Advice regarding 'do-it all' ebike

[vnlj]

I have recently caught onto the idea of converting my Trek DS (8.3 DS, 2015ish, 700c) into an ebike. I have no prior experience with DIY-ebiking but consider myself technical competent and somewhat handy. I have read rigourosly on various ebike sites and concluded that I will be well served with some adviced from you guys here at Endless-sphere.

First and foremost I intend to use the bike as a commuter on a more or less daily basis. The terrain here is pretty varied. I'll be travelling paved and brick-laid road, some gravel. On my commute there are a couple of short steep hills and some low grade ones as well. But I imagine using the bike more once its an electric, so I would like it to be able to handle more ‘heat-challenging’ routes. Keep in mind my knowledge of what type of terrain and usage demand what kind of setup is most limited. I enjoy biking and have no problem doing so without any assistant on my (usually) very short commutes. But I would like to go a bit faster and do so without building up a sweat. I am pretty lightweight (150 pounds), my bike - not so much. It’s not MTB-heavy but not exactly roadster-light. Ebikes are common here and under EU-restrictions. And I live in the city, so the bike should not draw attention. Needless to say, I won’t be swoosh-ing the streets at 40kph. However, I appriciate having the opportunity to go at an enjoyable (that is, high) speed if an affordable and discreet setup allows me to. I don’t intend to spend an awful amount (partly because of sky-high import taxes), but I am willing to stretch it relative to the following setup of which I am temporarily settled on.

- Bafang SWXH: http://www.greenbikekit.com/bafang-swxh-bldc-hub-engines.html
- S06S Torque Simulation Sine Wave Controller (max 15A? Not sure I understand controller-ratings and their implications): https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/546-s06s-250w-torque-simulation-sine-wave-controller-ebike-kit.html
- 48v 12.5 Ah battery, 20A continuous discharge current: https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/817-48v116ah-case-08-bottle-panasonic-battery-pack-battery.html
My reasoning here follows a compromise between weight, stealth, performance and cost.

But on this I have some questions:
1. What kind of speed and climbing abilities would I be likely to get?
2. And what kind of range? (I don’t have major expectations. Decided to save on battery and reckoned the above is adequate in near any circumstance as I’ll be pedaling along)
3. Given that the bike will face the occasional steep hill and long rapid descents, will there be a problem in terms of heat generation?
4. What RPM will best suffice my needs?
5. Could I be better served by another type of battery? Insights on RC lipo-types from HK?

From what I have managed to gather I am fairly certain that my needs with regard to the first two questions will be satisfied through this setup. So emphasis probably falls on the third.

As accessories goes:
- PAS and three-step level switch (number of poles on PAS? Does it matter?)
- Generic China-LCD, whichever the prettiest (least-ugly) (Maybe CA in future. Too expensive atm)
- Ebike brake levers or HBWS, depending on which is most convenient on my bike (Brake wires are coated all the way, so probably ebrakes? Can I keep the existing wiring and just pop them right in the ebrakes?)
- 7-speed freewheel, as I have understood is needed
- Maybe a thumb throttle just for fun (can I have both throttle and PAS with the opportunity to switch between?)
- What else do I need?

Apart from all outlined above, I have slight worries about the bike looking totally frankensteiny. Suggestions with regards to cabeling, placement of controller, etc? Can I drill holes in the frame and run cables through there?


Of course I am open to all kinds of suggestions alternative to the above setup. I am sure you will have tons, and now you know a little bit about my situation. I really hope you can supply me with some fruitful advice. I’m thankful for all!

 

[sabongi]

http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html

 

[amberwolf]

- PAS and three-step level switch (number of poles on PAS? Does it matter?)

- Generic China-LCD, whichever the prettiest (least-ugly) (Maybe CA in future. Too expensive atm)

For both of these parts, make sure you get the one that is made for the specific controller you use. A different one may not work at all. Get it with the controller if possible (and remember that just because it is sold by the same vendor as the controller does NOT mean it works with the controller; you have to verify that it will work with the controller you get.

Also note the CA is not an "LCD for a controller", it's a complete independent monitoring and control system that takes your inputs and preferences and controls throttle and brake lines to tell the existing controller what to do, and it works with any controller.

LCDs that come with controllers directly communicate with and program a controller, and work only with specific controllers they are designed to work with. A number of controllers will not work at all without their specific LCD attached and working. Some will power on if you hack some wiring, but may only operate in their lowest-level default mode without the LCD to tell it what to do.

So some controllers will still require you use the regular LCD to turn them on and set them to the level you want them at, plus the CA to further refine the control of it the way you want it.

- Ebike brake levers or HBWS, depending on which is most convenient on my bike

The ebrake levers are usually pretty cheaply made and may not have the same response your existing levers do.

HWBS is one option; you can also add your own switches to your existing levers or the brake arms, etc., to trigger ebrake action (wahtever your controller is setup to do when engaging them).

- 7-speed freewheel, as I have understood is needed

If your existing bike doesn't use the same thing, you may have to change your shifter/chain/etc. depending on what you already have. It's one reason front hubs are used, when people don't want to deal with chainline/shifting issues from changing things back there.

- Maybe a thumb throttle just for fun (can I have both throttle and PAS with the opportunity to switch between?)

Make sure the controller you get is capable of using both--some are, some are not.

Suggestions with regards to cabeling, placement of controller, etc?

Ebikes.ca has a cabling cover and tiedown kit, available in a few colors.

Can I drill holes in the frame and run cables through there?

I don't recommend that, unless you know about structures and can judge what might be safe to do. Holes in the wrong places lead to extra stresses the frame wasn't designed for and can result in cracks and breakage while riding. Even if you think you know what you're doing with it, it can still result in unexpected problems. (I've done this myself).

 

[docw009]

I put an SWXH on an old bike last year. I believe it's used a lot in 250W 36V applications. I run it between 36V and 48V. I don't know if 40 km/hour is possible on 48 volts. I recall approaching 35 km/hour on 52 volts. I use a similar 500W controller from BMSBattery, but it's square wave. The controller you reference is limited to 36V only.

Buy the whole controller, LCD, and options from the same vendor and you can be reasonably sure that the connectors are correct and everything is compatible.

For the small Q100H motors on two ebikes I built this year, I'm using 20A square wave controllers from PSWpower that will run on either 36 or 48V. I have two and they work fine, except for motor whine. I tried their sine wave controller model first, but my sample didn't work right with my Q100H or the Bafang SWXH. Probably an isolated failure, but being as it only cost $24, I didn't pursue the matter. You can option the LCD, throttle, PAS sensor, speed sensor, and brakes for nominal extra cost. Also, their price for the LCD was good.
http://www.pswpower.com/peng/iview.asp?KeyID=dtpic-2016-3F-3VM4.50CMJ

The SXWH makes for a fine Euro style bike for pedal assisted riding. If you want to go 40 km/hour, I would suggest a bigger motor. We have no steep hills where I live.

If you're electrically inclined, you can put the throtttle, LCD, and brake wires into a single 10 wire cable and run that to the handlebars, and it will look like a gear shift cable. I do solder and I do shorten cables and dress them. If you cannot do that, well it might be a frankenstein look.

 

[vnlj]

@docw009 Thanks for your insight. I see now that the controller I linked to is limited to 36v, yes. I'm not sure I understand the ratings used on controllers. Or else I may not understand how controllers work in relation to the battery and motor. Why is it that controllers that limit output to 20 or 25A usually are rated 500w, when wattage ouput equals voltage of battery times amp drawn from controller? (48*20=960/36*20=720)

 

[motomech]

I have recently caught onto the idea of converting my Trek DS (8.3 DS, 2015ish, 700c) into an ebike. I have no prior experience with DIY-ebiking but consider myself technical competent and somewhat handy. I have read rigourosly on various ebike sites and concluded that I will be well served with some adviced from you guys here at Endless-sphere.

First and foremost I intend to use the bike as a commuter on a more or less daily basis. The terrain here is pretty varied. I'll be travelling paved and brick-laid road, some gravel. On my commute there are a couple of short steep hills and some low grade ones as well. But I imagine using the bike more once its an electric, so I would like it to be able to handle more ‘heat-challenging’ routes. Keep in mind my knowledge of what type of terrain and usage demand what kind of setup is most limited. I enjoy biking and have no problem doing so without any assistant on my (usually) very short commutes. But I would like to go a bit faster and do so without building up a sweat. I am pretty lightweight (150 pounds), my bike - not so much. It’s not MTB-heavy but not exactly roadster-light. Ebikes are common here and under EU-restrictions. And I live in the city, so the bike should not draw attention. Needless to say, I won’t be swoosh-ing the streets at 40kph. However, I appriciate having the opportunity to go at an enjoyable (that is, high) speed if an affordable and discreet setup allows me to. I don’t intend to spend an awful amount (partly because of sky-high import taxes), but I am willing to stretch it relative to the following setup of which I am temporarily settled on.

- Bafang SWXH: http://www.greenbikekit.com/bafang-swxh-bldc-hub-engines.html
- S06S Torque Simulation Sine Wave Controller (max 15A? Not sure I understand controller-ratings and their implications): https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/546-s06s-250w-torque-simulation-sine-wave-controller-ebike-kit.html
- 48v 12.5 Ah battery, 20A continuous discharge current: https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/817-48v116ah-case-08-bottle-panasonic-battery-pack-battery.html
My reasoning here follows a compromise between weight, stealth, performance and cost.

But on this I have some questions:
1. What kind of speed and climbing abilities would I be likely to get?
2. And what kind of range? (I don’t have major expectations. Decided to save on battery and reckoned the above is adequate in near any circumstance as I’ll be pedaling along)
3. Given that the bike will face the occasional steep hill and long rapid descents, will there be a problem in terms of heat generation?
4. What RPM will best suffice my needs?
5. Could I be better served by another type of battery? Insights on RC lipo-types from HK?

From what I have managed to gather I am fairly certain that my needs with regard to the first two questions will be satisfied through this setup. So emphasis probably falls on the third.

As accessories goes:
- PAS and three-step level switch (number of poles on PAS? Does it matter?)
- Generic China-LCD, whichever the prettiest (least-ugly) (Maybe CA in future. Too expensive atm)
- Ebike brake levers or HBWS, depending on which is most convenient on my bike (Brake wires are coated all the way, so probably ebrakes? Can I keep the existing wiring and just pop them right in the ebrakes?)
- 7-speed freewheel, as I have understood is needed
- Maybe a thumb throttle just for fun (can I have both throttle and PAS with the opportunity to switch between?)
- What else do I need?

Apart from all outlined above, I have slight worries about the bike looking totally frankensteiny. Suggestions with regards to cabeling, placement of controller, etc? Can I drill holes in the frame and run cables through there?


Of course I am open to all kinds of suggestions alternative to the above setup. I am sure you will have tons, and now you know a little bit about my situation. I really hope you can supply me with some fruitful advice. I’m thankful for all!

It sounds like you would be a good canidate for a 2WD using a pr. Of Q100H motors. Use the mid-speed (260) motors and the controllers Doc reffered to. Also use two batteries(48V), like a rack batt. for the rear system and a "bottle Battery" for the frt. and 2 throttles. You will end up w/ a bike that will do 25mph and climb about anything, while retaining a stealthy look.

 

[motomech]

@docw009 Thanks for your insight. I see now that the controller I linked to is limited to 36v, yes. I'm not sure I understand the ratings used on controllers. Or else I may not understand how controllers work in relation to the battery and motor. Why is it that controllers that limit output to 20 or 25A usually are rated 500w, when wattage ouput equals voltage of battery times amp drawn from controller? (48*20=960/36*20=720)

Remember, it's the Chinese that are rating their own products, so I wouldn't sear ch for too much logic there.
A controller rated 20 Amps will only see that for a sec. on take off. Usually, a sustained cruise will have the controller at about half it's rated power.
The relationship between Amp, Volts and Watts is a good start in your understanding.
And when trying to understand how controllers, motors and batteries inter-relate, throw everything you know about internal combustion engines out the window.
A good place to start is here;
http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html

 

[d8veh]

Please show us exactly which bike you want to convert. A photo would help. Where do you live? Please fill in your profile info. It's important if you want relevant advice.

 

[docw009]

An update on my SWXH on a 700cc wheel. S06P controller on 48V battery pushing 50 volts.
35 km/hr (22 mph) into the wind) and 42 km/hr (26mph) with wind at my back, all throttle.|
Wattmeter said 22 A peak. Speedometer uncalibrated though. It's the LCD display. Could be 10% high.

 

[vnlj]

Please show us exactly which bike you want to convert. A photo would help. Where do you live? Please fill in your profile info. It's important if you want relevant advice.

http://s7d4.scene7.com/is/image/TrekBicycleProducts/Asset_125070?wid=1490&hei=1080&fit=fit,1&fmt=png-alpha&qlt=80,1&op_usm=0,0,0,0&iccEmbed=0
Specs: https://archive.trekbikes.com/us/en/2014/Trek/8_3_ds#/us/en/2014/Trek/8_3_ds/details
I live in Bergen, Norway. Should be on my profile now.

It sounds like you would be a good canidate for a 2WD using a pr. Of Q100H motors. Use the mid-speed (260) motors and the controllers Doc reffered to. Also use two batteries(48V), like a rack batt. for the rear system and a "bottle Battery" for the frt. and 2 throttles. You will end up w/ a bike that will do 25mph and climb about anything, while retaining a stealthy look.

That would probably make for really good performance, but I don't think it would be a practical solution for me. Lots of extra components, wiring and weight. It would also add up to be quite expensive, esp with the extra battery. And I would like to keep it to a frame style battery, getting a low point of gravity. And I dont know how my suspension fork would handle a hub.

An update on my SWXH on a 700cc wheel. S06P controller on 48V battery pushing 50 volts.
35 km/hr (22 mph) into the wind) and 42 km/hr (26mph) with wind at my back, all throttle.|
Wattmeter said 22 A peak. Speedometer uncalibrated though. It's the LCD display. Could be 10% high.

Wow! Any idea how its handling that heat-wise?

--
All things considered I think I may have changed my mind entirely and want to go with a mid drive instead, Bafang BBS02 (the 'b' version - 48v750w) and a battery capable of putting out 25-30 amps continously. I had pretty much ruled out mid drive because I thought it would interfere with the gear and brake cables running underneath the bottom tube on mye bike. But after watching a great installation video on youtube I realised that it does not necassarily do so. First of all it just seems like an easier solution. It comes with everything you need except the battery. And with the internal controller and PAS system (how is that on the BBS02, btw?) so much wire clutter is just eliminated. Also, I don't need a new wheel and pay someone to build it (I just don't have confident in those prebuilt-ones from China, nor my ability to do so myself). And with regards to performance I imagine the feel will be better, and I've understood heat buildup is not so much of a problem when it comes to climbing - that it manages to do so at low speeds. I thought I could get more bang for my buck with an economical hub-system, but I think my expectations are at that point where I have to spend as much or more to get a hub system that's (in my mind and situation) combarable to the BBS02.

So basically:
- BBS02: http://www.pswpower.com/peng/iview.asp?KeyID=dtpic-2014-3C-S316.027VD
- 48v battery: http://www.pswpower.com/peng/iview.asp?KeyID=dtpic-2016-B2-A7B0.63VSH OR http://www.pswpower.com/peng/iview.asp?KeyID=dtpic-2017-3N-2CAG.9DSUG (advocates for either one of those? With regards to quality of both cells and frame)
- HBWS so I can use my own levers and hopefully get good cutoff reaction time. Plus it can be installed close to the motor and reduce clutter. Could someone please explain to me if I can just cut right through the brake wires and make a connection point wherever?

Another thing on my mind is the huge connectors between the components on the BBS07, some of which lines up right by the handlebar. Can I remove these connectors and solder them toghether instead? Does a thight heatshrink waterproof properly?

If you're electrically inclined, you can put the throtttle, LCD, and brake wires into a single 10 wire cable and run that to the handlebars, and it will look like a gear shift cable. I do solder and I do shorten cables and dress them. If you cannot do that, well it might be a frankenstein look.

Could you elaborate on that, and if possible with specific regard to the BBS02?

--
With regards to stealth I think the potential for å 'clean' setup is greater with a mid drive than a hub motor. I mean its noticable as an electric anyways as I want to go with a frame battery, and there is less components with a mid drive. And with that kind of setup I actually could go 40kph! Thoughts?

 

[dogman dan]

A mid drive definitely can do more than a hub motor, given a watts limit under 1000w. So a mid drive makes great sense for a do it all bike.

But I do believe that you can do a lot, with a simple, generally more reliable hub motor. What fails on the steeper hills though, is a very low power hub motor, like 350w or less. So if you have legal restrictions to low watts, mid drive for the win.

 

[docw009]

If you're electrically inclined, you can put the throtttle, LCD, and brake wires into a single 10 wire cable and run that to the handlebars, and it will look like a gear shift cable. I do solder and I do shorten cables and dress them. If you cannot do that, well it might be a frankenstein look.

Could you elaborate on that, and if possible with specific regard to the BBS02?

With a BBS02, there is only one cable going to the handlebars. Contains throttle, display, and two brake levers. ANd controller is inside the motor. One less thing to puzzle over.

Many kits use two brake cables, one display, and a throttle for four separate cables, plus the cables are an extra two feet long. And if you have a controller, where to put it.

On the other hand, if a bike is for utility, a frankenstein look will discourage theft!




.

 

[craneplaneguy]

I regard the frank look of my ebikes as a plus! The last thing I want to do is make them look as expensive as they really are.

 

[vnlj]

I regard the frank look of my ebikes as a plus! The last thing I want to do is make them look as expensive as they really are.

I'm aware of that. But being a perky OCD-freak wire cluttee really annoys me, and a clean-looking bike (esp one that I converted to E myself) would really tickle my delicates, so to say. I'm betting that a good lock and some healthy caution will have me covered. There is an interesting development going on here in Norway on this front. Telenor (major telecommuting comp) have developed, in cooporation with an insurance comp, a really small tracking device that goes inside the bike. I don't know if its avaliable to the consumer yet, or what the price will be, but I'm planning to look into that as an extra precaution.

 

[Alan B]

Theft of ebikes is a major issue, and it is becoming far worse as time progesses. The only way to keep them safe is to take them with you, and not park them outside. Locks are a bad joke. Something to consider when planning your build. A folding machine that can be kept safer might be of major importance. Once you invest your time and money into the project leaving it outside is not really a good option anymore. There is no point in building an ebike for the thieves to take.

 

[vnlj]

Theft of ebikes is a major issue, and it is becoming far worse as time progesses. The only way to keep them safe is to take them with you, and not park them outside. Locks are a bad joke. Something to consider when planning your build. A folding machine that can be kept safer might be of major importance. Once you invest your time and money into the project leaving it outside is not really a good option anymore. There is no point in building an ebike for the thieves to take.

Certaintly. At my university we have bicycle parking houses which locks. That is a most appriciated theft-prevention. But of course, you can never be safe. I will look into insurance as well, but I doubt that I will be able to get coverage for the entire bike, inclusive electric components.

 

[vnlj]

With a BBS02, there is only one cable going to the handlebars. Contains throttle, display, and two brake levers. ANd controller is inside the motor. One less thing to puzzle over.

Many kits use two brake cables, one display, and a throttle for four separate cables, plus the cables are an extra two feet long. And if you have a controller, where to put it

Can you tell which of those solutions the following motor-kit provides? http://www.pswpower.com/peng/iview.asp?KeyID=dtpic-2014-3C-S316.027VD

I would definitively go for the one-cable solution. But in either case there will probably be the large connectors between the different components and the wire(s) going to the motor. I don't see a point having them, so I think I will remove them and solder everything up instead. That way I can trim the wiring down at the same time.

 

[Alan B]

The waterproof Higo connectors used on BBS cables are very expensive and very nice. They are there for serviceability and programming.

 

[vnlj]

Does anyone have experience ordering from Elifebike.com? On the site they say there is no taxes for both EU and US, but on some products it says that there is second-time taxes for Norway. Though that info is not on all products. I probably should just contact them directly bu thought I would check here first.

 

[vnlj]

The waterproof Higo connectors used on BBS cables are very expensive and very nice. They are there for serviceability and programming.

Okay, thanks for pointing that out. With that taken into consideration I will most likely keep them. Is there any argument against trimming away excess wiring? So as to keep them in their original state as opposed to making a cut in the middle of it and a solder connection.

 

[d8veh]

Elifebike has been going for many years. I've used them several times without problems.

It sounds like you've made up your mind, but I can tell you that a BBS02 can't hold a light to a Q128c with a 20 amp KT controller. It might be able to produce more torque than the Q128c or more speed in some circumstances, but the general ride comfort is much worse. You have to be in the right gear all the time, you have to service your gear train a lot more frequently, you get horrible clunky gear changes and they're generally less reliable. The Q128c is smooth and silent. It doesn't care what gear you're using. It has loads of torque. It would be easier to fix if something goes wrong.

I know people who are happy with their BBS02. There's nothing wrong with them and they're probably easier to install. Higo connectors are great until something goes wrong, then it's impossible to test anything. You have the choice of connectors with the KT controllers, but I'd always choose the conventional ones,

 

[dogman dan]

The best thing to do with excess wire, is tuck it under the seat if you have wire running near there. Its why I like to locate the controller just behind the seat.

Second best trick I like to use is a small handlebar bag. Its handy for carrying a lock, or other small items you need. the excess wire can go inside it, but I find it just as good to just make a neat coil behind it.

if you do cut wires, do it where the snake ate a mouse looking splice will hide. Solder, heat shrink, to reconnect the shorter wire. Bear in mind, first cut, there went your warranty.

If the look of the higos is too much for you, you need to go buy an expensive bike, with zero external wires.

 

[vnlj]

It sounds like you've made up your mind, but I can tell you that a BBS02 can't hold a light to a Q128c with a 20 amp KT controller. It might be able to produce more torque than the Q128c or more speed in some circumstances, but the general ride comfort is much worse. You have to be in the right gear all the time, you have to service your gear train a lot more frequently, you get horrible clunky gear changes and they're generally less reliable. The Q128c is smooth and silent. It doesn't care what gear you're using. It has loads of torque. It would be easier to fix if something goes wrong.

I know people who are happy with their BBS02. There's nothing wrong with them and they're probably easier to install. Higo connectors are great until something goes wrong, then it's impossible to test anything. You have the choice of connectors with the KT controllers, but I'd always choose the conventional ones,

Well if anything I'm less sure now than when I opened this thread. Thats not to say I'm no wiser, just that I've been made aware of advantages and disadvantages which I, given limited knowledge on the topic, would have no way of realizing on my own. Again, thanks for that.

Anyways, I think I'm tilting towards a middrive but not definitively. I'm also intrigued by the TSDZ2 because of it's torque sensor. But hearing some divergent experiences with it (browsing through a brilliant thread on that atm: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&start=25).

 

[d8veh]

They all work. I doubt that you'd be disappointed with either.

 

[Alan B]

The Higos are small and well done. For testing best to buy some extra components that already have Higos on them. Then you can swap components to test. Soldering wires will likely reduce the reliability of your wiring unless it is professional quality work. These wires are fairly small and multiconductor. There are lots of tricks for hiding extra cable, and there isn't all that much extra to hide.