About to get a MAC motor - Input Appreciated!

J

JoaqThroughRivers

10 mW
Joined
Oct 17, 2013
Messages
27
Location
Eugene, Oregon
Hey, I've been reading around these forums for the last couples weeks and just joined.

I am about to build my first electric bike, and I have acquired most of the details that I need and would like.

The goal:
To set up a bike that can help take me up a large hill to school and back, which is <=2mi each way, as well as ride along flat at >=25mph.

Situation:
I am not sure of the grade of the hill and it varies a lot. Riding manually; at points I am in my lowest gear, and going an estimated 3-5mph. I am quite fit, and can make the whole hill, but it is a challenge each time. The hill has a peak at about 1.5mi in and dives down towards my school.
I also will be riding flat ground a lot, as I live in a valley. I would like to go at least 25mph on flat, and get a good 30-40mi distance if possible.

Bike:
I am going to be putting it on my 700c Diamondback overdrive mountain bike until I buy a frame that I will dedicate to being electric.

Kit that I am looking at:
MAC Upgraded from EM3ev - 8T or 10T (Some help on this decision would be great) --- I understand that the 8T will give me more top speed and the 10T will give me more torque.
50V Triangle battery Li NMC - 18.5aH - http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=123

Controller - ??? --- I am not sure if the 6FET would cut it. Should I being using the 9FET instead? Which version would I want, the one which works up to 52V, or 72V?
Charger - Will it suffice? - http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=120
BMS - Would this one suffice? - http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=75

Any input from experience or general knowledge would be wonderful, especially regarding the controller.

With torrents of gratitude,

Joaq
 
10 t for the hill for sure.

The battery will come with a bms, so you don't need another.

All of his chargers are good. Just communicate which battery you bought. Unless I'm wrong, you have to buy the charger separate. But check on that, to be sure before you order.

On the controller, 25 amps should get you up a very steep hill, like 10%. Even one a couple miles long. In the USA, Map My Ride is a good source for finding out the grade of your hill. Map just the hill, or even just a section of the steepest part for a more accurate result.

You won't need a 72v controller. Get one that matches your battery voltage. If you buy a too oversize controller, it just causes more wear and tear on the battery. A 25 amps will get you a bit over 1000w so unless you are more into performance than having the battery last, you don't want a big amps controller. 9 fet is plenty for a commute. I've done 10,000 miles on 6 fet controllers.

To go 30-40 miles on that size battery, you'd have to ride very slow. Like 15 mph or less. But 18 ah will take you a solid 25 miles at 25 mph, including that hill. To get 30 miles, you won't have to slow that much.
 
+1 to dogmans post above this. Also, pay the $15 extra to get the fatter phase wires and factory-installed temp sensor. You can start out with the controller restricting the amps a lot, then slowly raise the amps until heat starts to become a problem. Once you have the max-amps setting that will not overheat your motor on your particular hill...you can ride without having to constantly pay attention to it.

Also agree on MAC-10T @ 48V, probably the most useful set-up for the widest variety of conditions. Even if you decide later that you want something different, you can easily sell a 10T/48V...just give someone a test-ride.

"MAC geared hub-motor specs, teardown, and pics"
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=51310
 
Have been running one of Cellman's MAC 10T's, with his 9 fet 30A controller and Ping 48v 15Ah battery for a few years now.
It is definitely a really nice set-up, with very smooth ramp up and strong mid range torque.
The 3 speed switch runs at 15/22 and 27mph, which is max speed on the flat. That's on the 9 fet controller, others may be programmed differently!

The only thing I would change these days, is upgrade to one of Cellman's Samsung triangle batteries. They weren't available at the time and are a kilo or two lighter than an equivalent Ping. The 20R should sag less near the end of its capacity than most off the shelf batteries too.

Oh, and don't forget to fit at least one good torque arm. MAC's have loads of torque, even with Cellman's stock 25A controller.

Vote Cellman for President :p
 
+1 I enjoy my MAC 10T more than my DD hub on 48v to be certain. But doesnt mean that I dont like my DD hub because it has its uses as well. I enjoy both of them but prefer the MAC more.
 
Thank you all so much for the input! I already see the awesome community here at Endless.

Is EM3ed the domain of Cellman that you all are referring to?

Don't need a BMS, great!
I will check on the charger, thank you. - I am currently under the assumption that they don't come with chargers normally.
10T it is.

I just checked out mapmyride, and I logged the steepest part of the climb which is about 1 mile. Turns out from my house to my school is ~4.4mi, and the uphill climb is ~2.5mi. It looks like it gets up to 10-11% for the steepest part of the climb. Thanks for the tip on that site. I was looking for something like that; the last one I found was weak and hard to use.
http://www.mapmyride.com/routes/view/312317193

Would it be worth getting 25aH for an extra $300 or would I be better off using the 18.5aH for my normal commutes, and buying another 10/15/20 aH rack battery to add onto it when I want to travel 40+mi? Would I need to use another 50V to parallel to the current 50V or could I use another voltage?

For 18aH 25mi at 25mph sounds great, and I plan to be pedaling a lot ~ I understand that may change when I have a throttle, but I like to raise my heart rate and exercise, so it shouldn't be a problem ~ Does pedaling heavily increase it much? (on flat +/- 3-4% grade, without the giant hill is when I would be traveling long distances)

@Dogman, you mentioned you've used a 6 fet for many miles, and you also say a 9 fet is plenty for a commute. Does that mean that a 6 fet would work fine for my circumstances, or that I would be better off with a 9 fet?

@spinningmagnets, I didn't see the option for the fatter phase wires and temp sensor, but I will check again, and email him if I cannot find that option. Thanks for the tip.

@alfantastic, thank you for the very similar experiential input and the tip on the torque arm. Got any recommendations of who to buy the torque arm from? I found something that looks like a torque arm on the bike path the other day. I still haven't checked to see if it fits as one, but it was quite awesome, the synchronicity. I also went by a front wheel to school, and on the way back 6-7hrs later, it was still there, and I took that as well.

Gratitude for all ~ only a few steps away from ordering the kit.
 
Just to give you an idea on the distance you can achieve with a 10T on full throttle, I had a run out today, maxxing the throttle at every opportunity. Plenty of short steep climbs too. I only pedalled on the very steep bits, the rest all throttle only.
Using a Ping 48v 15Ah battery with Cellman's 9 fet 30A controller, I reached 22 Miles with 14.2 Ah used from the pack. At this point, the battery hadn't reached the LVC, but I knocked the speed switch down to 15mph, so I could make it home without pedalling.
Voltage drop was quite drastic at this point too, and I doubt if I could have got more than another Mile or two at the higher speed level.
I see no reason why that 25 Ah battery from Cellman wouldn't give you a 30-40 mile range :D
 
I didn't see the option for the fatter phase wires and temp sensor
Click to expand...

Look for the $385 system (the upgraded stator means thinner laminations of 0.35mm as opposed to 0.50mm, to reduce eddy current losses at higher RPMs): http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=36

This is our new and improved version of the Mac motor, supplied as a kit. Our new version Mac now includes the same mods as before, both the upgraded phase wires and LM35 temp sensor, but now also includes an upgraded stator which offers improved efficiency and the ability to operate at higher rpm than were possible with the standard stator
Click to expand...
 
10T 48V has been an awesome setup for me, i opted for 12fet controller. Just check the temperatures in the summer time to make sure it doesnt get too hot on the hill. the upgraded motor has a temp sensor, you can check it with a volt meter.
 
Sounds like 9 fet it is. What would be the downside of a 6 fet, just so I'm aware. If possible, an explanation of why would be appreciated as well.

@spinningmagnets - I am planning on getting the upgraded system. Thanks for assisting the growth of my knowledge. I didn't notice the blurb which says the specific components that are upgraded.

@alfantastic - thank you for the relevant experience. I'm probably going with the 18.5aH for now, as to save some dough for stretching into different shapes.

@RLD70 - I was thinking about getting a DD first until I found this Mac. Glad to hear that you like your Mac better. It seems like more of the one for me too. If you were to be using it on trails and offroad, would DD or Geared be a better choice?

@el_walto - Good to hear you've had a great experience. I will check the temps in the summer. How do you mean by checking the temps with a voltmeter? Is it pretty self explanatory once I get it?

Thank you all.
 
Depends on what the trails consist of Id say. If theyre really rugged, the DD would be the better choice as the geared hub is a very complex machine unlike the DD hub. One wrong hit to the wheel could end your riding on the geared. I still have no clue as to how my race bearing broke on the sprocket side of the mac although I could take a guess and say that some of the back roads that I ride on arent exactly the smoothest to ride on. Ive tried to stay on the smoothest parts on the roads but it still broke. I know jumping with a geared motor is a big no-no as that can break the motor and thats from what Ive seen here on ES although I dont know for sure and I have no intention on finding out. If you want to abuse the motor use the DD hub as it is more reliable for abuse but both hub types will serve you for years as long as you take care of them. I cant wait to get the mac back out on the road but I have to wait for 2 things to happen, 1- the new bearings and 2- my right shoulder to heal from being hit by a car while riding the DD bike :evil:
 
I prefer the dd motors, but in the super slow winding versions for trail riding. In cooler weather, I can run a big 12 fet 40 amps controller and have more power than you'd typically recommend running through a mac. It's not that the motor climbs better, it's that it radiates the excess heat better.

But a mac on 1500-2000w will still kick ass on trails, particularly a 12T one. It will take longer to cool off so you can ride more though.

My climate is so hot, I always fry a motor long before a controller gets hot enough to fail. But if you are running lower power, like 25 amps, I don't see why a 6 fet should fail all that soon. Even on that 10% hill. I've climbed hills that steep 10 miles long with little 6 fet controllers. But in order to save the motor, I was not running more than 15 amps through the controller.

I just wanted to make the point that just because you want 12, 18, or 24 fets on a performance bike, it does not mean you need 12 fets to run 20 amps continuous. The small controllers can handle that.
 
JoaqThroughRivers said:
Sounds like 9 fet it is. What would be the downside of a 6 fet, just so I'm aware. If possible, an explanation of why would be appreciated as well.

Thank you all.
Click to expand...

More fets in the controller can dissipate more heat and push more current. More current = more torque and more heat in your motor. 40amp controller will have much more hill climbing ability than a 25amp controller, but a 40 amp controller could burn your motor up if you let the motor gets too by climbing very steep long hills.

If you wire a volt meter up to the temperature sensor 1.0V on the screen equals 100 degree c motor temp. 150c is absolute max temperature of motor, but most people suggest running under 100c i think.
 
Awesome, thank you all for your input.

I put my order in:
10T MAC in 700c wheel
9 fet controller
half-throttle
cycle analyst v3 DPS
Rear Torque arm
50V 18.5Ah triangle battery with case
14s charger

Added up to be more money than I thought, but I did it. Couldn't...resist.......temptation! :p

I will probably write a review when I get it and post a pic of my bike's setup. Should the dedicated bike be rigid or front suspension..hmm?
I will also probably try it on my commuter and my MT Bike. A Giant Prodigy, Chromoly steel, rigid 700c, with drop bars, and an aluminum Diamondback overdrive V 29er, for kicks and comparisons.

If I want to extend my range at some point, how would I connect another battery to it? Would it have to be the same Voltage?
 
Yes the extra battery would have to be the same voltage as the first but the Ah doesnt have to be. You would parallel them together pos to pos and neg to neg. It will be the same voltage just different Ah, i.e. 48v 20Ah + 48v 10Ah = 48v 30Ah.
 
JoaqThroughRivers said:
Awesome, thank you all for your input.

I put my order in:
10T MAC in 700c wheel
9 fet controller
half-throttle
cycle analyst v3 DPS
Rear Torque arm
50V 18.5Ah triangle battery with case
14s charger

Added up to be more money than I thought, but I did it. Couldn't...resist.......temptation! :p

I will probably write a review when I get it and post a pic of my bike's setup. Should the dedicated bike be rigid or front suspension..hmm?
I will also probably try it on my commuter and my MT Bike. A Giant Prodigy, Chromoly steel, rigid 700c, with drop bars, and an aluminum Diamondback overdrive V 29er, for kicks and comparisons.

If I want to extend my range at some point, how would I connect another battery to it? Would it have to be the same Voltage?
Click to expand...

You can use the cycle analyst to auto monitor temperature of the hub motor, i believe it does require a small modification to work with the temp sensors em3ev sells(unless they have changed the sensor to thermister type)
 
JoaqThroughRivers said:
... Added up to be more money than I thought, but I did it. Couldn't...resist.......temptation!
Click to expand...

Hear you on that. Grand total a bit more than I expected. Bit the bullet and placed order. Couldn't be happier with it, a ton of fun, some of the best money I ever spent. (Not the absolute best mind you, as it didn't involve girls or psychedelics, but still mighty fine!)
 
I am installing the same kit right now. Having some small problems with build but should be figured out in a day or two.
rode it just up and down the street and wow can't wait to sort everything out and start enjoying this puppy. So far very happy with the kit quality.
Will write up a full kit build as soon as I finish.
RC
 
Hey again,

I just received my EM3EV MAC Wheel with battery, controller, Cycleanalyst, rear torque arm, and all the goods.

Is there a tutorial located anywhere on how to set it all up?
I searched to forums to no avail.

I got as far as putting the motor into the motor hub in the wheel. I am not sure what to do next.
There a 2 normal, circular washers (spacers?)
2 other washers that are squared on 2 sides, kind of like a squared elliptical. Each of these has a small rectangle protruding out at a 50-60 degree angle.
2 Large axle nuts.

Any help would be amazing, thank you!
 
You can connect everything up and spin the motor with the wheel off of the ground, but...don't ride it until you have a solid torque-arm properly attached.

"Torque arm picture thread"
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26444

If you don't, the high torque of this system will spin-out the axles and rip the wires out of the hub. Fixing would require dis-assembling the motor and soldering them back together:

file.php
 
@Spinning Magnets - Thanks for the cautionary tip. I will be sure to install my torque arm first.

I'm still confused on where those washers go that have the protruding angle. Do they go on the axle first with the hooks facing inward, towards the hub?
And are the other normal circular washers just for spacers?
 
How much was your shipping charges?

Also did you get dinged for customs and duties?
 
It's a tight fit, but put one washer on the inside of dropout(the one facing inwards), put the round washer on the outside of the dropout. You really don't' have much of a choice unless you want to pull all the connectors off. If the washer on the inside rubs on the gear freewheel(it will be really close), get a smaller freewheel, or you will need another spacer.
 
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