a DC-DC to charge li-ion... GREAT!!

Hi
( again this probably could be posted eleswhere sorry)
Any pointers on how to do 4 parallel and 20 series neatly?

I know xyster likes to dremmel all the tabs and fold them over some noodle wires and solder the bejesus out of them. 4 across an then i guess two 10 rows for two subpacks i guess 33v 9 ah. Then solder one wire from each 4 p then end up with 40 (20 positive and 20 negative that i have to make into like 4pos and 4 neg something like that I just hope i don't screw it up there is these red-ee 2- connect for anderson powerpoles that i think it may be helpful.

http://www.reddee2.com/

any easier way of using the cells aout of new packs? (wishful thinker)

thanks in advance
efreak
 
efreak said:
Hi
( again this probably could be posted eleswhere sorry)
Any pointers on how to do 4 parallel and 20 series neatly?

I know xyster likes to dremmel all the tabs and fold them over some noodle wires and solder the bejesus out of them. 4 across an then i guess two 10 rows for two subpacks i guess 33v 9 ah. Then solder one wire from each 4 p then end up with 40 (20 positive and 20 negative that i have to make into like 4pos and 4 neg something like that I just hope i don't screw it up there is these red-ee 2- connect for anderson powerpoles that i think it may be helpful.

http://www.reddee2.com/

any easier way of using the cells aout of new packs? (wishful thinker)

thanks in advance
efreak

In case where you would accept to cut the existing 1p 10s tab and have fun with the drewmel, i suggest you to built 20x 4p 1s pack and to solder with 14 gauge wire all the parallel tab. and then to join each 1s4p pack in serie using 10 gauge wire to get your 20s.

In case where you want to keep the existing tab of the 10s 1p pack, simply join each each 1p tab together of the 4x 10s pack. you should get 11 wires that parallel 4x 10s1p pack to do the 10s 4p pack using 14 gauge wire. After that to get 20s 4p you only need to serie the two 10s 4p pack using a 10 gauge between those.

both are good.

I have also 20s 2p (4 x 10s1p) that was paralleled like the last method.

Doc
 
Doctorbass said:
they have a &?$&(?$(&%!! multipin connector that need correct voltage applied to unknow pin to activate the output!... mine have 102pin rectangular connector !!!

Doc

that is a lot of possibilities I remember the regular pc power supplies will provide the 12 or 24 volt output if there is a 5 volt load ( which i guess in atx power supply is the start button) on the 5 volts connection i don't know if that is the same for the ps you have there.


good luck

efreak
 
efreak said:
Doctorbass said:
they have a &?$&(?$(&%!! multipin connector that need correct voltage applied to unknow pin to activate the output!... mine have 102pin rectangular connector !!!

Doc

that is a lot of possibilities I remember the regular pc power supplies will provide the 12 or 24 volt output if there is a 5 volt load ( which i guess in atx power supply is the start button) on the 5 volts connection i don't know if that is the same for the ps you have there.


good luck

efreak

On the ATX PC power supply, if i remember correctly, it's the grey wire that need to be connected to the ground or the 5V and to balance the load in the transformer inside, you need to apply a load on the 5V if you plan to use the 12V out...


BUT in the BIG power supply that we are talking, i think it's very different!.. the 100+ pin connector i have on mine are probably many feedback signal from the main server unit that need to be enabled to activate the power output... a complicated combinaison of jumper! :|

Having the plans, that would be easy to find the way to start it.. but.. it very difficult with HP to get these!

Doc
 
Doctorbass said:
In case where you want to keep the existing tab of the 10s 1p pack, simply join each each 1p tab together of the 4x 10s pack. you should get 11 wires that parallel 4x 10s1p pack to do the 10s 4p pack using 14 gauge wire. After that to get 20s 4p you only need to serie the two 10s 4p pack using a 10 gauge between those.

...
I have also 20s 2p (4 x 10s1p) that was paralleled like the last method.

Doc

Hi Doc,

This my preffered method too, so if I am keeping existing tabs I just place 4 packs side by side
then solder two wires to cell number 1 of each pack then connect every cell one in these 4 packs to get the 4 parallel batteries for charging?? then do the same for cells number 2 thru 10 that would bring out 8 wires per 4 p cells ?connect to get 4p 4p 4p 4p ... 10 times plus the discharge wires?

is that what needs to be done?

thanks
efreak
 
exactly.

do not use the balancing connector. they allow only 3Amp max!!

solder 12 or 14gaige wires between battery tab 4p and that's it

Doc
 
great !!
i'll let you know hor to plug those

Doc
 
Hi

In page 11 of the datasheet
http://power.tycoelectronics.com/BinaryGet.aspx?ID=02c39fa8-b980-4ed3-ae07-0b21ba259203

it talks about out put voltage adjustment I calculated R adj up -45.38 K ohm value maybe right! for 10% increase. any how these are suppose to be a ble to deliver between 95% to %110 their rated output of 3.3 if they are adjusted either by trim or remote.

need to install a resistor between the trim and the sense + mY big concern heat dicipation i need heat sink no?
we are talking big heat i think

what i can figure anyhow

efreak
 
The heat dissipation is proportionnal to the waste of power.

Waste of power is the power that is'nt in the 80...% of efficienct.

Ex:

You have a DC-DC of 3.3V adjusted to +10% to get 3.65V
You will drive it to it's current limit protection of 20A.
It's efficiency is 80%

The power at output will be 3.65V * 20A = 73W at the output

But 73W is the 80%

You have 0.91W per 1%

So for the heat dissipation, you have 20% that is 20 * .91 = 18.2W.

You will need to dissipate around 18.2W.

for exemple, the old pentium 1 cpu heatsink+fan combo dissipate around 25W so the heatsing required for 18.2W would be similar. If your DC-DC and heatsink could be enclosed in a case, the ambient temperature will increase and the heat dissipatoin will be less efficient and would require largher heatsink.

To give you an idea of what would be sufisent, go to the R theta website and search in the heatsink database.

Also, at the end of your datasheet, you should have some calculation to know the right heatsink to use.

Doc
 
efreak said:
Hi

In page 11 of the datasheet
http://power.tycoelectronics.com/BinaryGet.aspx?ID=02c39fa8-b980-4ed3-ae07-0b21ba259203

it talks about out put voltage adjustment I calculated R adj up -45.38 K ohm value maybe right! for 10% increase. any how these are suppose to be a ble to deliver between 95% to %110 their rated output of 3.3 if they are adjusted either by trim or remote.

need to install a resistor between the trim and the sense + mY big concern heat dicipation i need heat sink no?
we are talking big heat i think

what i can figure anyhow

efreak

Question, How many DC-DC did you bought?

Doc
 
I think there are 48 modules in the lot

efreak
 
Hi,

Another thing i happen to notice is how these parts that do not end with a -Q in the part number seem to have slightly different datsheet specs regarding voltage trim limitations and the ones i am geting many thnaks to Gary Goodrum are of the ones without the -Q which my understanding is the ones with the lower voltage limits


I wonder what the q stands for

http://www.sierraic.info/datasheets/ds00-177.final.pdf this is the one without-Q

http://www.torontosurplus.com/tes/DataSpec/Tyco_QHW100F.pdfwith Q


fde6_12.JPG


I hope it is easily fixable

efreak
 
BTW it is not difficult to design a splitter circuit for transformerless AC mains input. What is required for the simplest case for a 1:3 divider is 3 big caps (connected in series) 3 power mosfets in parallel to each cap in the source follower configuration (2 n-channel and 1 p-channel) and 3 resistors to provide low current reference divider for mosfet gates (plus bridge rectifier). This gives you a circuit that provides 3 buses of 110V*1.4/3=52V. As long as these buses are loaded equally there is no power dissipation in the mosfets ! (explanation below) In reality there will be some variation in loading but it will be small compared to the charger power that is assuming number of cells /active converters is a multiple of 3. If it is not - keep reading (some math required) -

A bit of explanation (for those less invovled in EE):

1. Assuming 3-way bus splitter let us call bus currents I1, I2, I3. There are 4 wires total feeding the converter buses connected to 3 series capacitors. According to the Kirchoff's current law the currents on these wires will be I1, I2-I1, I3-I2, -I3 respectively. If the currents I1, I2 and I3 are approximately equal (lets cal it I)the wire currents will be I, 0, 0, I which means the middle points of the capacitor chain gets no DC current. All current comes from the mains. This condition means that input (splitter) balancing power dissipation is zero.

2. Each DC converter presents itself approximately as a constant power load (at least on a short time scale) Vi*Ii = Pconst. That is at a given output power the lower is the input voltage the *higher* is the input current. This means that balance condition (1) is inherently unstable - the higher is the voltage difference in the power spliter the larger is the current forcing the splitter out of balance. This is called unstable equilibrium (like a trying to balance a ball on a top of a larger sphere) - therefore an active servo is required to maintain equilibrium. Yet as long as the equilibrium is maintained there is no power dissipation by the servo circuit.

3. If power loading on 3 buses is not equal but nearly constant - let's call it P1, P2, P3 then adding a condition Vi1 + Vi2 + Vi3 = Vtotal = 110V * 1.4 = 155V, then requiring Ii1 = Ii2 = Ii3 a system of equations can be solved yeilding exact voltage split ratio needed to satisfy equilibrium condition and therefore no power loss in servo circuit ! This means it is perfectly OK to have 3 converters on bus 1, 3 on bus 2 and 4 on bus 3 for a 10s charger. If a moderately higher voltage is supplied to bus 3 then the equilibrium condition can be attained. This simply means that 3-resistor voltage divider must be approprietly calculated.

4. If power loading on 3 buses varies dynamically (what really matters is the power ratios which do not change much in our application) then a dynamic servo can be designed using current sensor on two intermediate buses with goal to nullify all intermediate bus currents by adjusting mosfet current and resepective bus voltage. As long as servo succeeds in doing that there will be no power dissipation on mosfets.

I've thought of some circuits for the dynamic mode but I do not really think dynamic tracking is needed. A bit of balancing current through mosfets for static case is not critical.
 
Just to illustrate the splitter -
 

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As a matter of fact DCDC converter modules already have input capacitors built in. Since the current on the middle wires is minimal these could be sufficient (some testing required). In this case the circuit is even simpler -
 

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great idea Curious!
:wink:

like you said, if each modules have the same load, there will be no heat dissipation.

Doc
 
I forgot the usual *DISCLAIMER* for AC coupled circuits -
1. A large number of connections in the transformerless front-end are directly coupled to AC line (entire primary side of all DCDC converters).
2. A DC voltage of 160V or possibly higher is present on some connections.
Because of (1) and (2) *extreme* care must be taken when building, testing and operating this circuit. Also proper enclosure is a *must* for any practical use.
 
I am still undecided if I want to design my own charger or use your converter idea. The good thing about it is that it scales to multi-kW range easily. The bad thing is that it relies on surplus stock of converters (with a list price for converters this approach becomes impractical). And by the way you guys bought all suitable stuff on ebay :).

When you go into multi-kW range though it is advisable to have PFC (power factor correction) front-end instead of rectifier feeding the cap. Otherwise the harmonics created by a 10kW charger will (i) case excessive losses on powerline, (ii) generate a lot of RFI. The PFC stage switcher can be isolating and create the desired 48V bus.
 
Yes, Using my Kill a Watt meter, I noted a power factor of 0.71 when using a single converter with a 30A 3.6V load. The transformer i use is my big 1kW 30Vac 33A coupled with a 35A bridge rectifier and a large 100000uF 50V caps.

I've thought about your idea before using resistor divider and big caps, but i wasn't confident about the risk of unbalancing voltage on the input of one of the dc-dc even if the load would'nt be perfectly equilibrated..... I wouldn't had blown a dc-dc if the voltage could increade over 75Vdc to one and the rest in the next.

Also, your idea if pratical about the weight of the charger... a big 1kW transfo would weight alot more than few mosfet and caps!.. most of the DC-DC are isolated between in and out and that is also great for safety.

I would like to put my hand on a cheap DC-DC with an AC input or a 200VDC input :)

Doc
 
curious said:
And by the way you guys bought all suitable stuff on ebay :).

Not so, I'm happy to say. Seems like the same guy I got mine from has some BXB150-48S05FLTs left.

The ones I got from him look brand new in an Artesyn plastic case with an inspection date of 5-29-01 so they're new old stock. He told me he sells many.

Could this splitter circuit be used with 230VAC * 1.4 (rectified) = 322VDC split six ways like this? To give 6 x 54VDC?
 

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Passive resistor divider is impractical for two reasons: (i) it will constantly dissipate power, (ii) because of unstable equilibrium the resistors have to have very low value and even then there is a risk of sliding out of equilibrium state. The fact that balance equilibrium is unstable makes an active splitter pretty much a must. BTW I checked suitable mosfet prices - they are few bucks a piece at digikey.

It is possible to build very compact charger this way - what is needed is a good active cooling scheme. I was thinking of a piece of rectangular aluminum tube with fan at each edge blowing the air through the tube and all active components (converters, splitter mosfets, rectifier bridge) mounted to the outer 4 sides of the rectangular tube. Could be very compact.
 
flip_normal said:
Could this splitter circuit be used with 230VAC * 1.4 (rectified) = 322VDC split six ways like this? To give 6 x 54VDC?
Why not ?

I have to emphasize once again that you have to decide on a power split across buses in advance. If you have a 20s pack and 6 buses you will have 2 buses with 4 converters in parallel and 4 buses with 3 converters in parallel. This is OK but you need to use proper and unequal voltage split to satisfy equilibrium conditions. The unequal voltage split is OK since converters have a wide input range.

BTW if we are talking about a practical front-end circuit few things I suggest:
1. Include a zener in the splitter chain between n-channel and p-channel mosfets. This will reduce the regulation slop due to 2x gate threshold voltage. The zener voltage drop should be conservatively chosen such that there is zero quiescent current at all thermal conditions. (See the circuit at the end of the post.)
2. Add a big inrush current limiter before the cap (these are available at digikey).
3. For p-channel mosfet IRFP9140 can be used, for n-channel IRFP140. I do not see the reason for these to have full span voltage rating - if it ever gets there all converters will be fried as well. A 100V mosfet should be sufficient IMHO.
4. Reference divider current should not be too small to have good dynamic response. I'd say 1ma minimum.
 

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flip_normal said:
Not so, I'm happy to say. Seems like the same guy I got mine from has some BXB150-48S05FLTs left.
I was thinking about the Lucent ones that Doc mentioned. They are nearly 1/2 the size of BXB150 and I really want a very compact charger (20-24s).
 
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