38% of cars sold in China are now electric, Sinopec says the ICE is doomed

Dont forget by far the largest proportion of the World supply of electricity is produced using steam turbines !
A a modern steam turbine generating plant is about as similar to a steam locomotive as a model T ford is to a Tesla model S. The best run at about 65% conversion efficiency...which makes your typical ICE car look pathetic.
 
LOL... "Again"... "if"... EV advocates need to stop making assumptions about other people's needs and usage that fit a scenario that is unrealistic for most of us. My life doesn't fit that box. Not many do. And having only level 1 charging would be absurd for a full BEV. But it would work fine for a PHEV. No matter for me, I have a 30 amp 240v outlet in my garage that would work with a lower end EVSE. Running a dedicated 50 amp circuit for faster charging would be very $$ in my case. But the 30 amp would do. But I'd have to sell my Corvette to make room for an EV. I just might do that at some point since I don't drive that thing very much, but stil hard to gove it up.

Again...if you don't drive over fifty miles every single day, a level one charger will keep your car fully charged.You don't need a 240v circuit.

Locally, we have a couple new housing developments that use "solar homes", and "EV charge ready" as marketing hooks. Most have two car garages plus curb parking.

Setting up (or retrofitting an older home) with underground fed curbside charge plugs is not much harder than yard lighting or irrigation. Unlike those, it would pay for itself pretty quickly. Idiot/vandal proofing the outlet would be the hardest part.
 
I have a really simple explanation for all this..

- Coal is super cheap and plentiful in China
- China doesn't have much petroleum
- China has way less environmental regulations and low labor costs/standards so they can make whatever the hell they want.
- China is rich in minerals/materials for which to build the electric future out of
- China has a massive urban pollution problem and it would be possible to move that pollution with coal fired electric vehicles
- Most Chinese people live in a small area ( coastal ) relative to the size of the country so range is not as big of a deal

- USA no longer makes things ( with few exceptions )
- USA somehow has close to a Saudi Arabia's worth of oil thanks to new extraction/processing technologies over the last decade
- USA has some of the lowest gasoline costs in the world.
- USA lacks a copious amount of minerals/materials for build the electric future out of, or at least it hasn't developed it's reserves
- USA doesn't have an unlivable amount of pollution like China does.
- USA is very spread out and most people occasionally need really long ranges & this means we need denser batteries or a large amount of chargers nationwide per capita
- USA has a lot of regulations; building a new kind of infrastructure is harder and also more costly labor wise
- USA has lot more oil money than EV money to corrupt the government with.

My prediction is that 'states is gonna lag behind China in adoption for a decade because economics and technology don't as easily line up - and those are the 2 factors that determine the adoption of most things in the USA.
 
A a modern steam turbine generating plant is about as similar to a steam locomotive as a model T ford is to a Tesla model S. The best run at about 65% conversion efficiency...which makes your typical ICE car look pathetic.

Atkinson cycle ICE in Toyota hybrids are over 40% efficient.

Once you factor in all the losses to get the power from the steam turbine to the wheels of an EV, an ICE hybrid and EV are much closer than you think.
 
Atkinson cycle ICE in Toyota hybrids are over 40% efficient.

Once you factor in all the losses to get the power from the steam turbine to the wheels of an EV, an ICE hybrid and EV are much closer than you think.
Nope. EV's are typically three or more times as efficient in turning energy into road miles as an ICE of similar size is .."MPGe"

An Atkinson cycle engine (actually *simulated atkinson*, since the piston stroke doesn't change) in a hybrid is as atypical an ICE usage as you can get, it's like running an ICE in a research lab. It never idles, always runs at an rpm calculated to maximize engine efficiency (not power...you can only get away with that when you have batteries and an electric motor to take up the slack) Then you have to add in the losses in generation and charging on board the hybrid (15-20%) THEN you can compare that ICE to an EV charged from a wall plug. Realistically that *40% efficient* engine is more like 25% efficient, when you use "available power" as the basis of comparison. Yes, you get much better mileage numbers (mostly due to running a wimpy little ICE engine that would suck if you depended on it alone for acceleration)...but still pathetic compared to an EV. Yes, having the generator there to allow regen braking helps too.

Loses in high voltage AC transmission lines long distance are about 5%. As low as 2%, as high as 13% ( if you live a loooong way from a power plant, like parts of Idaho)

"Upwards of 6o%* is the quoted conversion efficiency of a modern combined cycle NG power plant. Add in generation losses (5% ) charging losses (10%) and motor loses (5-10%) (the last three are present at similar levels in a hybrid) and you can see how badly an EV beats an ICE...*when using 100% fossil fuel to generate charging power*

...which is rapidly becoming uncommon.
 
Nope. EV's are typically three or more times as efficient in turning energy into road miles as an ICE of similar size is .."MPGe"

You can have academic discussions all day long, but here are the facts.

A Tesla Y and a hybrid RAV4 are largely the same size and function vehicle. One goes 4 miles per kwh, which means at 20 cents per khw it costs $30 to drive 600 miles. And the hybrid RAV4 gets 39mpg, and at $3 per gallon it costs $46 to drive 600 miles.

Which a RAV4 can actually do on a single tank in optimal conditions, and still cost much less to purchase, with much better depreciation, and much less "refueling" headaches.

The total real cost difference is not multiples.
 
I also think a driver of EV sales will start to become convenience and ease of use both things somewhat separated from gas prices. In the US I think first we'll see more and more two car households switch to one EV along with suburban households. The range anxiety however unrealistic it often is can be overlooked by very easily if you have two cars. If you have a garage and don't live very far away from most things (suburban) the convenience of never having to go to a gas station, no oil changes and similar maintenance, along with a comfortable and easy driving experience will win more and more over.

I think two things are so often overlooked when people talk about EVs that lead to flawed arguments. The first is that EVs are too expensive and they are too boring. I've seen so many people claim that buying a new EV will never pay for itself vs driving the gas car you have and that these new EVs are too expensive, who would pay over 30K for a car. It seems these arguments are always made from people who have never bought a new car and in this discussion the only people that matter really are people who buy new cars, every used car was once new. And while sure I would never spend the kind of money on a car that most new cars cost the popularity of trucks and massive SUVs with crazy price tags seems to indicate that new buyers may not be that price sensitive and getting them to pay an extra 5-10k for an EV equivalent of an ICE if that is what they want is probably not that hard and it's probably more a matter of them wanting it. And that is probably down to things like the garbage EV offerings from many brands, FUD about range, cold weather, battery life, etc and just never having tried one before. Almost forgot, that is to say two car households and suburban households are also probably much more likely to constitute a larger percentage of new car buyers due to wealth brackets.

Which leads me to the EVs are boring, an argument made by car people who seem to often overlook that most people couldn't give a shit about car stuff and just want their car to be an appliance, one that does it's job well without ever having to think about it. They want a vehicle that is quiet, comfortable, low maintenance and if they charge it at home and never go to a gas station, that's all the more convenient and convenience sells.


Nah I don't think so, we'll burn/use it (probably use it longer than we burn it) for as long as it's economically viable to do so. It's not like oil is free to get, move, process, etc and if it's too expensive compared to alternatives we'll stop pumping it just like it became not economical viable to keep using whale oil before we killed all the whales. And I think to produce electricity will be one of the first places it will become no longer viable (I mean it isn't now), I expect the last will probably be as a chemical precursor with shipping and aircraft being somewhere in the middle. Although I could be wrong a few uses could take so long to find a economical alternative we'll pump most of the oil.
I am in China, electric cars are too cheap. My electric car with a range of 620 kilometers is 150,000 RMB, 150,000/7.3=20,547 USD. I have used it for two years, with a total of 65,000 kilometers, and there are no quality problems. A friend has driven 380,000 kilometers, changed tires and 12V batteries several times, and also changed the cooling water pump.
 

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$20k USD for a car with 328 mile range... that has good build quality?
The American mind can't comprehend it! that's about the cost of a small gas car ( Nissan Sentra ) here.

In China, are gas cars the same price.. more.. or cheaper than this electric?
 
I have a really simple explanation for all this..

- Coal is super cheap and plentiful in China
- China doesn't have much petroleum
- China has way less environmental regulations and low labor costs/standards so they can make whatever the hell they want.
- China is rich in minerals/materials for which to build the electric future out of
- China has a massive urban pollution problem and it would be possible to move that pollution with coal fired electric vehicles
- Most Chinese people live in a small area ( coastal ) relative to the size of the country so range is not as big of a deal

- USA no longer makes things ( with few exceptions )
- USA somehow has close to a Saudi Arabia's worth of oil thanks to new extraction/processing technologies over the last decade
- USA has some of the lowest gasoline costs in the world.
- USA lacks a copious amount of minerals/materials for build the electric future out of, or at least it hasn't developed it's reserves
- USA doesn't have an unlivable amount of pollution like China does.
- USA is very spread out and most people occasionally need really long ranges & this means we need denser batteries or a large amount of chargers nationwide per capita
- USA has a lot of regulations; building a new kind of infrastructure is harder and also more costly labor wise
- USA has lot more oil money than EV money to corrupt the government with.

My prediction is that 'states is gonna lag behind China in adoption for a decade because economics and technology don't as easily line up - and those are the 2 factors that determine the adoption of most things in the USA.
I am in China, electric cars are so cheap. I bought an electric car with a range of 620 kilometers for 150,000 RMB, 150,000/7.3=20,547 USD. I have been using it for two years, with a total of 65,000 kilometers, and there are no quality problems so far. Each electric car can apply to the power company to install a 7Kw charging pile. The charging price from 22:00 to 7:00 is 0.39 yuan (RMB), and the cost of driving 100 kilometers is 7 yuan, 7/7.3=0.958904 USD. In addition, let me tell you that ordinary Chinese are the most hardworking and diligent people on the earth. Because the salary is too low, many people can only work 10-15 hours a day to make the salary high. You are so lucky in Europe and America.
 
What does it cost to get a 7kW charger out there & is it hard to get?

Hey it's too bad our governments can't get along. Otherwise we would be trading you some good pay in exchange for bringing the electric revolution to us!
 
$20k USD for a car with 328 mile range... that has good build quality?
The American mind can't comprehend it! that's about the cost of a small gas car ( Nissan Sentra ) here.

In China, are gas cars the same price.. more.. or cheaper than this electric?
Hello, the price of gasoline cars in China is getting lower and lower. The price of gasoline cars is only two-thirds of that of electric cars. The 1.6L Volkswagen Skoda I bought in 2010 was 135,000 yuan (135,000/7.3=18,493 US dollars). After using it for 10 years, I gave the Skoda to my relatives. I bought my first electric car for 62,800 yuan (62,800/7.3=8,602 US dollars). The range of this electric car is 310 kilometers. The driving experience of electric cars is much better than that of gasoline cars. It is very good. I used it for 3 years and accumulated 50,000 kilometers. Because this electric car has a small space, I sold it in the second-hand market for 42,000 yuan (42,000/7.3=5,753 US dollars). I bought a second SUV electric car again. I am very satisfied with it now. Many people are unwilling to use gasoline cars after using electric cars.
 
What does it cost to get a 7kW charger out there & is it hard to get?

Hey it's too bad our governments can't get along. Otherwise we would be trading you some good pay in exchange for bringing the electric revolution to us!
Hello, it is free. Electric vehicle dealers provide 7Kw charging piles for free and install them for free, but only provide 30-meter power lines. If the power line exceeds 30 meters, the owner needs to pay extra. The power company installs a special meter for electric vehicle charging piles for free. The state encourages charging piles late at night to balance the load of the power grid. This method is very beneficial to the power company, and the electricity generated by the power plant late at night will not be wasted.
 
You can have academic discussions all day long, but here are the facts.

A Tesla Y and a hybrid RAV4 are largely the same size and function vehicle. One goes 4 miles per kwh, which means at 20 cents per khw it costs $30 to drive 600 miles. And the hybrid RAV4 gets 39mpg, and at $3 per gallon it costs $46 to drive 600 miles.

Which a RAV4 can actually do on a single tank in optimal conditions, and still cost much less to purchase, with much better depreciation, and much less "refueling" headaches.

The total real cost difference is not multiples.
*A Tesla Y and a hybrid RAV4 are largely the same size and function vehicle. One goes 4 miles per kwh, which means at 20 cents per khw it costs $30 to drive 600 miles. And the hybrid RAV4 gets 39mpg, and at $3 per gallon it costs $46 to drive 600 miles.*...you're calling a hybrid a gasoline vehicle, that's dumb. Most sources consider them EV's, *because they have batteries and electric motors* You can't reasonably call a hybrid a typical ICE vehicle, so you're comparing oranges to apples.

Comparing ICE (not hybrid) cars to BEV's of similar size, the EV has a 3x advantage in efficiency over the ICE car, when energy consumed per mile is the metric ("MPG equivalent" ) Using "cost of energy per mile" as the metric is stupid, since both electricity costs and fuel cost can vary by 30% or more.

Other disadvantages to the hybrid is how much more often they catch fire (compared to BEV's and ICEs ) and complication ( they are both and ICE and an EV, with both systems ...and a system to let the other two systems work with each other.
 
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The state encourages charging piles late at night to balance the load of the power grid. This method is very beneficial to the power company, and the electricity generated by the power plant late at night will not be wasted.

In New Zealand, it was common to have a pile of bricks with heating wire laced through them on a dedicated circuit from the power company. When demand fell at night, that circuit was activated and heated the bricks which then heated the house for the night. Quite a large share of the electricity generation was hydro power, and that may have benefited from the more stable load.

A sensible approach, I don't know if it's still practiced.
 
Hello, it is free. Electric vehicle dealers provide 7Kw charging piles for free and install them for free, but only provide 30-meter power lines. If the power line exceeds 30 meters, the owner needs to pay extra. The power company installs a special meter for electric vehicle charging piles for free. The state encourages charging piles late at night to balance the load of the power grid. This method is very beneficial to the power company, and the electricity generated by the power plant late at night will not be wasted.

Wow, that's pretty awesome. It sounds like the government is putting in full effort. Jealous of that aspect. Tell the electric revolution happening over there that i said 'hi'!
 
Here's an apples to apples ICE vs EV comparison...Fiat 500 vs fiat 500 E

2019 500, manual transmission...2505 lbs, 32mpg combined
2019 500E 2980 lbs 112 MPGe

So, EV version of the same car, 3.5 times as efficient as the ICE version...even though four hundred and fifty pounds heavier
 

*This is not the first time it’s been said that EVs are not as likely to catch fire as vehicles that have an internal combustion engine. Now it has been confirmed with data from the National Transport Safety Board, compiled by AutoinsuranceEZ, which says that hybrid vehicles have the highest fire risk*

*Fully electric vehicles, on the other hand, were deemed far safer than both hybirds and gas cars; they are far less likely to catch fire, with just 25.1 fires per 100,000 sales. That’s compared to 3,474 hybrid fires and 1,529 ICE fires per 100,000 sales respectively.*

*When looking at the number of vehicles recalled in 2020 due to fire risk, AutoinsuranceEZ found that ICE topped the table. The only two notable EV recalls were for the Hyundai Kona (82,000 units recalled due to faulty battery packs that could cause a fire) and the highly publicised Chevrolet Bolt EV recall (70,000 units recalled)*

per 100k sold... EV fires 25.1
ICE fires 1,529
Hybrid fires 3,474

Lets see..... that's a difference in fire rate of....*one hundred and thirty eight times*


I think I got the last laugh, and you look like a clown.
 
Here's an apples to apples ICE vs EV comparison...Fiat 500 vs fiat 500 E

2019 500, manual transmission...2505 lbs, 32mpg combined
2019 500E 2980 lbs 112 MPGe

So, EV version of the same car, 3.5 times as efficient as the ICE version...even though four hundred and fifty pounds heavier

You know ICE vehicles run on a thermodynamic cycle, while an ev exports that inherent inefficiency to the grid, depending on what powers the grid.
 
You know ICE vehicles run on a thermodynamic cycle, while an ev exports that inherent inefficiency to the grid, depending on what powers the grid.
I dealt with that objection earlier, but again, simplified....

About a gallon of gasoline's worth of energy is expended in finding,extracting, refining and transporting the gallon of gas in your tank to your gas station. Energy losses in generating and transporting electricity are almost always much less than that. Old coal power plants not near a coal mine may be an exception.

Real world gasoline ICE cars run about 20% efficiency (turbo diesel more like 30% ) when you consider cold startup, stop and go, idling...

NG power plants (at least newish, dual cycle types run at over 60% efficiency, about 5% is lost in transmission to your charge station, another 10-15% in charge/discharge losses and motor losses.

So, the ICE is, at very best, half as efficient at the EV...(except for that pesky 50% lost to getting the gasoline to your filling station, that's rarely factored in )

That's why, when you compare two cars, identical except for the power train, the EV turns in efficiency numbers 3-4 times that of the ICE, when you compare how effectively they use the energy they have available.

Now, if you use worst case scenario, and pretend that your electrical power all comes from a coal plant...your ICE still comes out behind. (can you burn coal in your car? Do you know how inefficient the processes is?
 
.you're calling a hybrid a gasoline vehicle, that's dumb. Most sources consider them EV's, *because they have batteries and electric motors* You can't reasonably call a hybrid a typical ICE vehicle
No.. a Hybrid is just that.. a “Hybrid” (not a PHEV, or a BEV)
All its energy comes from the gasoline it burns, some is stored in a battery ( kinetic regen) for reuse via an electric motor.
But that is not a vehicle powered by just electrical energy from an external source.
And most manufacturers today have hybrid models in their range……including the Chinese manufacturers !
*When looking at the number of vehicles recalled in 2020 due to fire risk, AutoinsuranceEZ found that ICE topped the table. The only two notable EV recalls were for the Hyundai Kona (82,000 units recalled due to faulty battery packs that could cause a fire) and the highly publicised Chevrolet Bolt EV recall (70,000 units recalled)*

per 100k sold... EV fires 25.1
ICE fires 1,529
Hybrid fires 3,474
I think I got the last laugh, and you look like a clown.
Again, NO, …you are the clown if you did not see the major flaw in the calculation used for that “AutoinsuranceEZ” study !
 
At some point, it get silly trying to compare efficiency. A good modern PV panel converts sunlight to electricity at about 25% efficiency. That's terrible...except that energy is free, and delivered free, and generates zero by products.

Yes, it takes energy to make the panels...but it takes energy to make concrete for a power plant, and concrete releases a lot of co2 in making and curing it.

The EPA figures that a well sited PV panel will offset the energy used to make it in 3-4 years, have a 25-30 year first life, and probably another 25 years of useful "second life", still making 50-70% of it's original output on a third world irrigation pump or village charge station.
 
No.. a Hybrid is just that.. a “Hybrid” (not a PHEV, or a BEV)
All its energy comes from the gasoline it burns, some is stored in a battery ( kinetic regen) for reuse via an electric motor.
But that is not a vehicle powered by just electrical energy from an external source.
And most manufacturers today have hybrid models in their range……including the Chinese manufacturers !

Again, NO, …you are the clown if you did not see the major flaw in the calculation used for that “AutoinsuranceEZ” study !
You're being obtuse...purposely or not, I can't tell. An ICE as used in a hybrid is not comparable to an ICE used alone, the reasons are obvious, and I've laid them out.

Show me the flaw in that insurance company study, several others show similar results.

Again, two cars, identical except one is ICE, one BEV...BEV gets 3.5 times the mileage the ICE does.
 
That's horrible. If that's the future of cars, I'm very disappointed in the people of the future. But considering as many toddlers as I see being shut down by getting a screen put in front of their faces, I suppose many will grow up into broken adults who'll be willing to buy such a thing.
 
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