14g spokes popping out of Crystalyte rim

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electr0n

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I'm using a Crystalyte 26" rim and I was having the original 12g spokes breaking here and there usually giving me flat tires in the process. So I got a set of replacement spokes from ebikes.ca which are 14g with washers at the hub. I've replaced the broken 12g spokes with the new 14g spokes so my wheel has a mixture of the two now. The problem now is when I try to tighten the spokes the 14g are pulling right through the rim at the nipple. They didn't do this at first but just yesterday on my ride into work I had a spoke pop out of the rim while riding. I suppose the spoke holes on my rim are meant for the larger nipples of 12g spokes is the problem.

I'm thinking about getting a replacement rim with spoke holes for standard 14g nipples. Would eyelets be preferable for strength so I can get my spokes as tight as possible? Alternatively would I be able to pick up some standard washers from the hardware store to prevent my 14g spokes from pulling through my Crystalyte rim? Anyone know what size washer I would need?
 
Yep, nipple washers are the only way to fit a 14 ga in a 12 ga rim hole. Even with 12 ga spokes, I use washers both at the flange and rim, because they make the wheel job so much better. That said, it is not ideal to mix spoke sizes on a wheel. Building a very good bicycle wheel is a must, especially when you ride performance that would logically require a motorcycle wheel.
 
just get a new rim and start again. Those Xlyte rims are cheap and nasty. Get a decent Mavic or other quality D/hill rim.
Mixing spokes is a receipe for more broken spokes. A mate has done exactly the same , he replaces spokes on a weekly basis, leaving it till about 6 spokes are broken before repairing it..then wonders why more are breaking !!!
 
I'm going to go to the hardware store tomorrow and see if I can find some suitable washers first. I'd prefer not to buy another rim until absolutely necessary. Not sure if I'll be able to find an ideal rim locally for a reasonable price but either way I need to get this fixed for back to work Monday.

I'm also guilty of letting several spokes break before replacing them. :oops: Will swap out the 12g spokes for pure 13g spokes. I forgot I've got 13g spokes rather than 14g.

One more thing I'm wondering would the spoke washers sit on the outer wall of a double wall rim? Normally the nipple passes through the outer wall and sits on the inner wall so how is a washer going to work?
 
I am guessing no eyelet , so you will have to try and get the washer between tbe walls, down to the nipple seat.
Sounds like the rim is fairly knackered anyway, so you may have to enlarge the top holes a bit to get the washers through
 
I agree with the others here the rims that ship with most kits are not all that great nor are the spokes. Chinese 12GA spokes, made of poor quality steel, are most often less than that just before the nipple, where they are gauged down, so they often break there. You will need a decent wheel build usually consisting of a new rim and spokes as well if you want a trouble free ride. I run 12GA Sapim spokes as do many around here and have never had one break. In the in 10K + I have ridden on them they have taken a beating stayed true and seldom needed adjustment. Many others have just as good of luck with quality 14GA spokes and good quality rims. It's the overall build the combination of of rim, spoke strength, lacing, how it's put together and maintained that makes the wheel last. I broke 10-12 spokes on my first wheel then had a bike shop build me one. I looked horrible when I picked it up :shock: although the shop was proud of it's three cross lace up on my rear motor wheel. I immediately tore it apart and did a 1 cross on it myself.
 
John Bozi said:
can anyone post pics of their washers especially on the flange side? closeups?

thanks
Click to expand...
webcam201202151039.png


Conic flange washers made out of alu pop rivets. They make a tight fit and last incredibly long. This wheel was built more than 2 years ago with the cromotor 1, has way over 30,000 Km on and off road, and still riding with the original rim, spokes, nipples and washers. I will rebuild it soon, only because the nipples are worn out after 2 years of weekly wheel maintenance and 2 winters riding the salted slush.

webcam201202151033.png
 
John Bozi said:
can anyone post pics of their washers especially on the flange side? closeups?
Click to expand...
There's some of mine, wiht details of size/etc, over in the CrazyBike2 thread in posts from fall of last year, when I rebuilt the wheel after the original spokes began disintegrating.
 
John Bozi said:
Thanks MadRhino,

This might sound dumb but how do you make them out of the rivets?

Im searching for rivets...
111352948199_2.jpg
Click to expand...

I think he takes an pop rivet and just pulls it through part way then backs out the shank.
 
It's pulled part way through, then the mandrel is pulled out with pliers
 
Hold a domed head alu pop rivet, by the thin end in the drill shank, spin it on a triangular file until it cuts entirely then pull off the nail. Of course you will care to cut it a tad shorter than the motor flange thickness. Once inserted on the spoke and in the flange, tap the spoke head with a finishing nail punch to press it in, you might have to do this a second time after the wheel is laced to make a perfect fit before final trueing.
 
NeilP said:
just get a new rim and start again. Those Xlyte rims are cheap and nasty. Get a decent Mavic or other quality D/hill rim.
Click to expand...

Hi Neil, any specific recommendations for a suitable Mavic rim?
 
Select a rivet size that matches your spoke. The small ones are good for 14ga and the next size are perfect for 12ga. Butted spokes don't have any advantages when you are using a flange washer. Build 12ga if you will be riding off road, and true very tight.

The Clyte rim is equivalent to a Sun Rhyno Lite, not a bad rim but not one that can stand hard abuse or neglected maintenance. If you want to build strong, use a wide DH rim the like of a Sun Double Track, or the Double Wide if you don't care about the weight. Any reputed DH racing rim that is at least 29mm wide is making a very good wheel, better are the old school rims that are even wider. A DX 32 is light and strong, a good compromise for performance but very difficult to lace with rim washers because of its low profile. If you lace a hub motor without rim washers and still expect a long life, use large nipples at least. Flange washers save the spokes, rim washers save the rim.
 
So no rivet will fit 13g?
I'll be doing almost everything wrong according to you Madrhino. I was umming and ahring between gauges before drilling eyelets and thought, I've got a bit $ money to spare on my only hobby, so why not first try with the eyelets. 14/13 is the solution. If I brake or when I brake my 4 extra spokes I bought, I'll drill them out and go to 12 g again or even 12/11 that gloworm stock if they fit.

With a 19" dx32 radially laced, I expect breakage, I just hope it isn't at high speed & catastrophic. After I get sick of all these, I will move onto a motorcycle rim 16", settle down, and raise a family.

People tell me what to do and I enjoy the experience and learn by doing the wrong thing.
 
John Bozi said:
So no rivet will fit 13g?
I'll be doing almost everything wrong according to you Madrhino. I was umming and ahring between gauges before drilling eyelets and thought, I've got a bit $ money to spare on my only hobby, so why not first try with the eyelets. 14/13 is the solution. If I brake or when I brake my 4 extra spokes I bought, I'll drill them out and go to 12 g again or even 12/11 that gloworm stock if they fit.

With a 19" dx32 radially laced, I expect breakage, I just hope it isn't at high speed & catastrophic. After I get sick of all these, I will move onto a motorcycle rim 16", settle down, and raise a family.

People tell me what to do and I enjoy the experience and learn by doing the wrong thing.
Click to expand...


Your radial lace won't determine if the spokes will break more often. Radial laced wheels:

  • offer less lateral stiffness
  • weigh less (shorter spokes)
  • and put extra stress on the rim versus their crossed counterparts.
 
I've had countless problems with cheap ebike rims for rear motors. Larger hub motors seem to have more problems than smaller geared hubs. Both mac motors I got from em3ev are in ALEX DM24 Rims. These rims / spokes are awesome, and have not had any problems.
 
Thanks cal3thousand, you just introduced me to some terminology that I only ever intuitively noticed: lateral stiffness,
65643-largest_Mavic_Lateral.jpg


did a search and found a great article about that and other concepts on wheel stiffness.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Debunking_Wheel_Stiffness_3449.html

Obviously radial will weigh less because of the zero lace, the wheel will also weigh a lot less going from 26" to 19" rim, tube and tyre.

I wonder if we compared a 26" radial and 19" radial laced on same brand rim - which would be the stronger

Would the smaller one have more lateral and torsional stiffness? ability to transfer the power to the ground?
65639-largest_Mavic_Torsional.jpg

Would the radial stiffness be greater in the smaller one too? this being a negative thing? Hit a bump with less suspension?
65656-largest_Mavic_Radial.jpg
 
A smaller diameter wheel is stronger, but it hits the bumps harder on a specific impact spot on the rim. Try riding down the stairs with a BMX and a 29er to compare. Choice of wheel size is a matter of compromise between weight, speed, acceleration, riding quality, geometry, terrain, etc...

Radial lacing transfers the impact directly, pulling on the opposite side of rim instead of spreading the forces, it is good only for weight saving on TDF bicycles IMO. Yet I have to admit it is hell of a job to do a single cross with a hub motor in a BMX wheel. I would go for an Alu motorcycle rim if I had to lace one of the big hub motors in such a small size.
 
Agree with NeilP,
those rims are cheap and nasty and dangerous.
I will use those MAVIC rims for my very heavy Tidal Force rims:
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ca/en/mavic-xm719-mtb-rim-2014/rp-prod71062
sorry they are not $20 max like China but they last for sure
 
miro13car said:
Agree with NeilP,
those rims are cheap and nasty and dangerous.
I will use those MAVIC rims for my very heavy Tidal Force rims:
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ca/en/mavic-xm719-mtb-rim-2014/rp-prod71062
sorry they are not $20 max like China but they last for sure
Click to expand...
Not really. It is a light weight racing rim of very good quality, but a narrow one that is far from being heavy duty.
i would select a 29mm rim instead of a 19mm
 
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