1MWh (1000KWh) battery packs for large EVs

[liveforphysics]

If the real cost of sustainably powering an operation is more costly than the benefit the operation provides, then it's time to conclude that process. Using non-sustainable energy sources to power processes is a false economy, as no process is worth trading the quality/function of this shared spaceships life support system.

 

[Wheazel]

If the real cost of sustainably powering an operation is more costly than the benefit the operation provides, then it's time to conclude that process. Using non-sustainable energy sources to power processes is a false economy, as no process is worth trading the quality/function of this shared spaceships life support system.

Pretty much spot on what I was going to say. Maybe the process itself is inferior.
It might be possible in the future to power such a huge draw with renewable sources in a reasonable way, but the reason this type of process exists today, is because electricity has been so cheap. With dwindling demand of many types of paper the past 10-15years, mechanical pulping mills are struggling. On the other hand tissue products and packaging products are going up, and the day India and China will use toilet paper, we would need to cut a lot more trees. There are a lot more investments happening in chemical pulping technology today.

I think the key here is to find energy efficient processes. Grinding wood chips might be a dead end in the long run.

Theoretically we have the energy the sun radiates to the earth to play with. Everything we extract that is stored in different ways, will run out at some point. No energy comes "for free"

 

[TheBeastie]

Good video here that talks about the fact of increasing size of EV batteries and supporting the grid, obviously in England.
https://youtu.be/le1BKN1vAOs

[youtube]le1BKN1vAOs[/youtube]



Also this
https://thestack.com/world/2016/09/16/tesla-secures-major-california-grid-energy-contract/

 

[TheBeastie]

Most countries/states are deliberately engineering the cost of electricity based on now or how things were 5 years ago, basically how its used without the emergence of EVs (especially eBuses and eTrucks) and when I look at the actual amount of true average power produced by solar farms and wind farms its just going to end up in a gigantic expensive mess that doesn't solve the problems of our future. Putting ebus/etrucks aside its still bad when you consider that having two Teslas at each household could possibly double/triple the total amount of electricity being used.

While Trump is very much the exception (and I think the only major part of him that shows true-ish insight on the economy) with his pledge to ensure electricity is produced as cheaply and as simply as possible.
I think I know the reason why Trump sees expensive electricity as silly and evil and that's because he must see it plain as day every time he looks at his electricity bills for his hotels.. This electricity bill money could easily go to more staff or even the remote idea of increased wages for hotel workers. But instead he must see the madness of just throwing the money down the drain. This is why I believe he thinks the way he thinks when it comes to climate change and anything to do with energy and its costs..

This article is a tad light on details, but I think its correct in saying a lot of potential EV buyers are apprehensive on charging..
A potential nightmare scenario has arrived for the electric-car industry
http://www.businessinsider.com.au/automakers-charging-problem-electric-cars-2016-11

We’re now in a second wave of EV enthusiasm, as longer-range cars are coming to market, addressing what many observers felt was the weakness of the previous generation of vehicles. It’s costing automakers billions to develop and produce these cars, on the assumption that demand will evolve over the coming years.

But beyond designing and building EVs that can travel more than 200 miles on a charge, car companies are also dealing with the other major hurdle that EVs face: charging times.

I think Trumps promise for simple cheap electricity as well as tariff threats have played a major part in VWs decision to start building EVs in the USA.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-22/vw-to-make-e-cars-in-north-america-in-post-crisis-recovery-push

Here is another interview with Bill Gates, this was recorded before Trumps win but he touches on his same concerns that renewables won't solve the problem but only increase costs and hurt the most disadvantaged/poor.
https://charlierose.com/videos/23144
Bill Gates talks about a fair amount of things in this interview not just future energy needs, he also briefly touches on being quite fearful of super AI.

 

[Ianhill]

I agree at this rate the poor will be back to horse and cart using fires to warm themselves. Energy is becoming ever more expensive as the cost of living rises while wages remain stagnant the working majority has been squeezed like an orange in a juicer there's no more left to give most worker bees are on a downwards slippery slope of owning nothing as jobs slowly dry up making all these innovations useless to most that cannot afford $1 let alone $$$$$.
On the plus side gasoline cars started out for the rich and worked their way down to the minion's thanks henry ford you may have contributed to global warming but gasoline powered the good years even though it dumped lead poisoning everywhere, so we can only hope that in the long run the cheapest technologies trickle down for the economy and job prospects to pick up.
On topic I really don't understand why we would use lithium for grid storage there's plenty of free space on and under the earth surely we don't need dense light energy storage when it moves no where, It can be as big as needed and placed where ever needed and stay there for its life, I think we are moving from carbon based energy too soon considering the earth is constantly recycling carbon I'm sure if we used as much effort saving the amazon rain forest etc as we do promoting alcohol and fags then the planets warming up would soon cool back down.
Deserts are growing and the polar regions shrinking the habitable parts of the earth are shrinking, humans are multiplying faster and faster like a plague of locust's with a similar fate, Its possible one day the only proof humans ever existed will be the technology left behind in the form of AI and robots maybe a few cyborg's etc.

 

[TheBeastie]

Not a bad video this one, goes over a wide area of the topic mentions no one has died from the fallout of the Fukushima disaster, talks about some of the most interesting history behind nuclear reactors where designs were made that made them impossible to overheat but were ignored, and talks about the Bill Gates nuclear reactor, in that it mentions that the Bill Gates reactor uses nuclear waste and only needs to refueled every 60 years.

*Edit*, this is the most constantly deleted off youtube video I have ever come across here is a keyword based search URL that should be a bit more future proof as it will dig up fresh uploads of it, as I have gotten tired of updating the URL and seeing youtube delete it.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=The+Nuclear+Option+nova

Of course if you live in USA it should be viewable directly, otherwise its geo-ip blocked. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tech/the-nuclear-option.html

Bill Gates nuclear reactor starts here at 41:55
https://youtu.be/eDCEjWNGv6Y?t=41m46s
Or you can just watch the whole thing

[youtube]eDCEjWNGv6Y[/youtube]

 

[Inwo]

This is where I got my LTO batteries.
Altairnano.
Buses where built to charge in 10 minutes, while at a stop.

http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=23564


Still have a 36v stack of 420ah batteries left. 2500amps? No problem.
Various states of completion.

 

[Inwo]

Check out the copper buss. 1/2" thick

 

[Just2807]

Well, simple swap out battery at gas station would be no problem with some standards. U come, u park, swap out empty for precharged battery and off u go. Same as gas. Don't even have to damage battery with fast charging or wait for charge. Wouldn't even need GWh pack. Like some1 said, gas stations everywhere.
I know oilheads would never allow it but i am more concerned about just a few (too little) individuals pushing it :|
Politics 1on1

 

[Karolis]

I will ask topic author. What would happen if every car in the morning would be completely out of gas, practicaly empty gas tank? Do you imagine the scenario in gas station in the morning? Have you heard the word of average? Take average consumption and do calculations.

 

[Ianhill]

Well, simple swap out battery at gas station would be no problem with some standards. U come, u park, swap out empty for precharged battery and off u go. Same as gas. Don't even have to damage battery with fast charging or wait for charge. Wouldn't even need GWh pack. Like some1 said, gas stations everywhere.
I know oilheads would never allow it but i am more concerned about just a few (too little) individuals pushing it :|
Politics 1on1

Hopefully one day we will drive Into a recharge station and fill up the battery empty to full in the same time or less than fueling a normal combustion based car.
Diesel has a calorific value of 10.7kwh per litre my car has a 45 litre tank takes around 60 seconds to fill and holds around 480kwh, but then the engine runs at 35-40% efficiency at best where as an electic car is around 85-90% so an electric car with 215kwh storage will have a similar range in similar conditions.
So conclusion all we need is a battery that can store 215kwh run at 390v nominal and charge at 35000amp or 90c then we can drive in and out in one minute or so same as we regularly do now with combustion, the power levels seem a bit whacky and far out but if we could get to 1000amp or 3c that would be a 30 minute turn around.
The main problem we face is no room for cars to be charged in built up areas major change is needed and a gas pump dispenses at around 180c charge rates when compared to electric its just the engines waste so much energy that 90c with electric would be enough to kill them off in everyway there would be no advantage anymore drive in and 60 seconds later back out to continue another 700-800 miles or so.

I'm a petrol head had my fair share of quick cars and rebuilt a full car swaping everything out putting in a turbo engine but there's something about electric that excites me its torque delivery is like a diesel or more so steam but revs up like a petrol or 2 stroke there's a long way to go but the electric cars don't have to be the boring anymore they can just as easily be hot hatches ,manufacturers are gearing up for a big change the future is what we make it.

 

[Hillhater]

Maybe a higher voltage battery is the answer ?
Some hybrids etc already run 800v powertrain systems, so maybe a 1000v battery is not out of the question.
Then your 200kWh pack (1000v, 200Ahr) would recharge in 12 mins at 1000A (5C) which is viable now.
And a 80% charge ( who does a 100% refill?). would take even less time...6-8mins ?
... hmmm? A 1 MW charger ??

 

[Ianhill]

Maybe a higher voltage battery is the answer ?
Some hybrids etc already run 800v powertrain systems, so maybe a 1000v battery is not out of the question.
Then your 200kWh pack (1000v, 200Ahr) would recharge in 12 mins at 1000A (5C) which is viable now.
And a 80% charge ( who does a 100% refill?). would take even less time...6-8mins ?
... hmmm? A 1 MW charger ??

I've been having a little play with the figure myself and like you say upwards of a 1000 volts is the way to go but the cells will have a physical limit to the series connections with 18650 if the voltage is high enough it will brake down its insulation barriers and short so a more robust cell is needed for EV use to be cycled in the way we would like.
Like you say 80% is fine I fill up once a week normally half to 2/3rds a tank so 10 minutes once a week or on major long journeys would be acceptable and fine.

It be heck of a drain on the grid mind if all cars charged this way, witu the figures of demand for wh energy transfers perday in gasoline and diesel then half that, that would be a ruff figure of the extra demand on the grid in your area or where ever the data is based.
Another thought is we never need the energy in a linear fashion so if a load of these spiked the grid its frequency would drop like a stone and then there would be blackouts

 

[TheBeastie]

If the real cost of sustainably powering an operation is more costly than the benefit the operation provides, then it's time to conclude that process. Using non-sustainable energy sources to power processes is a false economy, as no process is worth trading the quality/function of this shared spaceships life support system.

Yes but that is exactly how I feel about windfarms because of the millions of tons of radioactive waste they cause to get created for their huge multi-ton rare earth neodymium magnets for each 3MW average size windturbine.

For example the Macarthur Wind Farm in Victoria is the largest in the southern hemisphere.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macarthur_Wind_Farm
It created as listed by Wikipedia for 2015 about 1TWh (977.9 GWh exactly) of power for that year, so lets say 35TWh in total lifetime over 35years, but because these things are relatively new creations there is no history of windfarms of such size actually lasting this long but lets give it the benefit of the doubt.
The winfarmd was created at a cost of $1billion dollars (as quoted on wikipedia) and provides about 1/50th of Victorias power capacity needs.
To work out its average annual MW output take 977,900(MWh) / 8760(hours in a year) = 111.6MW average power generation (And that's before grid syncing/distribution losses which some articles claim can be significant).

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1350811/In-China-true-cost-Britains-clean-green-wind-power-experiment-Pollution-disastrous-scale.html
The article above says "4,400lb" of rare earth neodymium magnets go into a 3MW windturbine but lets just say 2Tons and we get 50Tons of radioactive waste from the production of the magnets, the video says 75tons of waste per ton of RE, some articles say its worse (2000tons per RE ton) which makes sense since radioactive Thorium has about the same natural abundance as RE neodymium in the earths crust, so logically when you concentrate these elements you don't need to have much-combined Thorium and other radioactive particles concentrated together to create a truly sick environmental disaster such as the 10square kilometre radioactive mining tailings dam that now exists in China.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_elements_in_Earth%27s_crust
https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/rare-earth-mining-china-social-environmental-costs

https://goo.gl/maps/M4XT8 This google maps link provided from this BBC article below you can use the distance measure tool and see it really is 10km2 lake of radioactive sludge, created to help people think they're saving the planet or really just to push sway of political agenda or political power.
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150402-the-worst-place-on-earth
Also if you look around the vicinity of that master radioactive sludge lake there appear to be some smaller ones nearby.

So for the Macarthur Wind Farm of 140 turbines total that's 280tons of rare earth magnets created, for the 35TWh of 35years of operation.
The average a single nuclear reactor (most plants have 4-8 reactors) creates about 8TWh of power per year with about 20tons of uranium fuel (lets not even bother with clean modern "Reprocessing technology" for older generation plants or the fact the Bill Gates reactor just consumes nuclear waste altogether), so the 35TWh of total power created by the whole 35 year life time of a massive windfarm creates vs 8TWh of a single nuclear reactor is (35TWh / 8TWh) = "4.3 single nuclear reactor years" for equivalent power produced.

So another way to put it the windfarm creates (280magnet-tons x 50tons-of-waste =) 14,000tons of radioactive waste and because its Thorium which has the longest half-life that radioactive lake in China will be radioactive for the next 14billion years.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium
That is vs (20 x 4.3) = 86 tons of waste from a nuclear reactor for the same amount of energy created if were deliberately trying to be as wasteful as conceivably possible for the nuclear reactor.

*Edit/Add. I recently found an article that talks about wind turbines create more radioactive waste then the nuclear industry in the US here -> http://instituteforenergyresearch.org/analysis/big-winds-dirty-little-secret-rare-earth-minerals/

Now I understand why windfarms are popular because of the easily absorbable renewable facebook memes that float around on the internet with pictures of windturbines with the words under them "this could power the whole world etc" but its not true and the "free energy" they create comes at a far bigger cost then anything nuclear.
Here is a video on radioactive waste from neodymium magnet production, its not as easily absorbable as renewable facebook memes but its a start.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_9Q_6fuGNI

[youtube]S_9Q_6fuGNI[/youtube]

 

[kiwiev]

Great research mate, just like coal powered power stations check that out they burn and release a large amounts of radioactive waste but because its below the parts per million radar its safe. But they do have billions of parts per million released.
Not everyone is a fan of nuclear power but at least you can catch the waste, Bob Hawke had a plan charge for storing nuclear waste from power stations that have used uranium from Australia sell it for a dollar and then charge them 10, 000 dollars for the same amount after they have used it.

Cheers Kiwi

 

[Punx0r]

Maybe a higher voltage battery is the answer ?
Some hybrids etc already run 800v powertrain systems, so maybe a 1000v battery is not out of the question.
Then your 200kWh pack (1000v, 200Ahr) would recharge in 12 mins at 1000A (5C) which is viable now.
And a 80% charge ( who does a 100% refill?). would take even less time...6-8mins ?
... hmmm? A 1 MW charger ??

The voltage of the battery doesn't make any difference to the rate at which you can charge it, unless the charger cable is becoming too heavy to lift.

 

[Ianhill]

The voltage of the battery doesn't and difference to the rate at which you can charge it, unless the charger cable is becoming too heavy to lift.

True but you kind of answered your own answer in a way.
The more I series the cells to increase voltage it does not increase my charge rate true.
But by increasing the voltage then you can use thinner conductors because like you said a 35000amp charge lead would be crazy thick and to big to handle but by increasing the working voltage and cell count we can charge at the same c rates and have more watthour exchanged, couple this with advances in ambient super conductive materials and a way of removing Tue lead all together and you have the ingredients for hyper charging.

 

[Punx0r]

Managing very high charging currents is potentially a danger, a hassle and an expense.

Managing very high voltage batteries is potentially a danger, a hassle and an expense.

Choose your poison...

Example. 100kWh battery, 10 minute recharge time to 80% (80kWh) at either 200V or 1000V bus voltage:

200V battery: (80 000/200)*6 = 2400A

1000V battery: (80 000/1000)*6 = 480A

The former would require approximately 20-off 4/0 AWG cables to carry the current (feed & return) but would be unlikely to cause you serious harm if you got shocked by it. The latter would require only 4-off 4/0 AWG cables, but would be very likely to kill you if you touched it. In the event of a dead short either would probably vaporise you in the resulting plasma explosion.

 

[Ianhill]

Yeah I suppose the more energy that gets pushed the bigger the wow factor when she blows I'd love to get to see that arc out and destroy what ever was in its way, but on topic the lead could be removed all together spikes connector under car straight into a busbar system, I think the only thing holding us back from going to 1000vdc are the cells at the moment if they could insulate that high a voltage it would still be a 270s 90p pack for the 220kw usable 270kw stored combustion equivalent come in at 24300 cells and weigh over 6 and half metric tons with no cabling and could discharge upto 30c or 8541kw Yum 8)
I've heard of neodymium being dirty in the past but I didn't realize or look in to it I guess the electric clean revolution will leave scars on the earth no different to the lead poisoning story energy always comes at a price.

 

[liveforphysics]

Cabling for 2400A is trivial, a braid bundle of 7*0000awg leads per conductor can be made plenty supple and easy to plug in by using the right strand patterns and jacketing materials. Add on a spring retract cable (like some gas stations use) if lifting a 20-30lbs cable (and or aluminum wiring) is a big deal.

Or just a couple 0000awg leads that braid around a plastic tube with an adequate pump driving a large flow rate of a liquid coolant that passes that heating into a radiator somewhere on the charger side.

 

[Ianhill]

I suppose I've been looking at this as more is better but the manufacturer has to think of safety first, The 2700amp charge lead would be kick ass enough to make a big change if cell density is quadrupled while the capacity is increased and c ratings improved, the vehicle it would all sit in would be good enough to take a serious fight to market and deliver the killer blow.

I like the idea of a small plate the car auto drives over
with a ingress cover that slides back to reveal industry standard spaced spikes that rise and engage the vehicle underneath with its own ingress covered resepticles with a data line that tells the charger its specs temps etc and if its docked correctly then with the OK it ramps up a large charging current/voltage to me that make a safe system no user interaction place them in the faraday cage, A battery of this power would need proper testing to volvo's level to assure occupants safety.

 

[crazymanc]

Whether or not the source of our power ends up being renewables or nuclear of some sort. The question posed towards energy demands, for charging our cars and peak grid demands, is simply smart charging and the integration of our cars battery packs as grid storage.

Mr Musk has said many times over that for 90%+ of the time our cars are parked and doing nothing. All we need to do is put their batteries to work as grid storage in that time.

Everyone plugs in their cars at night and goes to cook the dinner. Well already you've probably got 70% of your battery left when you get home. Any peak demand from your cooker can be automatically buffered by your car battery. Then, since there's probably 8+ hours until you need to use your car again, the energy lost from cooking can easily be replaced, as well as topping you up when grid demands drop towards late evening.

If our cars all end up having 100-200kWh batteries towards the future, it makes absolutely no sense for those batteries to simply sit there for 90% of the time, doing nothing. Integrate them into grid storage and the country, as a whole, has just got itself gigawatts of free energy storage. Well not technically free, but as everyone with a car will now have an electric car...The cost for the included energy storage will have shifted to the consumer rather than being placed on the government/countries infrastructure for providing the grid storage.

Obviously this kind of thing will require a change in our homes and the national grid infrastructures. Allowing for inverters and our car batteries being able to supplement the grid will need everyone to have the hardware at home and integrated into their house. But with the world moving to electric vehicles that's going to necessitate a large amount of change anyway. So with homes and residential parking/parking at work etc probably installing electric car charging points, you might as well do it properly and include the ability to draw energy from the battery to supplement the grid.

On another note I don't think we can say, with any certainty, what's going to happen to our production of energy in the future. Renewables, along with enough energy storage, are feasible for a lot of our energy demands, if not for massive industrial processes. But isn't the gigafactory already powered entirely by solar energy?

As technology improves solar panel efficiency will go up and prices will fall. Other renewables will no doubt show improvements too. It's already been shown that some houses power requirements can largely be met via the panels on their roofs. Either through their minimal energy demands, modern construction or light availability. But one things for sure, if every household did have solar panel roofing and energy storage, it would reduce the demand on non renewable energy by a huge amount.

Even if the renewables (in our current state of technology) couldn't provide all of our energy, surely requiring far, far less from other sources is a tremendous step in the right direction. Change takes time and supplementing with modern nuclear, I don't see as much of a problem with, but needing less nuclear power plants for that supplementation is definitely a good thing.

Then if fusion becomes viable via ITER or some other inovation then we'll be home dry.

There is enough energy from solar for all our energy demands it's just getting efficient enough panels, enough energy storage and for costs to fall, for it to really make sense.

Bill Gates is right in that for a quicker fix we'd need to jump over to nuclear fission.

 

[Ianhill]

Lots of good points there but even though 90% of the cars are sitting idol doing nothing 90% of the time, 90% of the cars are all doing the same thing 10% off the time traveling to and from work everyday in different locations, work has been centralized in city's and most travel further as a result.
There's a big push by the government in UK for lack of ownership of anything your house your car capitalism at its greatest everyone in debt, and with these economic conditions most are struggling to meet their monthly payments to keep a tile roof over their heads let alone a solar one or upgrade their cars from combustion to electric.

A massive job boom should already be underway for people to be able to afford all these big ideas and there's not, its a very unpredictable landscape with more jobs being lost than created so I'm sceptical and think the total electric car idea will reach stagnation and not become dominant for a few years yet.
I think diesel will meet its maker in passenger cars and be reserved for agricultural and industry then the public will have a mixture of electric and lean burn higher octane valveless engines for those not so well off and live in less urban environments.

The rich suppress the poor always have always will utopia we do not live in unfortunately so the oil giants will not stop till every little drop is burned the rain Forrest will be chopped to shit and a big dry desert we will call earth humans are destined to f#*k it all up the past is a good story teller for our future.
We are nothing more than a creator of the machines that will dominate the universe its happening now technology is accelerating faster year after year its only a matter of time till we interface or it takes over completely.

 

[crazymanc]

And most of those less well off buy 2nd hand anyway.

At least from one point of view electric cars are actually cheaper. Cheaper to maintain, far simpler in terms of engine complexity etc and overall power train cost. The only real fly in the ointment is today's battery costs.

Given half a chance battery costs should fall and capacities rise. Given the current state of battery production, even with current li-ion tech, mass production in single large facilities, such as the gigafactory, should allow for significant improvements to the economies of scale.

If the battery can be made far more cost effective then electric cars should actually end up cheaper than petrol.

My real problem with the domestic auto industry are the cars that people choose to buy. For many, something akin to the smart car is all they really need for their single person-in-vehicle commute, yet they choose something much bigger. Something that burns more fuel when running and something that requires more energy to produce in the first place.

My ideal commuter car would be a small, low performance, 2 seater electric car. It'd be cheap to make, cheap to buy, cheap to run and as it's small and light not need huge batteries to go a decent distance. It'd then not require as much from the grid to recharge. But currently this kind of thing isn't being made. Even the current budget EVs out there seem to be targeted higher than a companies actual budget car. An electric ford Ka anyone? No it's the focus.

 

[Ianhill]

Its by no coincidence that the manufacture's that made their money through making oil burners only tried to adapt a current model of their fleet for years until decent competition came along the only manufacturer that took it serious was Toyota. But they were not the first by a long shot there has been many attempts at the EV car from the very early days, but early 2000's seen the effort accelerate globally even UK had a stab with the MG Rover mgtf hpd200 a hybrid sports car with 200bhp based on performance well before the McLaren p1 it had some very good specs for a lead acid system.

Its the governments themselves that pulled the plug on UK car manufacturing and pushed diesel in a big way and now blame the consumer for buying it when they made it the cheapest option by far. Toyota broke the trend and managed to go mainstream with the Prius, the first successful electric car was a hybrid and I think this will be a good base to improve on easily push 100mpg plus with 48v tech and valveless heads. Halving the oil demand in time if not more with advancements, but all this needed to be done years ago mg rover had the tech and patents in the early 90's for valveless engines and pushed their hybrid in 2003 but the market was not ready so they never released it.

I say boll*cks make a great product and blow the industry away it proves its all fixed by up top, tech takes time to trickle down only now a Prius is viable to most and the oil company's have to wait longer for the big pay day with high mpg vehicles so they actively suppress as hard as they can to bring down all forms of improvements being fined billions in some case's the dumb s+*ts. The lid on the can is coming off the internet is a great thing its helped educated the masses of the wrong doings along with academic education some are beginning to realise just his much better we could be if the gears all meshed.