No foot pedal start - SOLVED

2 self-build ecars later said:

I am converting a lawn tractor to electric. I have installed a 48v 1000W brushless Chinese rear transaxle. It has Hall effect wires which connect with like wires from a compatible 48v 1000W motor controller.
With learning wires connected, and wheels off the ground, the motor works and the rear wheels spin forward at full rpm.
I also installed a foot throttle said to be Hall effect. The controller has red, green and black wires labelled accelograph. The foot throttle has 3 like wires, red, green and black which I joined to their like controller wires.
With learning wires disconnected, and wheels on the ground, there is no motor start and no wheel movement. Everything I've read says those wires should be disconnected once you have forward wheel movement, which I have.
I have not installed a display so have no error codes.
No use asking the Chinese supplier - either doesn't know, hazards a guess, or says it should work!
Today I tried another foot throttle but no success. Voltage readings on both foot throttles are appropriate according to TC with whom I've already been in touch.
The motor, controller and both foot throttles come from the same supplier.
Grateful for any advice. No shorting of any wires, no touching of the throttle wires with hv wires.
I assume the black ground wires do not have to be separately grounded say to the chassis, but joined as I have done, with grounding provided by the controller from where its black wire comes.

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I've had that problem when I mistook controller's the PAS cable for the throttle cable. Are you sure you got the right one?

I believe so Chalo, according to the way the wires are labelled, and the wiring pamphlet, but anything is possible with what I've read about Chinese wiring, labelling etc!!

2 self-build ecars later said:

I believe so Chalo, according to the way the wires are labelled, and the wiring pamphlet, but anything is possible with what I've read about Chinese wiring, labelling etc!!

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Adding further detail. Motor appears to be unbranded. Described as brushless wirh differential and 16 tooth drive axle.
Controller - I have tried two; first is from JS Bull, 2 mode, max current 40-50A, nominal voltage 36-84. Second is from Shenzhen HZ Industry, 3 mode, current limit 28-32A, voltage 48-64.
Both controllers identify throttle wires, tagged as such and in printed instructions, as red white, green white, and black.
I have also tried 2 unbranded foot throttles each said to have Hall effect. The throttles each have 3 wires only, red, green and black wires. Each has been joined to its like controller colour.
As I've said, with learning wires connected, and wheels off ground, I get forward full rpm from either controller but no throttle control.
With learning wires disconnected and wheels on ground, no wheel motion at all using either controller.
No brakes fitted which could impede wheel movement.
Don't know if significant but turning one rear wheel by hand in one direction causes the other rear wheel to turn in the opposite direction.
Hard to believe both controllers are defective. Also that throttle wire colours are both wrong.
Apart from throttle wire colours, I wonder again if some extra earthing is required. At present as I have said, I have joined the controller and throttle black wires but with no other grounding.
TC, both throttles had the same voltage, 4.22 and .8. Do you have any opinion about grounding? Seems to me there should be a simple solution and not defective hardware, given 2 controllers and 2 throttles have been tried without success.

Just got half thru when your most recent post came thru... will try to splice it in.

2 self-build ecars later said:

Motor appears to be unbranded. Described as brushless wirh differential and 16 tooth drive axle

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And SENSORED as previously reported.

2 self-build ecars later said:

Controller - I have tried two; first is from JS Bull, 2 mode, max current 40-50A, nominal voltage 36-84. Second is from Shenzhen HZ Industry, 3 mode, current limit 28-32A, voltage 48-64.

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Have you tried each controller with the motor's hall sensors disconnected and after the learning wires used? Just a thought...

fechter said:

Most controllers will inhibit output if any of several faults are detected.
Disconnect the brake switch wires (if you have them). This is one possibility.
Other fault conditions would be battery voltage too high or too low, throttle signal out of range, motor hall sensor fault, "lock" enabled on the controller, and probably some more.

Motor hall sensors can be tested with a voltmeter by measuring each hall signal wire vs. battery neg. while powered on and turning the motor by hand. Each hall should toggle between near zero and near 5v as the motor turns.

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Other possibilities to consider for "failure to launch" thanks to Fechter.

Are you using a fully charged 48-volt battery with capacity to handle operation? Not just a bench test inadequate lower voltage supply.

2 self-build ecars later said:

I have not installed a display so have no error codes.

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Does the controller have a display cable and connector? Does it have a bypass jumper installed? Does it have an "ignition" or "key lock" circuit? I do know you have regulated 5vdc controller power available but leaving no stone unturned.
EDIT: I see from a quick search of your second controller that it DOES have an ignition circuit... (electric door lock) have you properly energized it?

Controller reference...
https://www.amazon.ca/Brushless-Controller-1000W-1500W-Electric-Bicycle/dp/B0816X1HHK

2 self-build ecars later said:

I assume the black ground wires do not have to be separately grounded say to the chassis, but joined as I have done, with grounding provided by the controller from where its black wire comes.

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2 self-build ecars later said:

Do you have any opinion about grounding?

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This is correct. Noticeably different from an older automotive perspective. You can also check for a proper ground from the BLACK wire to ground by doing a resistance check between it and battery ground. There should be NO resistance. Note: battery positive disconnected and capacitors discharged.

2 self-build ecars later said:

according to the way the wires are labelled, and the wiring pamphlet, but anything is possible with what I've read about Chinese wiring, labelling etc!!

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A posting of the link to your controller purchase, pictures of the connectors, controller, and especially of the wiring pamphlet would be most helpful.
I sometimes think a thread on some of the labeling interpretations done by various controller manufactures would be somewhat amusing. Seen some good ones.


Let's concentrate on the difference between these two inputs... throttle verses PAS sensor. And how to electrically tell the difference.

2 self-build ecars later said:

The controller has red, green and black wires labelled accelograph. The foot throttle has 3 like wires, red, green and black which I joined to their like controller wires.

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Chalo said:

I've had that problem when I mistook controller's the PAS cable for the throttle cable. Are you sure you got the right one?

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Overview:
5vdc and battery ground is used by both. From your descriptions I would conclude that the RED wire is 5vdc +, BLACK is ground, and GREEN is the signal wire. Verify that these are correct. Red wire will always show a positive voltage, but if switching the ground and signal wire around. The voltage potential will be slightly less when reading thru the resistance on the signal wire...
A throttle provides a linear voltage on the signal wire to the controller's throttle input signal wire for throttle operation.
A PAS sensor takes an electronic low voltage pull-up signal from the controller and shorts this signal to ground in a digital or OFF and On manner for PAS operation.

To check for a controller's throttle connection...
With the controller powered up and nothing connected to the possible throttle connector. Verify 5vdc+ and correct ground wire.
Then check for positive voltage potential at the signal wire to ground. There should be none. Disconnect the battery and after the capacitors have discharged, test for resistance between the signal wire and ground. I would expect about 1.5K or there abouts.

To check for a controller's PAS connection with nothing connected to it...
Again, verify 5vdc and true ground.
Then test the signal wire for voltage to ground. You should see something between 3 and 5vdc on it.

2 self-build ecars later said:

Hard to believe both controllers are defective.

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These tests should verify if the controller's labels are correct, or something wrong.

2 self-build ecars later said:

Also that throttle wire colours are both wrong.

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First thing I came to accept is in the Ebike world you can't trust ANY wire colors!

On the foot throttles, open them up and verify the wire colors go to the correct legs of the hall sensor as shown below...



Hope I haven't gotten too far into the weeds... please ask for clarifications if needed.
I have some down and dirty tests if you still have no results and tests are as described.

Lastly if desired you could open up the controllers and verify where the throttle wires are landing on the PCB and their pad labels.

TommyCat said:

operation

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Yes, to fully charged batteries - reading 51 volts on multimeter.
Thank you for all the other great detail. I think I have a range of tests to conduct, probably to include opening up controllers and throttles! I may be a while...
I won't forget about photos etc but will first try my hand at some tests.

Roger that.
Check my last post, added an edit on controller electric door lock! (Fingers crossed)

Yes, I was taken aback when I first discovered the ignition wires were described as electric door lock wires!! I assume I have properly energised them because there is an ignition controlled motor start, and fast wheel spin, when the learning wires are connected. But if that assumption is wrong, please tell me.
Elsewhere I read a suggestion that maybe the learning wires need to stay connected but that wouldn't work in my case because I've found there is no throttle control, meaning the wheels just spin at full rpm.

2 self-build ecars later said:

Yes, to fully charged batteries - reading 51 volts on multimeter.

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Li Ion?

No, 4 x 12 volt lead acid deep cycle each 135Ah.

TommyCat said:

Li Ion?

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Ea

2 self-build ecars later said:

I assume I have properly energised them because there is an ignition controlled motor start, and fast wheel spin, when the learning wires are connected.

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Agreed.

2 self-build ecars later said:

I read a suggestion that maybe the learning wires need to stay connected

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From what I understand is that they need to be disconnected during normal use.

2 self-build ecars later said:

No, 4 x 12 volt lead acid deep cycle each 135Ah.

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I'm suspicious that this may be an issue. As the controller I referenced above specifies a Li-Ion battery supply.
Does your meager documentation give you an option of "locking in" one of the supported input voltage ranges? Specifically, the 48-volt range? Are there "jumpers" on the PCB that can lock this down, or is it all "auto detect"? How is the auto detection done?
This variable voltage input selection is all new to me, but I'm wondering if you're tripping a Low Voltage Cutoff if you got auto detected into a higher voltage range.

Just thinking out loud and further down the road till you make it thru the earlier checks and tests.

TC

TommyCat said:

Agreed.



From what I understand is that they need to be disconnected during normal use.



I'm suspicious that this may be an issue. As the controller I referenced above specifies a Li-Ion battery supply.
Does your meager documentation give you an option of "locking in" one of the supported input voltage ranges? Specifically, the 48-volt range? Are there "jumpers" on the PCB that can lock this down, or is it all "auto detect"? How is the auto detection done?
This variable voltage input selection is all new to me, but I'm wondering if you're tripping a Low Voltage Cutoff if you got auto detected into a higher voltage range.

Just thinking out loud and further down the road till you make it thru the earlier checks and tests.

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TC, my technical knowledge is being very much stretched! Perhaps naively I assumed the source of voltage and current, as in battery type, would not matter provided each was within permitted bounds. My meagre documentation certainly doesn't extend to deal with your questions. I have yet to look at the innards of either controller, but still plan to. In the meantime I have asked (for what it is worth) the controllers' supplier about compatible battery types. So stay tuned please.

2 self-build ecars later said:

TC

TC, my technical knowledge is being very much stretched! Perhaps naively I assumed the source of voltage and current, as in battery type, would not matter provided each was within permitted bounds. My meagre documentation certainly doesn't extend to deal with your questions. I have yet to look at the innards of either controller, but still plan to. In the meantime I have asked (for what it is worth) the controllers' supplier about compatible battery types. So stay tuned please.

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TC, supplier claims any battery type, provided 48 volts are produced, should operate controller and combined with foot throttle, result in a motor start. I'm not surprised but really doesn't advance anything!

Sounds hopeful.
Completed other checks?

TommyCat said:

Sounds hopeful.
Completed other checks?

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Not yet. A disrupted day which didn't help, but plan to tomorrow.

2 self-build ecars later said:

Yes, I was taken aback when I first discovered the ignition wires were described as electric door lock wires!! I assume I have properly energised them

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On further review and for verification…
You connected the electric door lock wire to the battery positive terminal for operation?

TC, innards of Shenzhen controller. On right side you will see 3 throttle wires red white, green white, and black. Black wire which was marked as throttle ground is different from the black wire affixed next to the green white wire. Don't know if of any significance but from a layman's point of view would make sense to have the 3 wires grouped in close proximity to each other

TommyCat said:

On further review and for verification…
You connected the electric door lock wire to the battery positive terminal for operation?

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Yes. Red key switch wire to battery positive, and black key switch wire joined to orange door lock wire.
No joy with using different ground wire on throttle. I was hopeful! Still getting 4.2v on throttle power wire at rest, and .84 on signal wire at rest.
Just as a check, I joined the learning wires, key on, motor start and full forward wheel spin, throttle no effect.
So back to the drawing board...

2 self-build ecars later said:

TC, innards of Shenzhen controller. On right side you will see 3 throttle wires red white, green white, and black. Black wire which was marked as throttle ground is different from the black wire affixed next to the green white wire. Don't know if of any significance but from a layman's point of view would make sense to have the 3 wires grouped in close proximity to each other

Yes. Red key switch wire to battery positive, and black key switch wire joined to orange door lock wire.
No joy with using different ground wire on throttle. I was hopeful! Still getting 4.2v on throttle power wire at rest, and .84 on signal wire at rest.
Just as a check, I joined the learning wires, key on, motor start and full forward wheel spin, throttle no effect.
So back to the drawing board...

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Wish there was some 'cut-through' where I could harness joined learning wires, to get motor start, but bring in the throttle to regulate the wheel spin...vain hope no doubt!

Thank you for your detailed verification and updates. Much appreciated.

2 self-build ecars later said:

Black wire which was marked as throttle ground is different from the black wire affixed next to the green white wire.

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I would feel confident that any wire marked as a ground and going to a designated ground on the PCB would in effect be the same, battery negative, regardless of its physical location. Note: Although grounds are typically and most reliably a BLACK wire as compared to other wire colors. This is NOT always the case.

2 self-build ecars later said:

On right side you will see 3 throttle wires red white, green white, and black.

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Let's cut to the chase...
Since you have access to the PCB board and have identified the throttle connection terminal pads. (It appears to me that this controller does not have a PAS connection.)
Check directly at the GREEN/WHITE wires termination pad for the correct positive throttle voltages using a convenient ground for reference.
If you find the correct .8vdc to 3.5vdc voltage (HOME position to WOT.) here with actuation of the foot throttle. This would totally eliminate the throttle/wiring as the non-start issue.
You get a bonus if you identify what the throttle signal wire PCB pad label is.

My next steps would be...

Inquire as to if disconnecting the motor's hall sensors make a difference, as suggested previously. Change of self-identification operation? Motor operation?

To verify that no other wires or connectors are inadvertently connected or jumped that is not needed for minimal operation.

Double check to see if the battery output voltage as seen previously. Is truly available at the controller's PCB's power connection pads. Eliminating any wiring or connection voltage loss issues.

Look to see if reducing the batteries voltage input to say ~48 volts would make a difference. I.G. Just run in self-learn mode for a while till voltage is reduced. Then disconnect everything and reinitialize controller at the lower voltage level.

And/or if another 12-volt battery is convenient to add in series to make a 60-volt supply. I'd give it a try to see if the higher input voltage would make a difference after total reinitiation.

Note: Always allow the controller's capacitors to drain completely after battery disconnections and before reconnecting and reinitiation.

I salute your perseverance.

TommyCat said:

Thank you for your detailed verification and updates. Much appreciated.


I would feel confident that any wire marked as a ground and going to a designated ground on the PCB would in effect be the same, battery negative, regardless of its physical location. Note: Although grounds are typically and most reliably a BLACK wire as compared to other wire colors. This is NOT always the case.



Let's cut to the chase...
Since you have access to the PCB board and have identified the throttle connection terminal pads. (It appears to me that this controller does not have a PAS connection.)
Check directly at the GREEN/WHITE wires termination pad for the correct positive throttle voltages using a convenient ground for reference.
If you find the correct .8vdc to 3.5vdc voltage (HOME position to WOT.) here with actuation of the foot throttle. This would totally eliminate the throttle/wiring as the non-start issue.
You get a bonus if you identify what the throttle signal wire PCB pad label is.

My next steps would be...

Inquire as to if disconnecting the motor's hall sensors make a difference, as suggested previously. Change of self-identification operation? Motor operation?

To verify that no other wires or connectors are inadvertently connected or jumped that is not needed for minimal operation.

Double check to see if the battery output voltage as seen previously. Is truly available at the controller's PCB's power connection pads. Eliminating any wiring or connection voltage loss issues.

Look to see if reducing the batteries voltage input to say ~48 volts would make a difference. I.G. Just run in self-learn mode for a while till voltage is reduced. Then disconnect everything and reinitialize controller at the lower voltage level.

And/or if another 12-volt battery is convenient to add in series to make a 60-volt supply. I'd give it a try to see if the higher input voltage would make a difference after total reinitiation.

Note: Always allow the controller's capacitors to drain completely after battery disconnections and before reconnecting and reinitiation.

I salute your perseverance.

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Thank you. And I am most grateful to you for giving up so much of your time, and expertise, the latter of which I can only dream of (not helped by my former life in the law, which obviously was not designed to equip me to deal with matters electric!). I will persevere some more.

TC, I disconnected the Hall sensor wires to the motor. With the learning wires connected, the motor still ran with full rpm forward wheel spin, no throttle effect.
With both the Hall sensor and learning wires disconnected, no motor start, wheel spin or throttle effect.
Perhaps it's obvious but the connected learning wires are somehow providing a motor start signal which is not replicated when they are disconnected?
Makes me wonder if the answer to my no-start is to be found with those learning wires, but why and how I don't know. Any ideas in that regard? I need the effect of joined learning wires, to get a motor start, then the motor to run with learning wires disconnected, coupled with a wheel spin controlled by a throttle.

2 self-build ecars later said:

TC, I disconnected the Hall sensor wires to the motor. With the learning wires connected, the motor still ran with full rpm forward wheel spin, no throttle effect.
With both the Hall sensor and learning wires disconnected, no motor start, wheel spin or throttle effect.
Perhaps it's obvious but the connected learning wires are somehow providing a motor start signal which is not replicated when they are disconnected?
Makes me wonder if the answer to my no-start is to be found with those learning wires, but why and how I don't know. Any ideas in that regard? I need the effect of joined learning wires, to get a motor start, then the motor to run with learning wires disconnected, coupled with a wheel spin controlled by a throttle.

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Me again, TC. I tested the Hall effect sensor in the throttle by bringing a magnet close to it, getting a significant jump in voltage (.82 to 3.45) which according to my research, means the sensor is not faulty. Next I will probably wire in the other controller again, and if no change, pull them both apart to test their PCB connections.

2 self-build ecars later said:

I will persevere some more.

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I'm all in, this puzzle has my full attention.

2 self-build ecars later said:

I disconnected the Hall sensor wires to the motor. With the learning wires connected, the motor still ran with full rpm forward wheel spin, no throttle effect.

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Absolutely no change in operation or sound?

2 self-build ecars later said:

With both the Hall sensor and learning wires disconnected, no motor start, wheel spin or throttle effect.

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No grunts, clicks, or any detected effort whatsoever? Would it start with a bit of help by rotating the wheel(s) by hand?

2 self-build ecars later said:

Makes me wonder if the answer to my no-start is to be found with those learning wires, but why and how I don't know. Any ideas in that regard?

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My understanding of the "learning wires" are, that its circuitry operation enablement by plugging the two white wires together in this case. Allows the controller to automatically address specific motor hall sensors to motor winding operation.
As in "dual" or "Tri-mode" controllers this would be the identification if motor hall sensors are available to use. (Hall connector plugged in.) Or possibly damaged or out of spec. This would allow the controller to determine which mode to run in, sensored or sensor less.
If motor hall sensors are deemed available for use, the configuration to use ether 60 degree and 120-degree hall sensor operation would be set.
Lastly, in this mode, the direction of the motor rotation can be observed and reversed if needed for correct operation.
Typically, this is done ether by connecting, disconnecting, then reconnecting the learning wires to obtain the correct rotation. Or some also use the operation of the throttle at this time to change motor direction depending on the controller's firmware.

I notice that you have never seemed to achieve a reversal of the motor's direction, ether on purpose or by accident, which to me is a bit of a curiosity.
See if you can get it to reverse.

That is partially why I'm pressing on verifying the throttle voltage to controller pad verification.
With your input voltages from the start, I've been confident that the throttles are working properly. It's just the verification that those voltage signals are reaching the correct location.
Granted, if the controller is reassembled, I don't think it's worth opening up for just that one check. But I would encourage you to test for this correct throttle voltage input, back probing on the controller side of the throttle connector. Specifically on the GREEN/WHITE wire heading into the controller. This should be adequate to allow us to eliminate the throttle input as the culprit and have at least one step in a positive direction.

Others in your position have looked for a successful general work-around and failed. Even to the point of using the controller full time in "learning mode" which I consider absurd.

No, there is a specific reason that the controller is refusing to run. We just have to determine what it is!



For reference is this your motor assembly?
https://www.amazon.com/ZXTDR-1000W-Brushless-Electric-Differential/dp/B0CKX2KVWY
A bonus if you can tell me what degree the motor's hall sensors are set at.

Looking forward to a copy of your second controller's wiring manual. (pictures?)


As I've only found references online regarding your second controller, that is the one I will continue to reference exclusively.
Can get awfully confusing bouncing between two... but what can affect BOTH...? right?

2 self-build ecars later said:

Second is from Shenzhen HZ Industry, 3 mode, current limit 28-32A, voltage 48-64.

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If you have references to the first one, be glad to look it over.

Thank you once more, TC. One matter only at this time - I will deal with others in a further reply - and that is motor reversal. When I fired up each controller for the first time, both produced reverse wheel spin. I then used the learning wire procedure to get forward spin, and it's been forward spin since for both when fired up (of course only with learning wires connected because as you know, I get no spin with those wires disconnected).
Is it of any significance that a manual wheel spin of one wheel produces a spin in the opposite direction of the other wheel? Just seems odd to me but can't say I've ever tried it on any other vehicle, to know if it is usual, or not.

Good to know that you have indeed used the reversing feature of the “learning wire”. Evidence that it is working properly…

2 self-build ecars later said:

Is it of any significance that a manual wheel spin of one wheel produces a spin in the opposite direction of the other wheel?

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This to me would be an indication of a type of “limited slip differential” and of no concern.
One could always unbolt the motor from the gearbox if desired to eliminate any possibility of interference of operation.
But at this time I can’t see it.