Ottodog
100 W
Would a 350 Watt Geared Motor be roughly equivalent in terms of Torque and Top Speed to a 500 watt Direct Drive Motor? I realize there are a lot of variables, but it that a fair general assumption?
350 Watt Geared motor vs. 500 Watt Direct Drive Motor?
- Thread starter Ottodog
- Start date
dogman dan
1 PW
Oversimplifying way too much, if the choice is a tiny gear motor, or a larger DD, I'll take the larger motor.
Much depends on the winding used in each motor. But if the motors are wound to have about the same top speed, then the top speeds will be similar. How they get to that top speed will not be so similar.
What I noticed when comparing less similar motors, was that a tiny gear motor lost some oomph on the top end. So a stiff wind or steep hill would slow it down. Still great torque from a stop, but less ability to run with enough watts to compensate for a 20 mph headwind, than a larger dd motor that was happy to cruise at a higher watt level.
So tiny gearmotor, vs larger DD. In my hilly and windy place, give me the big DD. But change that to a big gearmotor such as a Mac, and now the gear motor works just as well. Feed a larger gear motor with 1000w, and you get a decent performing ride.
Much depends on the winding used in each motor. But if the motors are wound to have about the same top speed, then the top speeds will be similar. How they get to that top speed will not be so similar.
What I noticed when comparing less similar motors, was that a tiny gear motor lost some oomph on the top end. So a stiff wind or steep hill would slow it down. Still great torque from a stop, but less ability to run with enough watts to compensate for a 20 mph headwind, than a larger dd motor that was happy to cruise at a higher watt level.
So tiny gearmotor, vs larger DD. In my hilly and windy place, give me the big DD. But change that to a big gearmotor such as a Mac, and now the gear motor works just as well. Feed a larger gear motor with 1000w, and you get a decent performing ride.
Ottodog
100 W
Thanks for the responses! Here is a little more detail.
• The 350 Watt Geared Motor is in the E-Motion Evo Jumper 27.5: http://www.emotionbikesusa.com/ebikes/EV665
• The 500 Watt DD Motor is in a Falco Kit: http://www.electricbicycleworld.com/500W-eBike-5-Phase-Propulsion-System-with-Li-Ion-p/hx-bb-500w-11.6ah-36v.htm
I have already had the Falco Kit installed on my Hybrid last week. It has had many problems trying to get it to work right. They finally did get it working (bike shop) and I took it home, charged the battery, and it stopped working. Console cannot connect to the Motor at all. So something wrong there again and another trip to San Mateo (Helm of Sun Valley) Problem is the bike shop is a 45 minute drive from here and I can see I should have gone with a dealer that is much more convenient.
So that brings me to today. I had fully intended to buy another Falco kit for my wife, but with all the problems I'm having with the one I have, I am really thinking this time around we'll just get a brand new bike built from scratch to be an e-bike. Her bike is 30 years old and I'd like to get her something newer and nicer anyway. I have ridden my Falco 500 Watt 36V system enough to get the idea of it's power and torque. If the 350 watt Geared Motor in the new Evo line is roughly equivalent, I think I'd be happy with that. So that's why I asked.
• How do you think the Falco 500 stacks up agains the Evo 350? Might they be roughly equivalent?
• Any thoughts on the BH Emotion line of e-bikes?
Last thought... There are TWO new e-bikes from BH that I am considering:
1. The new Evo Jumper 27.5 with 350 Watt, 36V, Geared Drive Motor: http://www.emotionbikesusa.com/ebikes/EV665
2. The new Nitro Cross with 500 watt, 48V, Geared Drive Motor : http://www.emotionbikesusa.com/ebikes/EN925
* Notes: The 500 watt geared motor is capable of more torque and higher speed, but the 350 motor has a battery that can be charged on the bike and full suspension... I'm tempted to get the more powerful one at this point, but that new Evo line has a 12 AH battery (that can be charged on the bike) and full suspension... What do you guys think? More power or better Bits?
• The 350 Watt Geared Motor is in the E-Motion Evo Jumper 27.5: http://www.emotionbikesusa.com/ebikes/EV665
• The 500 Watt DD Motor is in a Falco Kit: http://www.electricbicycleworld.com/500W-eBike-5-Phase-Propulsion-System-with-Li-Ion-p/hx-bb-500w-11.6ah-36v.htm
I have already had the Falco Kit installed on my Hybrid last week. It has had many problems trying to get it to work right. They finally did get it working (bike shop) and I took it home, charged the battery, and it stopped working. Console cannot connect to the Motor at all. So something wrong there again and another trip to San Mateo (Helm of Sun Valley) Problem is the bike shop is a 45 minute drive from here and I can see I should have gone with a dealer that is much more convenient.
So that brings me to today. I had fully intended to buy another Falco kit for my wife, but with all the problems I'm having with the one I have, I am really thinking this time around we'll just get a brand new bike built from scratch to be an e-bike. Her bike is 30 years old and I'd like to get her something newer and nicer anyway. I have ridden my Falco 500 Watt 36V system enough to get the idea of it's power and torque. If the 350 watt Geared Motor in the new Evo line is roughly equivalent, I think I'd be happy with that. So that's why I asked.
• How do you think the Falco 500 stacks up agains the Evo 350? Might they be roughly equivalent?
• Any thoughts on the BH Emotion line of e-bikes?
Last thought... There are TWO new e-bikes from BH that I am considering:
1. The new Evo Jumper 27.5 with 350 Watt, 36V, Geared Drive Motor: http://www.emotionbikesusa.com/ebikes/EV665
2. The new Nitro Cross with 500 watt, 48V, Geared Drive Motor : http://www.emotionbikesusa.com/ebikes/EN925
* Notes: The 500 watt geared motor is capable of more torque and higher speed, but the 350 motor has a battery that can be charged on the bike and full suspension... I'm tempted to get the more powerful one at this point, but that new Evo line has a 12 AH battery (that can be charged on the bike) and full suspension... What do you guys think? More power or better Bits?
There were a lot of problems with spokes coming loose on the old style Emotion bikes that I heard about. Then followed stories of long delays to sort them out. I don't know whether they've sorted all that out now. I guess so.
I tried a Falco motor. It didn't feel very powerful, but I heard that you can change the torque in the software. The 350w motor in the Emotion has more torque than that Falco.
I tried a Falco motor. It didn't feel very powerful, but I heard that you can change the torque in the software. The 350w motor in the Emotion has more torque than that Falco.
Ottodog
100 W
Well I can clear up one thing. The 500 Watt geared motor is way more powerful than the 350 watt motor from the same company. There was a very noticeable difference in torque and top speed. Not surprising...
I rode a different brand of bike (Curry Dash E3) with a 500 Watt Direct Drive, and I'd say in that particular case they were fairly comparable with a couple of caveats. The geared motor had a little more get up and go and it's top speed was higher (31 mph with pedaling vs. 28 mph for the Dash) The geared motor was also much nosier and the power delivery didn't seem quite a smooth and steady as the on the Dash.
Which brings up a Question: Is it normal for e-bikes to have the motor cycle on and off while you are pedaling? The Stromer I rode was the best about that, but I could still feel it kind of cycling on and off. Is that how they work or do other brands not have this issue?
I rode a different brand of bike (Curry Dash E3) with a 500 Watt Direct Drive, and I'd say in that particular case they were fairly comparable with a couple of caveats. The geared motor had a little more get up and go and it's top speed was higher (31 mph with pedaling vs. 28 mph for the Dash) The geared motor was also much nosier and the power delivery didn't seem quite a smooth and steady as the on the Dash.
Which brings up a Question: Is it normal for e-bikes to have the motor cycle on and off while you are pedaling? The Stromer I rode was the best about that, but I could still feel it kind of cycling on and off. Is that how they work or do other brands not have this issue?
If they are pedalec, or PAS, to control the motor in some way, then it could be normal, if that's the way they made it--whenever it doesnt' detect sufficient pedal rotation or torque (whcihever it uses), it would reduce or remove power to the motor.
If it's throttle-only wiht no sensors on the pedals or chain / etc., then it shouldn't cut out unless you move the throttle below the threshold for power at that speed.
If it's throttle-only wiht no sensors on the pedals or chain / etc., then it shouldn't cut out unless you move the throttle below the threshold for power at that speed.
Ottodog
100 W
amberwolf said:
Yep. It's Pedelec. I think I'd prefer they'd increase the turn off delay a bit so it wouldn't cycle so much. It has cut off's built into the brakes so I don't see why not. It occurs to me that I may be noticing it more because the bike had so much torque. Or it may just not have been set up correctly. I told them to get it dialed in and I'd come back and try it again.
Ottodog
100 W
Good news! My bike with the Falco kit is ready to pick up. It had a blown fuse in the Battery. Which is weird, because the light on the Battery was still working. How are you supposed to diagnose that? I think I probably need to have him show me some basic troubleshooting skills. He replaced the Battery with a new one, and replaced the wireless receiver too, just in case, which I thought was pretty thorough.
So I'm feeling a lot better now. I'll be picking it up tomorrow. Now that I've ridden several e-bikes I will have a better base of knowledge to compare it to. Hopefully this was just some initial setup growing pains.
So I'm feeling a lot better now. I'll be picking it up tomorrow. Now that I've ridden several e-bikes I will have a better base of knowledge to compare it to. Hopefully this was just some initial setup growing pains.
Ottodog
100 W
d8veh said:
That's where I'm at now. For some reason Falco sets these up very conservatively. They call it a "1 to 1" ratio, with rider speed matched by motor speed. All fine and good, but their competitors are giving much more than that and it makes their's seem "weak" in comparison.. Unless... You put it into "Turbo Mode" THEN you get a real feel for how powerful these motors are. Have no idea why they dumb them down so much in Standard mode (battery range perhaps?), but I've ordered their USB Dongle and Rakesh (the owner) is going to help me find a nice compromise somewhere between the factory default and the "Turbo" setting (which is insanely fun, but eats the battery like crazy).
Personally I think Falco should set them up for more power and speed from the factory. Having to buy a dongle and work with them over the phone is not something everyone is going to be willing to do... The motors are certainly more than powerful enough. I'll report back and post some pics once we get it dialed in.
Ottodog
100 W
UPDATE: I think we have the problem solved!
Apparently, my motor came from the Factory with the Speed Restriction turned ON. We turned that off and now it works perfectly. I knew it had to be something easy like that... I'm glad I persisted. It feels like a completely different bike now. So smooth, and so powerful. I'll give it a good run tomorrow and I'll report back, but it's looking really good right now.
Note: Props to Rakesh and Falco for being willing to do whatever it takes to get this right. He said I could still upgrade to the 750 motor and 48V battery, but I'm not so sure I'll need to now. This thing is flying now.
Apparently, my motor came from the Factory with the Speed Restriction turned ON. We turned that off and now it works perfectly. I knew it had to be something easy like that... I'm glad I persisted. It feels like a completely different bike now. So smooth, and so powerful. I'll give it a good run tomorrow and I'll report back, but it's looking really good right now.
Note: Props to Rakesh and Falco for being willing to do whatever it takes to get this right. He said I could still upgrade to the 750 motor and 48V battery, but I'm not so sure I'll need to now. This thing is flying now.
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