In a bit of a dilemma...

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wokpebble

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I've wanted an ebike for the past 2 years for local errands and pleasure but I'm very indecisive.

I first wanted a Juiced Ripracer, but it's out of stock each time I visit the site. Maybe it's bad luck, but I liked it's style, compactness, its (supposed) performance.

Then I fell down the rabbit hole of youtube reviews, which are sponsored and skewed, so they're hard to take at face value.

Then I considered Lectric since they're very common where I live. I didn't immediately see any problems with it and I almost bought one a few days ago, until I saw another very similar but different brand bike. I did some reading and I learned that most ebike companies selling cheap ebikes are ordering and customizing ebikes from China. Most companies in the US order from the same manufacturer, that is why they look almost identical. I didn't want something like that. This is my understanding, so correct me if I'm mistaken.

I started reading about diy ebikes. Repairability and customization are a big win for me. I like to have tools that I have 100% control over. Now my hesitation is choosing a bike as a "base" to work with since I don't own a bike now. Do I just go to a big box store and get something if I don't have a bike shop in my neighborhood?

Considering all of this, what do you think I should do?
 
First you should clarify how and where you want to use your bike.

Used maret would be my first choice to look for a good donor bike.
 
Small wheel fat tire e-bikes are bad bikes, which is why they didn't exist until motor power was a given.

I tell folks all the time like I'm telling you now: Any bike that sucks before you add motor power, still sucks after you add motor power. Don't fall for it; riding one of those things marks you as a clueless n00b.

Do build your own. There are so many personal, practical, and cost benefits to it that it's foolish to let somebody else screw it up for you. And start with a bike you can enjoy without supplementary power, that fits your body and your riding style. Don't get a garbage quality bicycle-shaped object from a department store that can't and won't repair it or supply replacement parts.
 
Chalo said:
Do build your own (...) And start with a bike you can enjoy without supplementary power, that fits your body and your riding style.
Click to expand...

That is a very good advice, but unfortunately not all good bikes are easy to convert, so better ask here before buying.
 
Chalo said:
Small wheel fat tire e-bikes are bad bikes, which is why they didn't exist until motor power was a given.

I tell folks all the time like I'm telling you now: Any bike that sucks before you add motor power, still sucks after you add motor power. Don't fall for it; riding one of those things marks you as a clueless n00b.

Do build your own. There are so many personal, practical, and cost benefits to it that it's foolish to let somebody else screw it up for you. And start with a bike you can enjoy without supplementary power, that fits your body and your riding style. Don't get a garbage quality bicycle-shaped object from a department store that can't and won't repair it or supply replacement parts.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the insight. I think I will diy, but how do I know what's a good bike fit for me? I think that's my main issue here. I may have to travel to a bike shop some place, but what do I ask them? Is it like trying on shoes? It sounds like this, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Az. said:
That is a very good advice, but unfortunately not all good bikes are easy to convert, so better ask here before buying.
Click to expand...
Is there a known list of easy bikes to do conversions?
 
wokpebble said:
Is there a known list of easy bikes to do conversions?
Click to expand...
There isn't a list, but there are characteristics that are desired when evaluating whether a bike is a good candidate for conversion. But, some of that depends on what type of conversion you'll be doing (hub motor front or rear, mid drive, etc.). A place with sufficient room to easily mount the battery is an example of something required regardless of which route you take.

Take a moment to describe what you'll be using the bike for, as Az mentioned, as well as where you'll be riding and the terrain (on road, off road, hills, etc.), if you want specific advice.
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How to get the proper advice, read before asking

Welcome to ES****Do this before your first post or now (it's retroactive)***** This is a worldwide forum, so please go to the User Control Panel, select Profile, and then enter your city, state/province, and country into the Location field (country minimum) and save it. Once done, your location...
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Forum administrator neptronix recently started a DIY buildup with a donor bike from bikesdirect.com:

endless-sphere.com

BSOs: Bikesdirect Motobecane 300HT or Gravity Basecamp? Unboxed on pg. 2

Howdy folks. So i've got 3 recumbents, all which need fabrication of some sort, and don't have the space or time.. But i've been off ebikes for a few years now, and i really don't like it. I was thinking of putting together another upright, and i saw this fine BSO: Save Up to 60% Off Mountain...
endless-sphere.com endless-sphere.com

endless-sphere.com

2024 Go to budget doner bike shaped object

What is the easiest cheap online order new bike these days that is excellent for electric diy conversions? I have a really fun 1990's chromoly Gary Fisher with 2015 era 26" 10T Mac and 52V Triangle battery, but I really want modern disc brakes. The MAC motor at that time I believe had problems...
endless-sphere.com endless-sphere.com
 
If you want a small diameter tire bike (for compactness, etc.) I would look into a mini velo like this one (Neutrino Frameset):


1721333812993.png

Like this one (which is a Bianchi Mini Velo):

1721337951861.png

or like this one from bikesdirect.com:

Top Rated, Best Mini Velo, Save Up to 60% Off Bike Shop Quality Fast Agile, CrMo, Mini-Velo, Compact Commuter Bikes Mercier Nano Mini-Velo, Aluminum Rims, Shimano Shifting w/Aluminum Caliper Brakes

Top Rated, Best Mini Velo, Save Up to 60% Off Bike Shop Quality Fast Agile, CrMo, Mini-Velo, Compact Commuter Bikes Mercier Nano Mini-Velo, Aluminum Rims, Shimano Shifting w/Aluminum Caliper Brakes
bikesdirect.com

1721336476721.png

(The Bikesdirect.com and Bianchi mini velos have 130mm rear spacing. That will make finding and fitting a rear hub motor more difficult*. However, a 100mm front hub motor would be easy to find and a straight drop in.)

One nice thing about small diameter wheels is they work great with hub motors (particularly non geared direct drives but they can also help geared hub motors work better depending on the winding and gear reduction).

Also the q factor on a bike these (which have 68mm BB) will be much narrower than what you find on a derailleur 20"x 4" tire bike. The narrower q factor is better for maximum pedal power as well submaximal pedal power efficiency. Narrow q factor is even a bit more aero as well.

*Some people here advocate spreading a 130mm steel rear triangle to 135mm but I wouldn't do it. The drop outs will no longer be parallel to each other.
 
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We'll help you build your own badass bike that you can wrench on long term without getting screwed by proprietary electronics.

How fast do you want to go, how far do you what to go? what's your budget?

If you want simple, repairable, and cheap, take an old or new 26er off ebay or local classifieds that has 135mm dropouts and strap a $250 hub motor kit and $500 battery and $50 torque arms and you've got an ebike with little to no proprietary crap, a decent amount of power, and components that tend to last.

You want real power and awesome range? you're lookin' at $1000-$1500 on top of the cost of a bike.

I'm a big fan of putting a 24" rear on a 26" MTB, the smaller the diameter of the wheel, the higher power the hub can push, and you also get slack geometry.

This soon to be 40mph bike was built on a $138 shipped bikeisland bike w/some upgrades:

20240704_113332-jpg.355808
 
Don't let our dislikes keep your from going fat tire bike. A lot of people like the Riprider, that's why there's none in stock. A lot of folks like LEctric too. IT's not e-biking as I like it, but it still gets you around.

I had already converted about six ebikes when I bought a $769 Ecotric fat tire folder in 2019. Not a bad bike at all. It just needed a better controller and alloy rims. I did the controller, and bought the rims, but never installed them. I was goofing around eunning it at 60 volts and blew up the electronics. Had to pedal it home w/o power, and like Chalo said, it sure is a crap bike if I can't run it w/o a motor. So it's gone. I don't like 20" fat tires, but other folks can ride them.
 
Az. said:
First you should clarify how and where you want to use your bike.

Used maret would be my first choice to look for a good donor bike.
Click to expand...
E-HP said:
There isn't a list, but there are characteristics that are desired when evaluating whether a bike is a good candidate for conversion. But, some of that depends on what type of conversion you'll be doing (hub motor front or rear, mid drive, etc.). A place with sufficient room to easily mount the battery is an example of something required regardless of which route you take.

Take a moment to describe what you'll be using the bike for, as Az mentioned, as well as where you'll be riding and the terrain (on road, off road, hills, etc.), if you want specific advice.
endless-sphere.com

How to get the proper advice, read before asking

Welcome to ES****Do this before your first post or now (it's retroactive)***** This is a worldwide forum, so please go to the User Control Panel, select Profile, and then enter your city, state/province, and country into the Location field (country minimum) and save it. Once done, your location...
endless-sphere.com endless-sphere.com
Click to expand...
neptronix said:
We'll help you build your own badass bike that you can wrench on long term without getting screwed by proprietary electronics.

How fast do you want to go, how far do you what to go? what's your budget?

If you want simple, repairable, and cheap, take an old or new 26er off ebay or local classifieds that has 135mm dropouts and strap a $250 hub motor kit and $500 battery and $50 torque arms and you've got an ebike with little to no proprietary crap, a decent amount of power, and components that tend to last.

You want real power and awesome range? you're lookin' at $1000-$1500 on top of the cost of a bike.

I'm a big fan of putting a 24" rear on a 26" MTB, the smaller the diameter of the wheel, the higher power the hub can push, and you also get slack geometry.

This soon to be 40mph bike was built on a $138 shipped bikeisland bike w/some upgrades:

20240704_113332-jpg.355808
Click to expand...
I thought about this

- Compactness (which was answered earlier) I'd like to put it in the back of my 07 Corolla trunk
- Price: $1,500. I'm not sure if that's too low or too high.
- Purpose: Mainly for errands in a 5-10 mile radius. This includes groceries, trips to the post office, visiting family who live about 10 miles from me.
- Terrain: City streets with bad upkeep. We have plenty of potholes here during winter months and I'd like to consider that.
- Performance: I'll be riding alongside cars and the speed limit here is 30 so, I'll need to accelerate quickly from 0-15mph. Otherwise, it's mostly flat city road so I don't need to worry much about hills, thankfully.
- Battery: This one is tricky. I thought about the UL certified batteries in case my home insurance has a problem with a diy bike. I really doubt this would become an issue, but with the uneasiness toward ebikes from the media, I wouldn't totally dismiss it.
 
wokpebble said:
I thought about this

- Compactness (which was answered earlier) I'd like to put it in the back of my 07 Corolla trunk
Click to expand...

You know, with most MTBs, if you take the front wheel off, you can stuff a large size frame into the backseat of a car like that. I have an all axle motor, so it's easy to get the rear wheel off ( quick release + 1 bolt ). Having a 24" rear wheel helps here :)

wokpebble said:
- Price: $1,500. I'm not sure if that's too low or too high.
Click to expand...

Get a cheap used or new bike and that price is totally possible

wokpebble said:
- Purpose: Mainly for errands in a 5-10 mile radius. This includes groceries, trips to the post office, visiting family who live about 10 miles from me.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you don't need a big battery!

wokpebble said:
- Terrain: City streets with bad upkeep. We have plenty of potholes here during winter months and I'd like to consider that.
- Performance: I'll be riding alongside cars and the speed limit here is 30 so, I'll need to accelerate quickly from 0-15mph. Otherwise, it's mostly flat city road so I don't need to worry much about hills, thankfully.
- Battery: This one is tricky. I thought about the UL certified batteries in case my home insurance has a problem with a diy bike. I really doubt this would become an issue, but with the uneasiness toward ebikes from the media, I wouldn't totally dismiss it.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you need a hardtail with a suspension seat post or dual suspension given your roads.

UL certification is not that important, build quality is more important. em3ev.com and ebikes.ca both make fantastic quality batteries.
 
For crappy roads, you'll probably want a sturdy well built bike with at least front suspension and a suspension seat post. There are a few stretches of a couple blocks I need to travel on crappy roads, and it feels like my entire non-suspension bike is rattling and about to fail lol. Those small bikes in the first post look like they'd crack in two if they hit a pothole or a rough stretch of road; you might fit a full size suspension bike minus front wheel in a Corolla trunk, though if you needed to do this every day, you might find it inconvenient to have to disassemble and heft around a heavy ebike. I need to drive my kids to school, which is on the way to my work. For me, the solution was a $100 receiver hitch from UHaul for my '11 Subaru Impreza. I DIYd the hitch and bought a cheapo Craigslist hitch mountable bike rack. I find this much more convenient than stuffing a bike into a trunk every morning, as I just need to hoist it onto the rack and clamp it into place, which takes seconds. In the school year. I take my ebike to my kids school every day and park nearby so I can ride my ebike the rest of the way to my work.
 
Hummina Shadeeba said:
I got one of these and widened the rear with a threaded rod, nuts, and washers, and added a Mac geared hub. Was a great cheap bike.

Do u want gears?
Do u want to be pedaling or make essentially a scooter with a throttle?
Click to expand...

That one must have 120mm rear spacing because I see other sellers on Alibaba selling that same frame with a flip flop hub.

If it is 120mm, a very simple conversion would be to use the Cute Q100 hub:

endless-sphere.com

motor for 120mm drop out hub drive?

I have a single speed road bike which would be great for a hub motor. But, there is a catch: - it has a carbon front fork - It has a 120mm (horizontal) rear drop out. It would be perfect for me if I could put a small motor in the rear, but most rear motors are 135mm wide. Now the BMS web page...
endless-sphere.com endless-sphere.com

"The Q100 is designed as a single speed motor that can be easily adapted to a muti speed cassette for a 135mm sized frame. There is a 15mm adapter added to the motor to convert it from a 120mm single speed frame to a 135mm multi-speed frame use. To use the Q100 as a single speed, order the 135mm rear motor, remove the 15mm spacer, and put on a single speed freewheel."


1721367828448.png

Chainline of Cute Q100 on 120mm spacing.

1721367894295.png

P.S. One nice thing about the Q100 on 120mm spacing is that it makes what is very close to a dish-less wheel (i.e. only .5mm dishing offset on a spoke flange to spoke flange distance of 42mm)
 
Last edited:
135mm wide dropouts will give you the widest selection of motors possible.
 
Another 20" wheel minivelo (available complete or frameset) is the Itty Bitty from Kyoot Bikes (Austin TX):

1721421631539.png

It's very similar to the Neutrino above, built with 4130 chromoly double-butted steel, and has 100mm QR front/135 adjustable dropout rear spacing. Both the Neutrino and the Itty Bitty clear fairly wide 2.4" tires.

For subtle reasons, I prefer the Neutrino, and I have built up three so far. Equipped with QR pedals, they fit across the back seat of my car without any other disassembly.
 
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This is the 2024 Fuji Helion R mini velo:

HELION R - FUJI BIKES フジ自転車

www.fujibikes.jp www.fujibikes.jp

While it is a 20" tire bike the rim size BSD is actually 451mm rather than 406mm:

Screenshot_20240719-200634.png
This because mounting a 28mm wide tire on a 451mm rim gives 20" diameter. As a reference point mounting a 28mm wide tire on a 406mm rim gives a tire diameter of only 18".
 
Last edited:
For those thinking of which 20" tire (wide tire on 406 BSD vs. narrower tire on 451 BSD) is better for mini velo here is a test done that was done using a 4.5" roller:


(Notice the exceptionally good results of the Schwalbe Stelvio 406 BSD 28mm tire which actually has a diamter of 18")

1721535703368.png

Some information (from the link) discussing the test and why it doesn't make a good comparison of small diameter tires vs. large diameter tires:

1721535729267.png

P.S. Something additional that confounds these results is the concept of impedence. Impedence occurs when rough roads cause an increase rolling resistance as tire pressure increases. This is the opposite of what happens on a smooth drum where increasing tire pressure always results in lower rolling resistance.

Here is a good discussion on the concept of impedence:

silca.cc

Part 4A: Rolling Resistance (The History and Previous Works)

Part 4A in this Series covers the history of Bicycle Rolling resistance and the how and why Pneumatic tires are so awesome. If you just want to see the data, you can jump to Part B HERE Back in 2007-2008 during the Paris-Roubaix wheel development, I had an interesting moment in the Arenberg...
silca.cc silca.cc

silca.cc

Part 4B: Rolling Resistance and Impedance

We explore breakpoint pressure in the real world to find the point at which we are the absolutely the fastest at a given tire pressure
silca.cc silca.cc
 
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Based on the data and the concept of impedence found in the previous post it would appear that going with a wider tire on BSD 406 is the clear winner. However, a person might find aero rims and wheels are easier to find in BSD 451. Furthermore, a narrower tire with 20" diameter will be more aero than a wider tire with 20" diameter.

Therefore 20" in 406 BSD vs. 20" in 451 BSD probably boils down to what speed range and terrain type the bike is operated in.

Some other factors that might help swing things would be the availability of tubeless tires.
 
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ebike4healthandfitness said:
For those thinking of which 20" tire (wide tire on 406 BSD vs. narrower tire on 451 BSD) is better for mini velo here is a test done that was done using a 4.5" roller...
Click to expand...
Your concept of better is relative. For me, better is greater wet traction; rolling drum lab test resistance measurements is far down on the list. Judging by many tire subject posts here on ES better means greater puncture resistance (especially holy-grail resistance to goathead thorns).
 
99t4 said:
Your concept of better is relative. For me, better is greater wet traction; rolling drum lab test resistance measurements is far down on the list.
Click to expand...

But wet traction is not measured so we can't compare and contrast that with rolling resistance. Rolling resistance is the only comparison point. With that noted, in some cases a tire with lower rolling resistance will also be better in the rain (this is true in most cases of street tires vs. knobby tires).
 
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99t4 said:
Judging by many tire subject posts here on ES better means greater puncture resistance (especially holy-grail resistance to goathead thorns).
Click to expand...

I think a true tubeless tire wins this hands down.

No matter how much thorn protection you throw at a tubed tire (i.e. tire liners, super thick inner tube, tire sealant) a true tubeless tire will be able to achieve that same level of thorn protection but with a lower rolling resistance.

Simpler construction is going to beat the complicated mess that is the tubed tire + various protections every time. This is why we see motorcycles and car tires which are true tubeless designs doing extremely well despite no sealant being present. This because the tire design itself is already good enough. If tubed tires were better for motorcycles and cars they would be using those instead but they don't because tubeless design is by far a better design. The only reason motorcycles still sometimes use tubed tires has nothing to do with tubed tires being better but rather that classic spoked wheels are not completely air tight. Spoked wheels like Kineo and other ones sold by BMW*, etc get around this problem of failing to be airtight by changing the way that spokes attach to the rim. The spokes on these tubeless tire wheels attach in such a way that the spokes don't go through the rim and into the area shared by the inflation air of the tire. Thus these specialty spoked rims are able to use tubeless tires as if they were mag wheels.

*Not all BMW spoked wheels are tubeless, but they do offer spoked tubeless it as an option. Example below for BMW R nineT:

1721619509404.png
 
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