated 500W nominal under the same conditions.

So if the Photon can still put out close to 500W in this weather, I might keep it and wait for the Proton, and hope that it is a more conventional in-runner with decent heat shedding. If the Photon drops down to 350W, it probably won't be staying on the bike.

I reached out to a vendor whom I won't name regarding the Bafang M635. The feedback I got is that it is not ready ready for prime time, is completely locked down, and this vendor is considering no longer selling it. The opinion of the vendor is that the Toseven DM01 is essentially the torque sensing successor to the BBSHD at this point.

So it looks like the future of DIY mid drives is in the hands of just 2 companies moving forward (if you want anything remotely quiet). You have CYC at the high end with their first audible but tolerable offering in the Photon, and Toseven as the budget newcomer. The silent but deadly BBSHD will have it's place in history, but Bafang has abdicated the throne.
 
All my settings were indeed back to factory, but no big deal. I went into the app today and fixed that... I made L1 in street mode down to 350 watts for an economy setting and reset the throttle to 1200W across the board both street and race. I may bump race L3 throttle back up to 2000W but that can't be used for very long at all, especially in summer with an already warm motor from pedaling. I need to see how she goes at 1200W and see if that is fast enough in my traffic situations. Oh, I also got rid of the ridiculous 16MPH street speed limit. I want to ride low assist sometimes but I will still often be going more than 16 MPH. LOL.

I have been doing my hip replacement rehab rides in Race L1 mostly and that seems a good spot at 500W. Still get a good fast ride and a good workout and good battery range. I may try an economy run in street mode one of these days for a longer ride... although I have been only been using about 6 Ah out my 11Ah super sharks on my 30 mile rides and coming back with ~53v.
Mongo said:
I did the update a while ago, but don't remember losing my settings on either Photon equipped bike. I did tweak a few power settings down a bit, and set the default mode to street (400, 800, 1200 watts), for summertime and admittedly some precaution.

I'll be looking at the settings again over the next few days, as I'm upping the chainring tooth counts (34T to 38T, 38T to 42T) on both bikes and I'll might need to tweak the assist level delivery a touch too. Unfortunately my Photon bikes don't get ridden much, as my main go-to bike is a grocery-getter, otherwise I'm riding a recently completed hub build and getting used to its behaviors.
Click to expand...
 
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I got in a 93F degree/33.9C (the average of my thermometers) one hour ride on the Photon today.

On the long 10% climb portion the Photon was able to hold mostly around 500W until near the end where it began bottoming out at around 380W. It didn't stay in the 300s long. It would bounce back up to 500-ish, and then spike back down to 380-ish. Motor temps reached upper 80'sC. I don't think I ever saw the motor temp go beyond 90C.

The Photon was limited to 750W in the settings for this ride. There were portions of the ride that the motor was running at 700W-750W like on a flat riding in traffic with PAS 3, but as soon as I hit a headwind the Photon dropped to the 500's.

Not sure how I feel about this. One the one hand, 380W being the new basement is not great, but on the other hand I was expecting even worse considering performance in 75F degrees.
 
nervagon said:

TLDW: my personal takeaway:

The DM02 is a robust motor with a delicate controller.
The Photon is a delicate (heat-sensitive) motor with a robust controller.

Sustained power level on DM02 is 500W.
My sustained power level on Photon when I need it to do mid drive stuff in 23C weather is also 500W.
Both motors are nearly identical in footprint and power.
DM02 is held back by the mediocre internal controller.
Photon is held back by poor thermal design.

Photon has the better torque sensing and better tuned riding experience, and user experience, ie app tuning, firmware updates, etc.

If you already have a Photon, the DM02 could very well be a downgrade, all things considered.
If you don't have a Photon, the DM02 could get you 80%-90% of the experience at 1/3 the price, depending on your situation.

Photon is more flexible with what bikes it can be installed on. Some bikes will not even have the option of installing the DM02.

Neither motor is a great choice for q-factor sensitive riders.
Neither motor is for throttle jockeys.

Toseven has headroom to improve the DM02 with a better controller, and small improvements.
CYC is pretty much limited by their design choices with the Photon.
Click to expand...
And he didn't even bother to install latest firmware from June 2024 .

to7motor.com

Program Updating Instructions

Explore our guide for e-bike controller and display program updates. Detailed, step-by-step instructions for enthusiasts and professionals
to7motor.com to7motor.com

His opinions are based on old firmware from 2023 year. ToSeven is updating their firmware like crazy. Atleast once a month. This clearly shows that they are listening to user feedback. Soon or later they will reach 99% of photon level and it is going to be a game over for cyc.

BTW. It is funny that ~1200 euro motor gives you access to only 3 levels of assists and only two display options.
 
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With a torque sensor drive you don't need a bunch of different levels of assist. Just pedal harder or easier. I remember the TSDZ2 on OSF people were making a big deal out of having 9 (or was it 7?) levels of assist. Total overkill. I set mine to 3 or 5 levels and that was plenty. I can see where this mentality for many levels come from, the PAS motors. That is where you need a bunch.

Is ToSeven ever going to go to wireless firmware updates with an app? That might get me to try one. I don't miss hassling with the ST controller on my TDSZ2 to update both motor controller and display a couple times a year. That got to be a real PITA.

Atak_Snajpera said:
And he didn't even bother to install latest firmware from June 2024 .

to7motor.com

Program Updating Instructions

Explore our guide for e-bike controller and display program updates. Detailed, step-by-step instructions for enthusiasts and professionals
to7motor.com to7motor.com

His opinions are based on old firmware from 2023 year. ToSeven is updating their firmware like crazy. Atleast once a month. This clearly shows that they are listening to user feedback. Soon or later they will reach 99% of photon level and it is going to be a game over for cyc.

BTW. It is funny that ~1200 euro motor gives you access to only 3 levels of assists and only two display options.
Click to expand...
 
@Atak_Snajpera CYC is mimicking the ECO, TRAIL, TURBO assist model from brands like Specialized. And it works fine.

I was just watching a 6 year old video from Luna where they measured a Specialized Turbo Levo putting out 660W sustained, 700W peak. Those big brand ebikes are putting out more power than people realize, and for years now. I think the 250W rating confuses those riders into thinking that all anyone would ever need is 250W.

But anyway, what I’m wondering is how do the ToSeven drives handle the heat.

Edit: Here's that Luna video measuring the output of the specialized (Brose) drive:
 
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nervagon said:
@Atak_Snajpera CYC is mimicking the ECO, TRAIL, TURBO assist model from brands like Specialized. And it works fine.

I was just watching a 6 year old video from Luna where they measured a Specialized Turbo Levo putting out 660W sustained, 700W peak. Those big brand ebikes are putting out more power than people realize, and for years now. I think the 250W rating confuses those riders into thinking that all anyone would ever need is 250W.

But anyway, what I’m wondering is how do the ToSeven drives handle the heat.

Edit: Here's that Luna video measuring the output of the specialized (Brose) drive:
Click to expand...
The truth lies in display and controller. They are not mimicking anything by design. They simply do not know how to add more levels.
It was explained in one of their Q&A videos.
 
Atak_Snajpera said:
The truth lies in display and controller. They are not mimicking anything by design. They simply do not know how to add more levels.
It was explained in one of their Q&A videos.
Click to expand...

That makes no sense. The display looks to be the same as the eggrider which has 9 levels of assist with my BBSHD, and CYC controls the firmware for the controller.

But can you please explain why you need more than 6 levels of assist on a torque sensor? Two modes, road and race, each with their own three tune-able assist levels. I have never felt like I needed more assist levels on the Photon... but lesser torque sensors might, and cadence sensors definitely do. This seems like a weird thing to be hung up on.
 
3 levels is not enough. 5 is fine. 9 is too much. End of story.
I have CYC STEALTH gen1 with x6 controller and I have the same problem. Only 3 levels.
If you set more than 3 levels on display scaling is totally broken.
 
Photon: 750W: 3 assist levels: 233W of power modulation per assist level
Stealth: 1500W: 3 assist levels: 500W of power modulation per assist level

Stealth at 5 levels of assist: 300W of power modulation per assist level (still worse than Photon)

As you can see, it's not the same, is it? It depends on the power band of the motor.

End of story.
 
nervagon said:
Photon: 750W: 3 assist levels: 233W of power modulation per assist level
Stealth: 1500W: 3 assist levels: 500W of power modulation per assist level

Stealth at 5 levels of assist: 300W of power modulation per assist level (still worse than Photon)

As you can see, it's not the same, is it? It depends on the power band of the motor.

End of story.
Click to expand...
You do realize that you need one level reserved as ECO (max 100W) in order to reduce voltage sag at low level of charge ,right?
In that case You end up with only 2 usable levels. Not enough!
 
Atak_Snajpera said:
You do realize that you need one level reserved as ECO (max 100W) in order to reduce voltage sag at low level of charge ,right?
In that case You end up if only 2 usable levels. Not enough!
Click to expand...

You do realize that your amount of voltage sag depends on your battery, right? I have a 6P pack. Sag is not a big problem for me, and I haven't run it to dead on a ride yet.

But as I mentioned before, you can configure your street mode for 100W max at level 1, and race for 300W max at level 1. Doesn't it make sense to switch over to street mode when your battery is almost dead? There is already a solution for this. Practically speaking, you have 6 configurable levels of assist. You just said that you only need 5. So what is the issue here?
 
Photon really has 6 levels. 3 in street mode and 3 in race mode. And if you need a 100W bailout level you can make street L1 100w... which is not a bad idea, actually. Well, maybe 150 or 200W would be low enough. And even if you don't do that ahead of time if you find yourself in a low SOC situation you can make a 100W level in about 30 seconds via the app. Not like ToSeven where you need cables, computers and half an hour.

Atak_Snajpera said:
3 levels is not enough. 5 is fine. 9 is too much. End of story.
I have CYC STEALTH gen1 with x6 controller and I have the same problem. Only 3 levels.
If you set more than 3 levels on display scaling is totally broken.
Click to expand...
 
nervagon said:
You do realize that your amount of voltage sag depends on your battery, right? I have a 6P pack. Sag is not a big problem for me, and I haven't run it to dead on a ride yet.

But as I mentioned before, you can configure your street mode for 100W max at level 1, and race for 300W max at level 1. Doesn't it make sense to switch over to street mode when your battery is almost dead? There is already a solution for this. Practically speaking, you have 6 configurable levels of assist. You just said that you only need 5. So what is the issue here?
Click to expand...
You do realize that voltage sag is much higher when voltage is near cutoff point (<42V) than at 54V? I have 48V 25ah and I see much bigger voltage sag when voltage drops below 42V.

222915_original.png
 
raylo32 said:
Photon really has 6 levels. 3 in street mode and 3 in race mode. And if you need a 100W bailout level you can make street L1 100w... which is not a bad idea, actually. Well, maybe 150 or 200W would be low enough. And even if you don't do that ahead of time if you find yourself in a low SOC situation you can make a 100W level in about 30 seconds via the app. Not like ToSeven where you need cables, computers and half an hour.
Click to expand...
In toseven everything is configurable via display! You do not need another fancy app on the phone!
You can configure how many levels you want. How much power , speed limit, torque sensor sensitivity and much more. You can even configure how voltage in battery is translated to percent on display. Before commenting please do your homework.
 
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That sounds a lot like TSDZ2 on OSF and should work pretty well. I could live with 5 levels even though they will almost be too close to each other, but having 3 in each mode really works just fine and is plenty. YMMV.

Atak_Snajpera said:
In toseven everything is configurable via display! You do not need another fancy app on the phone!
You can configure how many levels you want. How much power , speed limit, torque sensor sensitivity and much more. You can even configure how voltage in battery is translated to percent on display. Before commenting please do your homework.
Click to expand...
 
Atak_Snajpera said:
Not enough!
Click to expand...
First thing I do is set the lowest setting to 100W to extend range in any case - that's what legs are for. I've been using 3 levels for over a year now and it is fine, I don't need more.

Of course, there is also the option of using the throttle for a bit of a boost - which gives effectively gives you 4 levels (or even 6 if you set it up right).

You can proclaim as loudly and as often as you like that 3 levels isn't enough, but it works just fine for me. YMMV.
 
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