1st Build Q100--performance problems

[friendly1uk]

It sounds like your using small wheels. Thus the controller thinks the motor is going fast enough to be traveling at 15.5mph, When in fact you are not there yet.

Who here has felt the limiter, and was it smooth or as described in this thread?

Need to know if you have the white wires connected together (limiter on) and how big your wheels are.

 

[ammodave]

Good thought but the limiter is not connected and I checked those 2 wires with an ohmmeter and there's no continuity between them. I think the speed limiter would also affect the speed when the wheel is unloaded. I have 700c wheels. It spins to 30+mph unloaded and runs smoothly. The KU65 is marked as rated at 250w while the motor is marked as 350w. Maybe I just need a higher wattage controller. I'd really like to get this bike running.




















good thought but I checke

 

[chas58]

Controller is fine - it is what everyone uses with those motors.

It is rated at what, 14amps? 36V x 14a = 500 watts.

 

[chas58]

I just read through this in some of my notes from here. Maybe it applies to you?

Check the three speed switch port on your stock KU controller. If a switch is not fitted you will generally get a lower top speed.

Usually you can take the three wire connector, and if you short the left wire and center you'll get one speed, short the right and the center and you'll get another. Unshorted gives the third speed combo.
Once you know which of the three WOT speeds you want, you don't need a permanent switch. Just cut the connector off and short the two of the three wires you want and tape or shrinkwrap it up.

 

[chas58]

I cannot get my motor started either, l although it took me a while to figure out I had to use the key to turn the ignition on to the battery pack. Now I have power to the controller, but no motion at the wheel.

I have the power wire hooked up, the motor wire hooked up and the throttle wire hooked up. Shouldn't this be enough? Am I missing something (i.e. do I have to do something to the PAS wires if I am not using it)? The plug to the motor is seated well. What am I missing?

I have a KU63 and 65 controller – I believe. They came from GBK, and are labeled CON 61 and CON 62 (one actually has the LED meter and PAS already wired to it, but I don’t want to use the PAS).

 

[ammodave]

Sometimes the wire colors on the bullet connectors coming from the motor do not match the colors coming from the controller. Try switching the connections around on just those 3 larger wires from the motor. One of the combinations will probably make the motor run backwards so be prepared for that eventuality. Good luck.

 

[chas58]

Now I am thinking there is something wrong with my throttles, since with the CON61 (the one without the LED meter or PAS), I got a brief burst of power when connecting the throttle.

Then looking at the two twist throttles I have I see (see picture):
- Controllers are Black – Green – Red
- Throttle #1 is Green – black – Red
- Throttle #2 is Green – Red – Black.


That can’t be right. The controller says throttle is Red 5V, Black: GND, Green – signal. Can I bypass the throttle by just making a jumper wire? How can I make my own throttle to see if it is just crossed wiring in both (really?) Throttles?

Plugging in 3 phase wires and then a throttle shouldn’t be so difficult.

 

[chas58]

And, on the throttle with the LED meter and the PAS pre wired, How to I get the motor to run if the PAS is not wired to the bike (in test mode)? Will it run if the PAS is sitting on the table, or do I have to disconnect the PAS? Hmmm....

 

[-dg]

Now I am thinking there is something wrong with my throttles, since with the CON61 (the one without the LED meter or PAS), I got a brief burst of power when connecting the throttle.

Then looking at the two twist throttles I have I see (see picture):
- Controllers are Black – Green – Red
- Throttle #1 is Green – black – Red
- Throttle #2 is Green – Red – Black.


That can’t be right. The controller says throttle is Red 5V, Black: GND, Green – signal. Can I bypass the throttle by just making a jumper wire? How can I make my own throttle to see if it is just crossed wiring in both (really?) Throttles?

Plugging in 3 phase wires and then a throttle shouldn’t be so difficult.

Diagnosing electrical problems without at least a voltmeter is ... hmm... time to get down to Radio Shack or similar and grab a cheap multimeter. Or even get a nice one. But you need to measure the throttles output when its wired up to +5 and ground. You can use a USB port for +5. The signal lead should be between 1 volt (off) and 4 volts (full thottle).

 

[d8veh]

Your motor's not working because the throttle wiring doesn't match your controller. You have to swap the pins over. Do it on the male connector (female pins). Use a sharp object to hold down the pin's barb, which you can access from the outside where you can see it. Hold fdown the barb and pull out the pin. Use a needle or something to reconfigure the barb enough to grip otherwise it won't stay in the housing when you re-assemble.

The KU65 (CON1) works with the PAS disconnected, but you should fit the PAS if you can because it's very useful.

 

[chas58]

Thanks for the feedback!

OK, that seemed to work as I can turn the motor on now with the CON61. Doesn't seem to be spinning too fast though (but I'll measure that later; at least I can turn it on and off.

CON61 works with the throttle wires matched up correctly.

Next step, see if I can get the CON62 (which has LED and PAS wired on it) to work with the bike on the bench. Interestingly the throttle wire order is different on both of the controllers. One of the throttles actually does match up correctly with the CON62, but neither of them matched the CON61 originally. Talk about quality control.

With the CON62, I should be able to bench test the motor if the PAS is disconnected? Pedaling a bike on a stand while twisting the throttle is an awkward test case.

 

[chas58]

Now I have them both working.

The CON61 and my test throttle were both wired wrong (red, green, black did not match up). They both have been rewired to match the CON62 (and the good throttle, and a couple of thumb throttles I have).

The CON62 and the second throttle were actually wired correctly.

The CON61 just needs the battery, 3 phase wires, and throttle wired up to run (it can be run sensorless or sensored).

The CON62 additionally needs the halls sensors to be wired up in order to run. PAS can be plugged or unplugged.

For bench testing purposes, none of them have the brakes wired up yet.

Interestingly that axle does not seem to be straight and has a very slight wobble to it. I wonder what the long term affects of this are.

 

[d8veh]

Glad you got it working.

While I think of it, it's a good idea to check and tension your spokes. Often, when you assemble the wheel. the rim isn't central, so you need to dish it anyway.

What makes you think that the axle's not straight? Are you watching the rim or the hub?

 

[chas58]

Boy is this thing slow. About 15 Mph on the road unassisted, (18mph unloaded). geeze. Its like riding around on a two wheel golf cart.

good idea to tension the spokes. The wheel is off center a bit. I'll stick that onto the list.

As for the axle, with the power off on coast down (on the bench) it looks like there is a slight wobble as the wheel slows down, as the cassette (not moving) has a little bobble to it as the wheel winds down.

 

[friendly1uk]

That don't sound right Chas. Not what I expected from a 328 at all. Are the white wires together, or the 3 position switch incorrect?

 

[chas58]

This is for the low speed (201) motor on the mountain bike (using the CON62 (KU63)).
I'm still getting the pieces to build the wheel for the high speed motor (328) for the road bike - that one isn't ready yet.

The three speed switch is not wired into the CON62 (KU63) - I didn't get one for that controller. Hotwiring that will be my next area of investigation as a possible source of more speed.

That don't sound right Chas. Not what I expected from a 328 at all. Are the white wires together, or the 3 position switch incorrect?

 

[wesnewell]

15.5mph is the correct speed for a 201rpm motor in a 26" wheel. Do the math.26*3.14*201*60/12/5280.

 

[chas58]

The “201” and “328” designations only roughly match motor speed:
From actual motor testing here (mototech):
the 201 version of the motor spins at 230rpm
The 328 version spins at 270 rpm

My 201 motor is spinning at a measured 227rpm on an unloaded wheel.

Looking at the ebike.ca, 18 mph is less than 300 watts. If I have 300+ watt power (36v10Ah & 14a controller), and the motor spins at 18mph on a 26” wheel (230 rpm), I should have enough power (250 watts) and speed (230 rpm) to travel 18mph unassisted? 18 mph unassisted and 20 assisted was really my goal for this bike.

15mph takes about 150 watts
18mph takes about 250 watts

 

[wesnewell]

But it's not going to do 227rpm under load on level ground. 230rpm is only 17.78mph. Once you reach the max unloaded speed of the dd motor, to reach any higher speed you must overcome the now resistance of the motor plus the rolling resistance of the bike and air resistance. Watts is only a factor of the load. You could reach 230rpm with 20watts, or it might take 1000W. 15mph may only take 20w or it may take 1000W or more. Don't equate watts with speed. It's an energy factor. Tire size also reflects on speed. A 26" bike rim is really only 22.5" in diameter. Unless you are using a big tire, the actual 26" is really less than that, so it may only be 24" in actual diameter when you consider unload the extra diameter is even lees since the tire gets compressed to the road. All these are real factors, just normally not figured in for simplicity.

 

[chas58]

You are right.

If it can do 230rpm or 18mph unloaded I’d hope it could do that 18mph loaded since it needs so little power to do 18mph. Instead it is closer to 15mph (unassisted with peddling). Maybe my knobby tires are inefficient. I’ll try some fat slicks in a few days.
Jumping the wires in the 3 speed switch didn’t really do anything, except I found the low speed setting.

It will be interesting to see how the low speed (230rpm) motor compares to the high speed (270rpm) motor. All things being equal, that would be about 17mph loaded and 21.1 unloaded (max assisted speed). At least the 700c wheels/tires will be faster than 26" knobbies.

Either way, if a Q100 stock does 15mph, that is pretty pathetic.

 

[chvidgov.bc.ca]

I think you are going to want to use 48V to get to the target 20mph on a regular basis. I am able to get into the low 20s with the Q100 201 on a 700C, and with a 328 on a 20" Cannondale Hooligan. I'm using 48 and I find these motors just about right for 20mph continuous on the flat - as you hit the hill, the speed drops but the torque increases linearly until an equilibrium is found, with lower gearing as well, so the assistance is very good at lower speeds with low gearing, enough to climb virtually anything with little pain, even with the stock 12amp controllers.

 

[d8veh]

The “201” and “328” designations only roughly match motor speed:
From actual motor testing here (mototech):
the 201 version of the motor spins at 230rpm
The 328 version spins at 270 rpm

My 201 motor is spinning at a measured 227rpm on an unloaded wheel.

201 rpm is at 36v. Your battery will be significantly above that (ca. 40v), which accounts for the difference, as no-load rpm is proportional to voltage.
My twin 328 rpm Q100 setup was doing about 24mph on the road with 36v battery, which means 321 rpm under load at 40v, so I'd say the 328 rpm is pretty close. IIRC I measured no-load at 27 mph, i.e. 361 rpm at 40v

 

[chas58]

Thanks,

I guess I'll find out what my 328 does when I build my wheel.

Not sure how motomech got these results:

"201 36v is actually 230rpm while the 328 36v is 270rpm" The 201 number looks right. We'll see...

I guess now I'll have to do research on 48v lipos...

 

[motomech]

Thanks,

I guess I'll find out what my 328 does when I build my wheel.

Not sure how motomech got these results:

"201 36v is actually 230rpm while the 328 36v is 270rpm" The 201 number looks right. We'll see...

I guess now I'll have to do research on 48v lipos...

Not sure how motomech got these results:

By searching the net for about two weeks, gathering info and data
and interpolating. The most accurate data came from from Pedalecs-Germany.
After I had the two motors in hand, I tested them with a Cycle Analyst.
Those numbers are at 36V to better compare to other motors.
As I have said before, running mini motors @ 36V(or 10S)was not satisfying to me and I always have recommended at least 12S.
A single Cute likes 12S and 17 Amps. More Volts will add some speed, but not much more of what we call torque.

This thread really highlites why I like the MXUS best. Only slightly larger in diameter than the Cute, It's no-load speed @ 36V is 250 rpm and it will accept
21 Amps, with a proportional increase in torque. This is the best compromise in no-load speed for a mini, providing the climbing ability of the "201" Q100 and the top speed of the "328" Q100(21 to 22 mph on 12S). It is wider than the Cute and this can complicate installation somewhat.
Now that Cell_man no longer carries the MXUS, it is a "pricey" mini. One of the <3Kg. Bafangs would probably approach or equal the performance of the MXUS, but there are some things about the Bafangs that leave me cold.
Personally, I wouldn't use the Cute as a single driver, but I weigh 250 lb.s. Only 2WD, dual "201's" for lite off-roading and dual "328" for everything else. No-pedal top speed on my dual "328" mountain bike on 12S is a brisk 27-28 mph. And it climbs almost as well as a larger geared motor wound for a simular top speed.
A single "328" can be put to good use by a 150 lb. fit rider, but lesser riders would be advised to go with the "201". All @ 12S(or 48V)of course.

 

[-dg]

One of the <3Kg. Bafangs would probably approach or equal the performance of the MXUS, but there are some things about the Bafangs that leave me cold.

I'm curious, what is it that you don't like about the Bafangs? Thanks.