2 Speed Xiongda hubmotor
- Thread starter d8veh
- Start date
I suspect that the gears stripped during a change from low to high gear. The impact can be quite high during the reversal. You can hear it go with a bang. It's different with each controller and software version. Maybe I was lucky to always get the best ones. I don't believe the cause was anything to do with power. The 48v one has the same gears and clutch as the 36v one. Anyway, I've done over 300 miles on my 36v one with 13S.
menvert
100 W
That may have happened, it's not exactly quiet [background noise] on my commute so there could have been a bang that I couldn't hear, or I just also heard the clutch go 'CLACK' as it does, especially when backing off in Low, may have been when I played with some PAS settings to give me variable MAX accelerator which also changed PAS to basically go 100% acceleration no matter how hard I pedal (I since disabled PAS as I just couldn't get it to be gentle, while also limiting accelerator speed, but that was only the last 2-3 days)
D8veh didn't you have the original Square Wave? I would have thought that's way more likely to break switching gears.
I was pondering getting some Nylon gears 3d Printed... not sure how hard it is to re-mount the Gears...
EDIT:
D8veh didn't you have the original Square Wave? I would have thought that's way more likely to break switching gears.
I was pondering getting some Nylon gears 3d Printed... not sure how hard it is to re-mount the Gears...
EDIT:
Do you have a link detailing this process?waingroo said:
d8veh said:
The two "one way" clutches should give a soft reverse spinning to the gears IMO.
I'm a very suspicious guy, I was in China, I know their marketing strategies and how they manufacture a good thing at a good pice for a short time just to achieve their purpose for a good advertise, then, keeping the same price they use to make that thing at a lower quality for both, selling changing parts and economy.
I have lots of examples like that (from electronics,economic bulbs, LED's, aquarium pumps etc...) e.g. Resun aquarium pump bought with five years ago still working without stop, and the new ones, at same capacity same shape won't keep longer than 4-5 months.
So, if once again it is happen to see another broken Xiongda (used in normal conditions) on this forum or else, I'll never buy one. Not a problem for spending money, but I hate this kind of cheap speculation.
The gears color (polyamide) of first Xiongda seen on d8veh photobucket, are different than the ones I've seen on this thread. I suspect what I said above... worst quality.
A reason more to still buy classic, brushed, ugly Heinzmann's.
@menvert, I have not experience in choosing the best resin.... perhaps the one used for carbon. Anyway, that video is good enough and give a good explanation of how to DIY!
menvert
100 W
Sorry, I missed the video in 1st post, that looks promising, I wonder how the strength compares to Nylon etc.waingroo said:
Nylon is used for the gears for a reason. Actually, it's not Nylon, which is a trade name. The base material is polyamide, and it will be reinforced with glass for stability and strength. Xiongda will give you replacement gears if you want them. A whole motor only costs about $100, so it's not worth messing about. The gears were changed to reduce the clattering that you got on the first version.
My original controller was a square wave one. There was a slight pause when changing gear, so no possibility of breaking gears. The next ones I bought were mk1 motors with a square-wave controller, but the gear-changing was instant when using the HAL switch, and went with a bit of a bang, which worried me a bit. I still have one, but I haven't used it. The one I use now is very smooth when automatically changing, but still goes with a bit of a clack when you use the "L" setting.
My original controller was a square wave one. There was a slight pause when changing gear, so no possibility of breaking gears. The next ones I bought were mk1 motors with a square-wave controller, but the gear-changing was instant when using the HAL switch, and went with a bit of a bang, which worried me a bit. I still have one, but I haven't used it. The one I use now is very smooth when automatically changing, but still goes with a bit of a clack when you use the "L" setting.
At least, they should give optional gear material constrution alternatives with pros and cons.
E.g. plastic gears with less noise, less weight, but less reliability
or
steel sungear, steel ringgear and copper planetary gears for a better reliability, but noisy and a liitle bit more weight.
I would like to choose second option!
@d8veh, Let's remember the lack of grease in them.... for what? for a few cents economy?
E.g. plastic gears with less noise, less weight, but less reliability
or
steel sungear, steel ringgear and copper planetary gears for a better reliability, but noisy and a liitle bit more weight.
I would like to choose second option!
@d8veh, Let's remember the lack of grease in them.... for what? for a few cents economy?
docnjoj
1 GW
If you have ever heard the older Heinzmann motors you would not wish for all metal gearing. They sound, as dogmanDan put it, like a dentist drill in your ear. Many motors have gone with one out of 3 gears as metal, but even those are quite noisy. BPM and Mac have shown you can get good composite gearing. I rebuilt my Xiongda with the replacement gears and the very thick grease that Yona sent, and It seems really quiet. Time will tell if they last longer. I don't think the shift point is the problem. I have both the older KT and the newest one, and neither shifts with a "bang". They take about 1.5 seconds to complete the shift on auto, and about one second manual. Both are very smooth.
otherDoc
otherDoc
docnjoj said:
It is not a problem of old or new Heinzmann. The over 50 Nm Heinzmann have a steel gear. The 43, 34 Nm have that gear from nylon (33T), but even like that, they last 5 years not a few miles/km.
I believe that nylon gears can be good if are quality made.
docnjoj
1 GW
waingroo said:
You definitely got that right. The family run business at Xiongda seems to really desire quality, because that will sell motors to the "big guys". I am going to order another motor just to make sure my gear destruction wasn't a fluke or accident. The planet gears for the low speed clutch are steel, but ride against composite sun and ring gear.
otherDoc
docnjoj said:
what do you call "big guys"? If you refer to brands like Schachner(Austria), then, I'm sure the quality requirements will be different than the ones for regular buyers.
Same happen with cars and any other obects designed for reputable companies... same shape, different material quality!
Here is XD 2 speed rebranded in Schachner http://www.elektrobikes.com/Bausatz
docnjoj
1 GW
I don't see how Xiongda making poorer quality for individual riders would help them. We are the "guinea pigs" for their tests. If ours fail, that does not bode well for companies like Schwinn or Sun bikes. There is no "magic" to making quality, just keep testing till you get it. Their prices are reasonable enough so that I would take a chance on another motor. If that one also fails, well..........they really have a problem.waingroo said:
otherDoc
docnjoj said:
Everithing is negotiable in China!
I remember talking with a photo camera producer in Shenzhen to get and to use my brand on them. He first asked me: you want them cheap? I sayd Yes, very cheap. He told me: OK, then the buttons will be worst type, there will be 2mp instead 3mp, but will still write on them 3mp, circuits will be from cheaper composite, worst composite for the plastic case too and no warranty at a half price.
I was nearly to call as their "guinea pigs" but you just get it first! Of course they want to won as much possible! Also they do not care about their reputation.
For european bikes, the things are different, they are not allow to make sacrifice about quality as they should give 2 years warranty. So, the brand name ebike producers will bennefit higher quality than us.
I have about 10 motors, all of them taken from german bikes and are all great! They are rebranded in Hercules(tranzx), Schachner(q100) etc... This is what I do the most, I prefer to take kit's directly from e-bikes! Somethimes, very cheap.
I ensure you that if you will gonna buy an rebranded XD for an EU/US bike, the motor will really last 2-3 years.
menvert
100 W
Well, my last Generic Chinese motor has lasted 6 years and 20000+ kms, it is still going strong.
You do have some valid points waingroo but not every place is trying to produce the absolute cheapest as per your example.
Xiongda wouldn't immediately send replacement parts free if they didn't care about their quality...
That and then you say you only ever used EU Chinese parts, so you haven't actually used any of these parts you are criticizing, right?
Anyway this is getting way off topic...
EDIT: Does anyone know when Xiongda staff return? the site says 10-24th but doesn't say what month (and 10-24 of Feb was Golden Week)....
You do have some valid points waingroo but not every place is trying to produce the absolute cheapest as per your example.
Xiongda wouldn't immediately send replacement parts free if they didn't care about their quality...
That and then you say you only ever used EU Chinese parts, so you haven't actually used any of these parts you are criticizing, right?
Anyway this is getting way off topic...
EDIT: Does anyone know when Xiongda staff return? the site says 10-24th but doesn't say what month (and 10-24 of Feb was Golden Week)....
docnjoj
1 GW
I had an e-mail exchange with Yona about a week ago.
otherDoc
otherDoc
Partially right! True, all my motors are EU chinese parts. My experience with other chinese objects and their logic/conception tells me that they just want our money without quality care!menvert said:
I'will gonna buy too a couple of XD (just in case) because they look great and the concept is well done, but i still wait to see how they evolve...
I would be happy to know if the Xiongda managers read this topic... i'm almost sure they do and this is good!
Totally on topic IMO, with great consequences
.
docnjoj
1 GW
I'm quite sure the XiongDa folks read this thread. I believe (but am not sure) that the replacement gears were a different composite than the original ones. Since the original ones only lasted about 500 miles on my trike, the new ones will prove themselves (or not ) fairly shortly. we put on 60-80 miles per week (when it is not the rainy season like now). Thinking back, one of the problems could have occurred when I tried to back up the trike, and the clutches stuck.
otherDoc
otherDoc
I just find a video about how XD it works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSgq8s-ykfs
It is nothig more, but the same way an automatic trans works and like i suspected from the first time.... I told this to d8veh.
Instead, the A/T trans have a brake band to stop the train for reverse commuting. This is why, when XD change the speed, it takes about 2 secons until the change is done...because the motor should slow a bit from it's rotation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSgq8s-ykfs
It is nothig more, but the same way an automatic trans works and like i suspected from the first time.... I told this to d8veh.
Instead, the A/T trans have a brake band to stop the train for reverse commuting. This is why, when XD change the speed, it takes about 2 secons until the change is done...because the motor should slow a bit from it's rotation.
menvert
100 W
Great video.
I am not too familiar with how AT does this so it might be the same, I don't think the XiongDa technically applies a Brake at all
Rather it uses the two clutch mechanisms (each 3 prong spring loaded), that only engages in one direction while naturally disengaging the other because it can't grip in that direction (much like a ratchet does), this either sends the load to the large outer gear for low speed or the Inner gear for high, which attaches to the hub through the clutch on the Freewheel side (the bit you remove to open it up)
So at any time all gears are still spinning, just the motor direction determines which one is engaged to the outer hub via the clutch.
From what I can see the 2 second pause is to wait for motor to stop spinning a bit so when clutch engages it won't break off the prong from spinning so fast.
I'd love to see them get a controller that engages the motor in such a way that it can be an electric brake and then switch direction more quickly (which I think is possible) This would be better than just powering off and waiting 2 seconds for it to naturally slow.
Also (as some already suggested) some code so the motor can re-engage at exactly the same speed that it's contact point is spinning so it will be minimal stress
Here is a pic if it helps, red is the mechanism for the big cog, yellow for small, both cogs freely spin clockwise and engage automatically anti-clockwise ;
with both drive cogs;
I am not too familiar with how AT does this so it might be the same, I don't think the XiongDa technically applies a Brake at all
Rather it uses the two clutch mechanisms (each 3 prong spring loaded), that only engages in one direction while naturally disengaging the other because it can't grip in that direction (much like a ratchet does), this either sends the load to the large outer gear for low speed or the Inner gear for high, which attaches to the hub through the clutch on the Freewheel side (the bit you remove to open it up)
So at any time all gears are still spinning, just the motor direction determines which one is engaged to the outer hub via the clutch.
From what I can see the 2 second pause is to wait for motor to stop spinning a bit so when clutch engages it won't break off the prong from spinning so fast.
I'd love to see them get a controller that engages the motor in such a way that it can be an electric brake and then switch direction more quickly (which I think is possible) This would be better than just powering off and waiting 2 seconds for it to naturally slow.
Also (as some already suggested) some code so the motor can re-engage at exactly the same speed that it's contact point is spinning so it will be minimal stress
Here is a pic if it helps, red is the mechanism for the big cog, yellow for small, both cogs freely spin clockwise and engage automatically anti-clockwise ;
with both drive cogs;
There is no brake band. The delay for changing is only in the software as a pause. I have some motors with no delay. The instant you switch with the HAL switch, they clack and spin in the other direction. It's only the magnetic field that stops the motor and sends it in the other direction.
@menvert, thank you for your effort to draw over the photos... i actually studied the photos found on internet and I know the working principle very well.
@d8veh, of course the magnetic field act as a brake band on this motor, but having some motors who act different in case they have the same controllers, is not so good. This should not be a thing which may depend by luck... all of them must work the same!
If is not the controller fold for the delay, there can be the one way clutch that can slip, mostly because of different grease or different springs strength! Normally, one way clutches works better with oil!
@d8veh, of course the magnetic field act as a brake band on this motor, but having some motors who act different in case they have the same controllers, is not so good. This should not be a thing which may depend by luck... all of them must work the same!
If is not the controller fold for the delay, there can be the one way clutch that can slip, mostly because of different grease or different springs strength! Normally, one way clutches works better with oil!
docnjoj
1 GW
Well it seems that XiongDa went in the opposite direction from using oil. The latest grease that was sent is thick white stuff that I actually thought was some kind of sealer. It is the grease that is being used now. My brief 10 mile test showed it worked quite well and also damped noise very well.
otherDoc
otherDoc
docnjoj said:
I also have some silicone based with teflon white grease (thick like butter) and is used for car power windows plastic gear motors. Is very good for my hubs too. In the Heinzmann' one way bearing (clutch) GSK20 I find red oil... perhaps ATF.
For regular bearings I would like to use full synthetic.
It doesn't depend on luck. It depends on software and what customers asked for.waingroo said:
If you read the thread, you'll see that there's two different controllers too. In fact there's three different ones that you can choose.
I don't know what you have against the Xiongda, but I can tell you that I've tried a lot of different motors, and the Xiongda is my favourite. It's almost totally silent in normal use. You can use a low power battery, but still climb 30% hills. I've done 4000km on them now. The only problem I had was some noise on the first ones thst was solved with regreasing. Since then, they've made design changes, which fixed that noise problem.
Instead of telling us everything that's wrong with them, you should do yourself a favour and try one. They don't cost much. I think you can get the whole system with motor, controller, PAS and a nice LCD for the same price as a Heinzmann controller.
d8veh said:
1. This is just what I said, if the motor act different with the same controller it is a problem, if act different with different controller then, there is not a problem. So, I understand is not!
2. I have nothing in particular with Xiongda, but I have a big problem with people who try to speculate and I get some exmples about my happenings with some chinese things... some others chinese things where good. I think Xiongda are good motors at a good price... they just need a bit adjustments like regrease and from time to time to replace the gears.
3. I'm free to tell my opinion anytime! Should I shut up if I observe wrong things? I believe do i should not! About Xiongda I said both pros and cons. Heinzmann's I bought where very cheap second hand motors (50 Euro each) who last long time time... some people use them for wind power generators because they are strong and well done, but instead are too big and weight too much for this days.
Anyway, I will not gonna disturb your thread from now and sorry !
