19" Motorcycle Wheels vs 26" Bicycle Wheels (rim and tires)

[GiantEV]

Giant EV, here you go

Effective Rim Diameter 471mm
Hub Flange Diameter 232mm
Flange Spacing 46mm
Diameter of a spoke hole 4mm
Cross pattern cross 1X
Number of spokes 36

Calculated Spoke Length: 132mm

Break down. I measured my 19x1.4 PW with 18mm spokes 17.125 inches. Converted to mm and multiplied by 25.4 gave me 435mm rounded up, then added the length of the nipple X 2 for 36 and ERD came out to 471mm. Glad I measured it, for some reason, I had 477 stuck in my head. The 4080 and 4065 Hub flange spoke hole diameter from the Crystalyte's website states 231.2mm. I has spoken with a couple of 4065/4080 owners, they have reported 233mm based on their measurements, I spilt the difference and rounded to 232mm. Flange spacing is listed at 46mm. I find this strange because the much bigger 54xx series is 45mm. Lace patern is 1X, spokes 36. Your spoke length is 132mm as computed by the Justin's Ebikes.ca spoke length calculator. I have used Justin's online calculator on all of my MC hubbie wheel builds, its accurate and I have built 3 successful wheels using it. If there is a concern that your hub motor diameter is off my a mm, don't worry, that translates into only .5mm difference in spoke length. Not a big deal at all. Hopefully with in the next 2 weeks, I will have my 4080 and get it laced up to my 18x1.4 rim.


Ugrd, coming along nicely, please post some pics when finished.

Rick

Wow, thanks a lot Rick! That's very helpful.

I called VoltRiders yesterday but haven't heard back yet. Maybe I'll send them an email too. I've read up on wheel building, have a DVD on building wheels, and have a tension meter and spoke wrenches, although it seems like many wheel builders don't even use a tension meter. I haven't built a wheel from scratch before, but I've fixed wheels that are out of true and several with very loose spokes. I'm up for the challenge of building my own wheel and excited to try the 4080 on 20S lipo.

Have you guys seen this video before? I'm assuming he uses the drill to tighten the nipples until the threads aren't visible anymore to get consistency? I'll probably give this a try and make a bit that I grind down to fit the nipples like Sheldon Brown recommends.
[youtube]V31UHgrV8Zc[/youtube]

 

[Ugrd]

There she is

Shes not the prettiest right now. This is my backup bike so youl have to bare with the wires and odd layout

Cheers,
Ugrd

 

[Rix]

I've read up on wheel building, have a DVD on building wheels, and have a tension meter and spoke wrenches, although it seems like many wheel builders don't even use a tension meter. I haven't built a wheel from scratch before, but I've fixed wheels that are out of true and several with very loose spokes. I'm up for the challenge of building my own wheel and excited to try the 4080 on 20S lipo.

As long as you know how to true wheels, the 1X lacing pattern isn't complicated so you should be fine. I don't use a tension meter, I hit the spoke with the spoke wrench and listen to the tone. I don't use a truing stand either, use pencils and my swingarm. Ghetto as shit but I can build a pretty decent wheel this way.

Shes not the prettiest right now. This is my backup bike so youl have to bare with the wires and odd layout

UGRD this just looks plain wicked in its own way with that big wheel on the rear. Don't know what kind of speeds you are going to get out of this machine, but that front brake may not be up to the task, especially when it rains or gets wet . Thanks for posting the pic.

Rick

 

[Ugrd]

UGRD this just looks plain wicked in its own way with that big wheel on the rear. Don't know what kind of speeds you are going to get out of this machine, but that front brake may not be up to the task, especially when it rains or gets wet . Thanks for posting the pic.

Agreed, im gonna step it up to a 203mm on both the front and back once I get a new frame and fork. The brakes as they are right now aren't amazing but they will do for the 1-2 months il be using this frame, until my V2100 Genesis build.

Edit:

Ive been riding around today alot (40 mi) and ive noticed my efficiency accelerating is alot worse, it takes more watts to get the same acceleration as before with the bike tire and rim. Im guessing its because of all that tire weight needs to move around the wheel. But my rolling efficiency is just a little worse, probably cause of rolling resistance and wider tire means more air drag. But the traction and feel it gives you is just a lot better... Il get you guys some efficiency numbers sometime if you guys want.

-Ugrd

 

[2007blueprius]

07blueprius, I think you are going to be really close with your spoke length. Would you entertain something for me? Measure the inside diameter of your 21x1.6 rim from spoke hole #1 to spoke hole #19 in inches. Tell me what that number is in mm. If you measure in inches, round to the nearest 16th inch rounding down. Since I don't have this rim, on a hunch, If the well depth is similar or the same as the depth on the 19x1.4,I am guessing your inside diameter will be really close between 20 1/16th inch (20.0625) and 20 1/8th (20.125) inches for inner diameter. If your well depth is deeper, it could be 20" even or even 19 7/8th (19.875) or so. What I want to do is guestimate your ERD with 18mm long nipples and put into the spoke calculator and see how close we are on numbers. With your measurement, I can guestimate your ERD because I know my 18mm nipples inserted into the spoke hole poke out with about 12mm or so on my 19x1.4. Provided your rim is the same thickness, this will allow me to determine ERD.

from spoke hole to spoke hole on the inside diameter I got 515mm, now I measured at the lower part of the well, the calculated diameter by the green wire method was 523? so it looks like about 4mm from the inside of the rim to where the nipple head will fall

with this diameter, inside rim, I come up to 153.8mm, the green wire diameter , top of the nipple I believe it was 157.9? maybe right in the middle at 156 is where I should be, Ideally I believe you want the spoke to end up about even with the rim not poking out of the nipple

I built my front wheel today got a 29" 48 spoke on a bmx sealed bearing hub worked out pretty good, I debated at some point investing in a stand and some tools, all I ever did is a school ruler , rubber bands, and by feel torque meter, I used to use chalk to mark the high spots, these days I just eyeball it, been a wile figured this will be good practice, I have my own routine and a special drill bit I grinded down to fit the nipples better, but for the most part, I use a bit of oil on the threads, an you can just about feel when you tightened enough, between every adjustment I squeeze the spokes to make sure thy are not binded and such, towards the end I'll go through all of them and tighten all the nipples by feel, hope this helps, cant describe it better, I mostly eyeballtouchometer and it works for me I usually get them within less than half mm, and most of the time it doesn't take too long, curious to see how this motorcycle rim will work out

now there was a thread about breaks here somewhere? I was going to use rim brakes on this project, I have some nice disk parts but to me the rim breaks hold better, granted on the rear I wont have much choice, what was that about wet weather? guess that's where the disks work better? I may have to reevaluate this

George

 

[Rix]

07blueprius, I think you are going to be really close with your spoke length. Would you entertain something for me? Measure the inside diameter of your 21x1.6 rim from spoke hole #1 to spoke hole #19 in inches. Tell me what that number is in mm. If you measure in inches, round to the nearest 16th inch rounding down. Since I don't have this rim, on a hunch, If the well depth is similar or the same as the depth on the 19x1.4,I am guessing your inside diameter will be really close between 20 1/16th inch (20.0625) and 20 1/8th (20.125) inches for inner diameter. If your well depth is deeper, it could be 20" even or even 19 7/8th (19.875) or so. What I want to do is guestimate your ERD with 18mm long nipples and put into the spoke calculator and see how close we are on numbers. With your measurement, I can guestimate your ERD because I know my 18mm nipples inserted into the spoke hole poke out with about 12mm or so on my 19x1.4. Provided your rim is the same thickness, this will allow me to determine ERD.

from spoke hole to spoke hole on the inside diameter I got 515mm, now I measured at the lower part of the well, the calculated diameter by the green wire method was 523? so it looks like about 4mm from the inside of the rim to where the nipple head will fall

with this diameter, inside rim, I come up to 153.8mm, the green wire diameter , top of the nipple I believe it was 157.9? maybe right in the middle at 156 is where I should be, Ideally I believe you want the spoke to end up about even with the rim not poking out of the nipple

I built my front wheel today got a 29" 48 spoke on a bmx sealed bearing hub worked out pretty good, I debated at some point investing in a stand and some tools, all I ever did is a school ruler , rubber bands, and by feel torque meter, I used to use chalk to mark the high spots, these days I just eyeball it, been a wile figured this will be good practice, I have my own routine and a special drill bit I grinded down to fit the nipples better, but for the most part, I use a bit of oil on the threads, an you can just about feel when you tightened enough, between every adjustment I squeeze the spokes to make sure thy are not binded and such, towards the end I'll go through all of them and tighten all the nipples by feel, hope this helps, cant describe it better, I mostly eyeballtouchometer and it works for me I usually get them within less than half mm, and most of the time it doesn't take too long, curious to see how this motorcycle rim will work out

now there was a thread about breaks here somewhere? I was going to use rim brakes on this project, I have some nice disk parts but to me the rim breaks hold better, granted on the rear I wont have much choice, what was that about wet weather? guess that's where the disks work better? I may have to reevaluate this

George

If my ERD estimation with the nipples I have would be correct, than your ERD is 527mm. I got his buy 515mm - 24mm (12mm each side) for nipple protrusion plus 36 (18mmx2 each side) and got 527mm ERD. Inputed that into the Grin's spoke calculator with the 230mm flange diameter and 30mm wide, with the spoke holes @ 30mm and got 159.5mm for spoke length. I would round down to 159mm even. Your number were very close with your method and if you were going to be using 18mm long nipples, being a few mm short wouldn't be an issue. In fact, you probably wouldn't have to grind any spokes at all. If I am wrong about the nipple protrusion because the rim well is thicker than the 19x1.4, could be a couple of mm more, but again, would not be a big deal.

Rick

 

[Rix]

UGRD this just looks plain wicked in its own way with that big wheel on the rear. Don't know what kind of speeds you are going to get out of this machine, but that front brake may not be up to the task, especially when it rains or gets wet . Thanks for posting the pic.

Agreed, im gonna step it up to a 203mm on both the front and back once I get a new frame and fork. The brakes as they are right now aren't amazing but they will do for the 1-2 months il be using this frame, until my V2100 Genesis build.

Edit:

Ive been riding around today alot (40 mi) and ive noticed my efficiency accelerating is alot worse, it takes more watts to get the same acceleration as before with the bike tire and rim. Im guessing its because of all that tire weight needs to move around the wheel. But my rolling efficiency is just a little worse, probably cause of rolling resistance and wider tire means more air drag. But the traction and feel it gives you is just a lot better... Il get you guys some efficiency numbers sometime if you guys want.

-Ugrd

What is the OD of your tire inflated? I noticed a little increase in watt consumption when I went to the 19MC with the 5403 on the rear of my Bomber. It wasn't much but probably lost about a mile of range. As I posted before, WOT with the 5403 on the 19mc was 3700wh vs 3500wh with the MTB wheel. My actual Wh/mi went from 83.4Wh/mi to about 88wh/mi if I recall correctly. Same course, for extended period of time, about 10 minutes or so WOT. I am sure the increased wh usage was from the heavier wheel rim/tire build. What I found with the 17MC wheel was different, At WOT, my consumption was just a bit less than the 24MTB at 3400, but my Wh/Mi dropped to 79-80 wh/mi. The 17 tire I was running was only 1 pound lighter than the 19 which weighed 3 pounds more than the 24 MTB. With the difference between the rim, spokes, and MC tube, I gained a total of about 4-6 pounds total depending on tire and tube combos on the rear. I would like to know what kind of weight gain you got from your MC build, OD compared to the rim tire you replaced it with, and differences in top speed.

Rick

 

[2007blueprius]

or you could just add 12mm, I see what you are doing, I was just about to order some spokes, figured i'd wait to see what you come up with, I figure a little on the short side would be ok, something like 156mm, I kindof like that number, they will strech a bit and I dont want them to the top of the nipple anyhow, couple mm below should be ok I think, besides the measurement I gave you was on the low side of the well, its more like 510 on the high side, anyway, there is something I want to try tonite just for gigs.

the front wheel I built the other day the new hub flange was a bit larger than original so I did a 4 cross instead of 3, I am curious, since I have the 26" wheel spokes, maybe long enough for a 2 cross, I know bad idea, large angles, I just want to mock it up see if it makes sense to drill new holes in the rim, just a thought, thou they may not be long enough for this experiment

 

[Rix]

or you could just add 12mm, I see what you are doing, I was just about to order some spokes, figured i'd wait to see what you come up with, I figure a little on the short side would be ok, something like 156mm, I kindof like that number, they will strech a bit and I dont want them to the top of the nipple anyhow, couple mm below should be ok I think, besides the measurement I gave you was on the low side of the well, its more like 510 on the high side, anyway, there is something I want to try tonite just for gigs.

the front wheel I built the other day the new hub flange was a bit larger than original so I did a 4 cross instead of 3, I am curious, since I have the 26" wheel spokes, maybe long enough for a 2 cross, I know bad idea, large angles, I just want to mock it up see if it makes sense to drill new holes in the rim, just a thought, thou they may not be long enough for this experiment

Being on the short side is smart, as long as they can get halfway up the nipple. This allows for plenty of stretch to set and doesn't require grinding down the road. This is the biggest reason why I like longer nipples. You can get away with spoke that are 5mm shorter than optimal. That's makes shopping around for precut units a little more economical. All about saving $ when I can. Please keep us posted, look forward to seeing the final product.

Rick

 

[2007blueprius]

I'm still on the fence how do I want to go about this, I got stuck at work too late tonight couldn't even make it to a hardware store to grab some cheap washers for a mockup, so got bored and came across this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Motorcycle-Wheel-Spokes-Nipples-157mm-length-Chromed-Steel-Set-of-36-/321098802976?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4ac2fae720&vxp=mtr

Sorry but ebay seems to be where I find most info, this particular listing is rather interesting as the seller has a very detailed description much like GC done in the first post , check it out

 

[Rix]

I'm still on the fence how do I want to go about this, I got stuck at work too late tonight couldn't even make it to a hardware store to grab some cheap washers for a mockup, so got bored and came across this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Motorcycle-Wheel-Spokes-Nipples-157mm-length-Chromed-Steel-Set-of-36-/321098802976?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4ac2fae720&vxp=mtr

Sorry but ebay seems to be where I find most info, this particular listing is rather interesting as the seller has a very detailed description much like GC done in the first post , check it out

Well if the spokes turn out to be crap, you are only out 35 bucks, if they work, you saved some money. All my spoke sets ran my 80 bucks for stainless still units including nipples.

Rick

 

[Ugrd]

Im guessing its steel painted with some chrome or something possibly. Id spend the money on good spokes. They are after all supporting all of your weight, might as well make them last...

-Ugrd

 

[2007blueprius]

the price or quality was not the point but rather the size and measurements, those were motorcycle spokes, no washers and such, just something about the whole washer idea I'm kind of holding back, than again I guess I'd have to build one and see for myself, worked for so many of you, .

had a look at that rim I almost wanted to drill my own nipple holes just those 2 valve and lock holes shot that idea, but than again that's just me too, I tend not to leave good enough alone often

George

 

[2007blueprius]

well spokes are on their way, figured I'll have them by the weekend, its official, most snow ever this year a new record, last night we got a couple more inches, I about had enough winter for a year, this is so depressing I don't even feel like doing anything, I'll be sure to post the final product

 

[Rix]

well spokes are on their way, figured I'll have them by the weekend, its official, most snow ever this year a new record, last night we got a couple more inches, I about had enough winter for a year, this is so depressing I don't even feel like doing anything, I'll be sure to post the final product

Spring has finally arrived here in Nevada. Its been over 65F for the last week everyday. Night still gets below freezing, not by much though. Its weird because I run the furnace at night, and a couple of days, running the cooler during the day. Did you end up getting those ebay spokes?

 

[2007blueprius]

no I ordered the holmes, still I may have to order them again, I put a 26er together today with a 1000w ebay kit, I knew those hubs are not dished, I wish they were, the top 2 speeds rub on the suspension, I'm pretty good at making things happen, that frame is rather wide, would have done well for that motorcycle wheel, guess I'll wait till it gets here and give it a go, before I figure to order other sizes.

Than again on the high side the derailleur scrubbed the hub a bit, I adjusted it properly,

I have another 1000w hub that I screwed around with too much, and the axle I kindof stripped the threads, not sure what to do with that, wonder if I can get a new axle, what do people do when they break them, I see several threads about that but have not seen any available?

thing about dishing those hubs, I remember now the axle is centered, I knew there was a reason why I fudged with that old one, I pulled it to grind the sides some, different instance I was trying to fit it into a 110 frame with a single speed, those things are pressed on good, that's how I fudged it, than putting it back together, the stamped steel stator, kindof warped and it was rubbing, I had tweeked it back but this time I decided to just order another, well back to the grind, I may just make a special swingarm for that motorcycle wheel, we'll see

I got this commuter done starting tomorrow should be 65 and up here too, got to find a good route I never biked to work before. got 10 miles each way 48 v 20 ah lifepo, I'm told it should be good both ways , we'll see
George

 

[GiantEV]

no I ordered the holmes, still I may have to order them again, I put a 26er together today with a 1000w ebay kit, I knew those hubs are not dished, I wish they were, the top 2 speeds rub on the suspension, I'm pretty good at making things happen, that frame is rather wide, would have done well for that motorcycle wheel, guess I'll wait till it gets here and give it a go, before I figure to order other sizes.

How did you order? Phone, email, website?

Still no call back, and I haven't emailed yet.

I did receive my CST 2.0x19 tire from Amazon though. The good news is that it seems very thick (although only 2ply) compared to my bike tires, but nowhere near as thick as my 16" 4ply Shinkos. The bad news is that they say on the tire: "MAX SPEED 30 MPH". I'm planning on running 20mph for most of my commute, but there are a couple of stretches where there is no bike lane and I would prefer to go 35-40mph, so I think these tires should be ok for a small stretch of road and not a constant 30mph+ ride. Once I get my new frame I'll upgrade to the wider 4ply Shinkos. Motor and rim should be here by this weekend.

 

[2007blueprius]

I just signed up on the site and placed an order, I called also but got voicemail been screwing around with this got tired figure I'll just get it over with before I get any other bright Ideas

 

[GiantEV]

Filled out a web inquiry last week but still no word back from VoltRiders. Any recommendations for other places that sell good spokes?

 

[2007blueprius]

I looked, posted some links a few posts back, my second choice was ebay, found either 10 ga or 12 ga custom cut, but no washers, there are options there too, but I chose to go with holmes hobies because everybody else used them, plus the ebay stuff was from china, you need to go to holmeshobbies.com, sign up and place an order, I got confirmation that mine were done but have not received them yet

 

[pucksterpete]

Filled out a web inquiry last week but still no word back from VoltRiders. Any recommendations for other places that sell good spokes?

http://www.brooklynbikedoctor.com/subCategory.php?seq=37

 

[Ch00paKabrA]

As Promised!

I received the IRC GP1 19 X 2.75 Tire from Dennis Kirk today. For those paying attention, the issue with this tire was that certain nay-sayers who will remain nameless refused to believed that the weight of the tire was only 5.43 lbs for the 19 inch and just over 6 lbs for the 21 inch. There was talk about how these sites just incorrectly cut and paste... blah blah blah (just kidding :lol: )

Here are some pictures:





View attachment 3



View attachment 1



So, there you have it: 2.4kg (5.3 lb). The description was accurate. The tire even came in about 1/10th of a lb lighter than the description.

I don't know how much the Shinko 244 weighs but since it is a 4 ply tire it is probably between 8 and 10 lbs. It would be good to know so if someone has a Shinko 244, please weigh it for us.

I also use electra fatty-o 24 x 3.00 bicycle tires on another build so I compared the two tires. I was worried that the IRC would have a flimsy sidewall like the bicycle tire but it does not. It is firm and keeps its shape while uninflated. The IRC GP1 19 x 2.75 and the fatty-o 24 x 3.00 appear to have the same outside diameter so they are just a little smaller than your average 26 in. bicycle tire. The fatty-o is 1.2 kg.

The only detriment that I can see is that it is more expensive. $45.00. and 12 for shipping so $57.00 for the tire. If you buy 2 though, at Dennis Kirk, shipping will only be $10 for the pair - an even $100 for the pair.

I haven't mounted it yet as I don't have my motor yet but hopefully it will be here sometime this week. I like it and I ordered another one for the front.

I hope this helps those who were curious.

 

[2007blueprius]

very cool, bit too knoby for what I was looking for thou it looks like it would do well on the street, I think I will bite the bullet shortly and order the Pirelli from Dennis Kirk, which had a bit softer thread patern, supposedly 3 ply at 6.5 lbs in 21 inch advertised and on a email DK confirmed it, we'll see what I get still waiting on the spokes, guess I best order it allready

 

[gogo]

As Promised!

I received the IRC GP1 19 X 2.75 Tire from Dennis Kirk today. For those paying attention, the issue with this tire was that certain nay-sayers who will remain nameless refused to believed that the weight of the tire was only 5.43 lbs for the 19 inch and just over 6 lbs for the 21 inch. There was talk about how these sites just incorrectly cut and paste... blah blah blah (just kidding :lol: )

So, there you have it: 2.4kg (5.3 lb). The description was accurate. The tire even came in about 1/10th of a lb lighter than the description.

I don't know how much the Shinko 244 weighs but since it is a 4 ply tire it is probably between 8 and 10 lbs. It would be good to know so if someone has a Shinko 244, please weigh it for us.

I also use electra fatty-o 24 x 3.00 bicycle tires on another build so I compared the two tires. I was worried that the IRC would have a flimsy sidewall like the bicycle tire but it does not. It is firm and keeps its shape while uninflated. The IRC GP1 19 x 2.75 and the fatty-o 24 x 3.00 appear to have the same outside diameter so they are just a little smaller than your average 26 in. bicycle tire. The fatty-o is 1.2 kg.

The only detriment that I can see is that it is more expensive. $45.00. and 12 for shipping so $57.00 for the tire. If you buy 2 though, at Dennis Kirk, shipping will only be $10 for the pair - an even $100 for the pair.

I haven't mounted it yet as I don't have my motor yet but hopefully it will be here sometime this week. I like it and I ordered another one for the front.

I hope this helps those who were curious.

Doesn't the '4 P.R.' mean 4-ply?
[EDIT] I found this explanation:

http://www.allmotorcycletirereviews.com/motorcycle_tire_frequently_asked_questions.htm
4PR – Casing Strength (Ply Rating). The casing strength or ply rating refers to the tire load index. The PR marking is now only applied by the Japanese standard (JATMA). The Japanese standard can be compared to the European standard as follows: 4PR = normal version, 6PR = reinforced version. The PR number does not refer to the number of plies in the tire.

It looks like it has less rubber thickness in the tread compared to the Shinkos. Reviews mention a soft sidewall, so that probably saves some weight, too? It sounds like it might be an easy roller and good for ebike duty.

 

[Rix]

As Promised!

I received the IRC GP1 19 X 2.75 Tire from Dennis Kirk today. For those paying attention, the issue with this tire was that certain nay-sayers who will remain nameless refused to believed that the weight of the tire was only 5.43 lbs for the 19 inch and just over 6 lbs for the 21 inch. There was talk about how these sites just incorrectly cut and paste... blah blah blah (just kidding :lol: )

[I don't know how much the Shinko 244 weighs but since it is a 4 ply tire it is probably between 8 and 10 lbs. It would be good to know so if someone has a Shinko 244, please weigh it for us.

I also use electra fatty-o 24 x 3.00 bicycle tires on another build so I compared the two tires. I was worried that the IRC would have a flimsy sidewall like the bicycle tire but it does not. It is firm and keeps its shape while uninflated. The IRC GP1 19 x 2.75 and the fatty-o 24 x 3.00 appear to have the same outside diameter so they are just a little smaller than your average 26 in. bicycle tire. The fatty-o is 1.2 kg.

I haven't mounted it yet as I don't have my motor yet but hopefully it will be here sometime this week. I like it and I ordered another one for the front.

I hope this helps those who were curious.

Before I sent Jay the 2.75x19 SR241 and SR244, I weighed them. The 244 was just over 7# while the 241 was 6.5#. The SR241 was almost 1 pound lighter I rememered. Keep in mind that I weighed them on the bathroom scale, So I know I'm close but it may not be exact.