An introduction + Finding a motor with Torque

[mpease]

Hi All;
(Long winded warning)
My name’s Mark and I live in hilly Nova Scotia, Canada. I am looking for some information on the torque from the Golden Motor Pro 901, MP2, MP3 26 inch front kits; as well as, any other motor that has a lot of torque. This will be my first build and there is no local ebike community. The closest known enthusiast is a dealer in Halifax (220 km) and then Ypedal in NB. I’ve been reading the forum for over 6 months and really appreciate the vast store of information here, but I just haven’t sorted very much of it out yet.

I want to become more active and tone up a few muscles while I still have them, and perhaps even lose some weight. That, plus I have wanted an electric vehicle of some description for some time. Late last winter I discovered the world of electric bikes (and trikes) and have been doing a lot of reading online (mostly here). I am hoping that an e-trike would help me accomplish some of what I want to do and have fin at the same time, but my situation makes things pretty difficult.

My circumstances (hinderances) are as follows (Queue the violins):
1. I have COPD, a suite of pulmonary (lung) diseases that leave me breathless with even mild exercise; even walking is difficult after a few hundred feet.
2. I am very over-weight, around 325 lb. (147Kg)
3. I have a very tight budget (bet you haven’t heard that before eh ?:^) ). But really, I am on a very small disability pension. Due to the COPD I can’t work even part-time (too many sick days). So my budget ($1000 CDN) is kind of built out of steel reinforced concrete. So, if I can put together a rideable trike for that, I can wait on the bells and whistles.
and finally; Dut dadaTAH
4. I live part way up a hill in a river valley. So every direction I might go means there's an uphill either coming or going if not both. While the hills aren't that tall they can be quite steep. In fact I would bet that a 5% grade would be considered flat by most of the town’s denizens and I’m pretty sure there are a couple of >25% hills here. I decided that I had to know what I am up against, so I bought an inclinometer ($5 on ebay) and await its arrival at this moment. So there you see a pretty long list of strictures that I will have to overcome.

- - - - - The Plan (such as it is) - - - - -

The Trike:
I’m probably going to get a Schwinn Meridian because of cost and availability. There isn’t a lot of choice here in rural Nova Scotia. The L-est BS is a hundred and thirty klicks away and very pricey. Walmart doesn’t have anything, Home Hardware’s Tri-Rider by Belize (the one ddk is using for his solar assisted trike) is $200 more for the base model. Most trikes I’ve found online are either rated well below my weight or much more expensive and the cost of shipping is a major factor here. If I get very lucky, I might find a used trike at a good price close by, , so that leaves Canadian Tire - IF the local store will order it for me. And yes I know they have aluminum forks and I will be using 2 torque arms.
The Battery:
I have pretty much settled on HK lipo as my battery of choice. Due to my location and because most anything I get will likely have to be shipped in, the Turnigy lipos are far cheaper than everything I have seen I have used lithium batteries for some time and am reasonably comfortable with them, lipo is new, but with care and attention, they will do the trick. I have purchased a supposedly genuine imax b6 with power adapter. I know it might be a copy, but I’m OK with that too. If it does the job, I’ll likely get a second one.
The Motor:
This is my current sticking point. If I haven’t seen anything more suitable by the time spring comes, I’ll likely end up getting a Golden Motor Pro 901 or Magic Pie 2. the MP3 has better torque apparently, but the higher price and internal controller (with reverse not implemented) are negatives for me. I saw that Methods had some 9C 2810 motors, but I didn’t realize that they weren’t always available and so missed out on a great deal.
Much more and I'll need a book deal, so that's all for now.

 

[mark5]

There are Cell_man's ( http://emissions-free.com/catalog/i14.html ) MXUS DD motors also, and you might be able to ask him for a slower wound motor. Below is an old post of his where he lists motor options. Don't know whether they're still available.

cell_man: Re: MXUS DD rear hub motor (from cell_man)
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=22244&start=15#p363209

 

[mpease]

Thanks Mark5, I did find the site through info found here, of course, but hadn't gotten around to more than a superficial once-over. Maybe I should send an enquiry.

 

[recumbent]

You can always advertise for a used trike or just go through the files in "GiGi" or "Craigslist" and pay half price because many folks don't use them much.

As for your choise of motor... you migh want to get a geared motor for it's great starting torque, and hill climbing ability , considering your weight also. "Cellman" is definately your man for that. Make sure your spokes are tight (one quarter turn per spoke) that's how they tighten them at a local bike shop.

Good luck man, you'll have soo much fun plus excersize which you still need.

 

[dogman dan]

Yeah, I think you need to open a dialog with Cellman at Emissions free, or if the budget can stand it, look at the trike kit from E-BikeKit.

Ebikekits trike setup is a slow winding front motor, I belive it's a 2810. Cellman has rear motors in slow windings, but I bet he can find something for you in a front motor.

The meridian is a good trike for use at up to 15mph. But If you hit any big bumps at 20 mph with one, you will start bending the rear rims right away. At slower speeds they will last quite well. The front forks are steel btw, but you will still want at least one good torque arm.

If you must climb 25%, you are just plain screwed on your budget. But if you can find routes that are only about 10-12% grades a 2810 should be able to climb them on 12s lipo, 44v.

 

[mpease]

recumbent, I've been checking the lists and have seen nothing close enough that it wouldn't have to be shipped/trucked in at way too much for my budget. I guess I have slowly been coming to the conclusion that I either need a geared motor and/or perhaps a mid like ddk put together (with some dificulty) http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=41572 And thanks for the spoke tip, it's probably more important because of my weight too.

dogman, the 2810 does seem to be a tough cookie(I've seen TommyL's videos), I'm sorry I missed it at Methods discount price. Ebikekit doesn't have a Canadian dealer except one listed on the opposite coast who doesn't lmention it on the site. Shipping from either the US or across Canada really is prohobitive and most places can't calculate shipping until checkout. It's considerably cheaper to ship from China - another point in cell-man's favour.

I had no idea that the fork isn't aluminum. I downloaded the manual and they don't mention that at all. 15 mph is good enough for my purposes and I've heard that delta trikes get squirrelly at higher speeds as well. As for the steepest hills, I can avoid most of that, though my short driveway is at least 20%. Basement is ground level in front, first floor is ground level at the back of the house. I was thinking that if I could get by for a year with a torquey front hub, that I could add a hill-climber assist to the rear later on.

Well, that's 3 votes for cell-man out of 3, so I'd better contact him soon and get his take on this. Thanks for the input fellows.

 

[dogman dan]

Ouch, I had a bad feeling you'd have a driveway steep as a blue square ski slope.

Cellman has a Mac gearmotor in a 12 t winding that will be very slow, and have the best chance of getting up that hill without going to huge power at higher cost.

One thing that will help, a smaller rim on that front driving wheel. But then you open a can of worms to get the brakes working again if you don't run a 26" wheel.

Hate to say it, but it could end up blowing your budget, till you can afford some different custom stuff. What I mean is chain drive, super low geared so you just grind up those hils at 5 mph all day.

Not impossible with the meridan at all. It's got that chain sprocket on the rear axle already. Get a 1000w scooter motor, put a huge sprocket on it, and just drive the rear axle in low low gear. Pedals become just a footrest with no chain on the pedals.

1000w will get you up a steep hill, we just have to find a way to get it geared low enough for 20%.

 

[ddk]

Oh hi
saw my name taken in vain so I'll chime in.
The Meridian is an OK trike @ 10-12mph.
Front hub and a rear motor IS what you will have to use to climb the +20% grades. -If you want the motors to survive for long.

My first regular front--hub powered delta trike I added a 450W United MY1016 36V motor with the Currie-style gear reduction (5:1) (around $70-$100 ca) driving a 44-tooth to 52-tooth sprocket mounted on a freewheel adapter fitted on the (un-driven) wheel side on the axle. The My1016 requires a freewheel inline somewhere in the drive line.
Other people have successfully mounted the freewheel on the motor's gear -reduction output shaft.

I later mounted the freewheel adapter w/sprocket on the wheel itself, using a locally fabbed adapter plate.


The advantage of initially using a brushed motor is the cost. You don't have to use anything other than an off/on switch when the motor is geared for very low speeds.
note: Brushed controllers for 600W runs around 30-50ca.

I can't remember what sized axle the Meridian uses on the rear, but if you mount the freewheeled sprocket on the wheel via the drive pin holes, this avoids having to deal with an axle-mount solution.
If you're not so good working with metal you would be well-advised to start a working relationship with a local metal fab shop (also called a "blacksmith")

Sick Bike and Stanton-Inc sell the axle adapters, freewheel adapters and other stuff for 5/8" axles. Parts will run around $200 for the gears, freewheel, adapters and jackshaft parts.
vs:
44-tooth sprocket mounted via the rear drive pins on the wheel in my area cost $40 as charged by my local blacksmith.

SLED batteries are always an (initial) option for a trike, since it has room and weight capacity far exceeding a bicycle.
The My1016 requires a freewheel inline somewhere in the drive line.

Good luck (I lack that part)

 

[Punx0r]

With my experience of the pro 901 motor I fear it won't have enough torque for you. On 48V it'll do a genuine 30mph, so it's not particularly built for torque. If you can't pedal then it'll probably struggle on the hills. I feel the need to help mine along with pedaling on steep hills and I'm literally half your weight (and I figure a trike is heavier).

How fast do you want to go?

I'd think you either need more power ($) or perhaps a geared motor? I'm sure someone here can recommend something from experience.

Good luck with your project You might be pleasantly surprised how an ebike might help your health - in many ways it's better than a regular bicycle for exercise.

 

[hjns]

first take a look here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=43765
Shipping within Canada should be less expensive, allowing you to buy a better motor or two.

If you aim to get the total weight of bike + motors+ batteries up a 20% hill at any speed without pedalling significantly using hubmotors, you need to look at a configuration that will give you at least 3 kW power. And it will need special cooling / venting, because otherwise the thermal limits of the motors will be reached within a couple of minutes. Gearing is the better solution.

For hubmotors, I would go for two motors, one in the front, one on either of the rear wheels. However, it will be a real challenge to get a hubmotor in one of the rear wheels, so that would be another incentive to go middrive.

 

[mpease]

Whoo, so many answers.

dogman, the driveway isn't a real problem as I will likely keep the trike in the basement when not in use. If I can't find anything within my budget, I'll just have to wait it out and get something later on when I've saved some more. I guess I can wait if it's really necessary, but it's so hard to do when I've been lurking around here for so long already. I'll see what cell-man has to say, and who knows I may be able to scratch a few more dollars together over the winter. The scooter thing is tempting, but I would be more obviously illegal then. I'm not that paranoid, but I'd like to make it harder to spot since to be legal here NS Law says a bicycle must be pedalable at all times. I actually went so far as to get plans for a 4 wheeled dual motored rig that looks like an olde timey Voiturette from http://buggies.builtforfun.co.uk/ , but that got expensive real fast because of my limitations.

ddk, I have had many entertaining hours reading your build exploits for MT1 and MT2 and I hope to learn something from them, but that still won't give any control over the actions of uncaring suppliers and careless SUV drivers. My condolences BTW for the loss of MT1, may its pieces be useful. I am going to have to start out without the benefit of the hill climber initially, but I am hoping that the initial experience will motivate me to find the scratch. In the meantime I will research how to best adapt the Meridian (assuming that's what I end up with) for use with a rear brushed motor (Have you had experience with TNC scooters?). I have time before I start. As to batteries, with the core charge and 15% tax, SLA actually cost about the same per Ah as Hobby King Lipo (if I don't get nailed for tax by customs). I've gotten a fair number of Li-ion batteries from China without being hit, and have already gotten an RC charger, so it's worth the risk of the extra fees.

Punx0r, Yeah, I'm getting the impression that geared is the way to go. Speed is not very important {yet}, 10 -15 mph (16 to 24 kph sounds faster) is good, It's getting up at least some of the hills around here that's my concern. On my budget, everything is a compromise. My goal is to get something on the road that won't burn up on day one. And I am really hoping that the e-trike will get me out often and for long periods, just for the joy of it.

Henk, Thanks for the tip. I'll see what happens, the eZee geared motor looks like a good bet. I have seen a few of your posts (on TommyL's build topic, mostly). You have mountains where I have hills and a long commute where I am just going to be pootling around the local area. For me the bike, motor and batteries weigh nothing compared to the rider. 3Kw would be dandy but frankly I just don't think I can wait long enough to save the extra cash needed to do the thing properly

Thank you all for the well wishes and valuable information. Knowledge is the key to success and that's why I ordered the inclinometer. I'll mount it in the car and look for routes that I can travel with something I can afford I am hoping that I can find routes that won't burden the machinery too much and where what effort I can expend will do the job. Off to write a couple of e-mails now.

 

[ddk]

also don't forget that there are e-trikes for about the budget you have already fitted with a rear drive.
-like this one. http://www.belizebike.com/belizebike.ca/elektrike.html, which uses a United MY1020 brushed motor last time I checked
It's regularly sold in the states for less than $1k... don't really know about CA.
The advantage to a ready-built trike is obvious. You get a working vehicle.
Adding a geared hub motor on the front wheel is simple to do later, when you have the funds.
-in fact, if you notice, Belize offers what appears to be a GM front motor as an option for two-wheel drive, for an additional $800 (ouch)

The EW-88 also sells for about 1K (in the us-a). (not sold through the Belize brand but likely sold by the same outlets that handles it)
It comes with a front hub motor, but the rear wheels are mounted in drop-outs as opposed to using a solid rear axle and hollow hubs, making it a simple affair to add an additional hub motor to the non pedal-powered rear wheel.
The Belize eTrike LT 3-speed, a tilting tricycle, is also around 1K and has rear wheels mounted in drop-outs.

Although i make fun of Belize bicycles, you essentially get what you pay for.

edit-
derp forgets to say thanks for the thoughts
Most of the usable parts from mt1 are already accounted for -lol
I've bought items from both TNC and electricscooter parts. The prices are different yet about the same, with the difference made up for with "shipping and handling" fees (TNCscooter's S&H is significantly higher than electricscooterparts S&H)

 

[dogman dan]

Good point. I don't know about avaliability, but didn't there used to be a zip model that was a trike at walmart at one time? I seem to recall a brushed scooter motor rear drive setup.

Find that still for sale, or it's equivilant. Buy it to start. See how it does, and consider modifying the gears lower if easy to do. Adding a front motor easy later, when funds become avaliable.

It's just fitting all that you need into the limited budget. If you can learn to make stuff, anything is possible on a budget though. Look at Amberwolf and Number one bikelover.

 

[dogman dan]

Here's a USA source for the zip trike. You might ask if they will ship to your address. Overbudget of course, but it's a start. With a slow front gearmotor added, you'd have some power, but at a much higher budget than a thou.

http://www.izipusa.com/61-izip-tricruiser-red-low-step-unisex.html

 

[Samd]

Back to the original question (or one of them)
Torque curves for the prokit and MP motors at nominal voltages are listed on the "Hub Motors' tab of Golden Motor's homepage.
http://www.goldenmotor.com/

 

[neptronix]

The magic pie is the torquiest hub motor you're going to find until you hit crystalyte/greyborg territory. The smaller the wheel you put it in, the better!

Don't bother with the prokit ones. The DD is basically a 9C/MXUS type motor, and the geared motor is quite wimpy.

 

[mpease]

Well... life intrudes.

ddk I am really jealous. Belize is a Canadian company, but they charge us almost 50% more. The Justwin is $2995 - 3195 here, shipping is about the same as yours $200 then we add 15% sales tax to both ($479) for a total of $3674. I've been all over the Belize site and, since there are no dealers who will admit it here in the east, I have to buy direct, which is more expensive, apparently. So the Tri-Rider “Elek-trike” is $1499+$200+$255=$1954, almost double my budget. The Belize eTrike LT is $58 less

The EW-88 Electric Trike lists at High 5 Scooters for $1199. They list a number of mobility scooters as "ships to Canada" at about $450 fully assembled, but nothing for the EW-88. I was quite interested in this one, and I suppose I should inquire. Google found very few dealers, one of which, www dot electricwheelstore dot com has videos on YouTube, but the site, when I went, was blocked by google as an attack site. my curiosity flags. Amazon.com is not available to Canada and Amazon.ca had nothing, but there was a sponsored link that took me back to High 5.

dogman Walmart in Canada, and rural Nova Scotia in particular, is not the one you know for either price or selection, not even the on-line store here carry electrics or trikes, so they’re out of it. The iZip (thanks for the link) looks great, but down toward the bottom of the listing it says do not exceed 240 lbs. In short, if I met the criteria to ride it, I probably wouldn’t need the second motor.

One thing I’ll admit to is that I haven’t put much effort into the local area. I know there isn’t a local bike shop so no venue for used bikes, and have seldom seen bicycles that aren’t bike tourist tours. That said I’ve never checked the dumps so that might be worth doing.

As I read my responses over, I see a negative tone, but I don’t want to discourage you guys from looking, because I’m sure there’s lots of stuff out there I’ve missed and one of them may be THE ONE. I’m still quite hopeful that an interim solution is available. Interim because of my budget limitations. If I can get an e-bike that will get me around (if I’m careful), I’ll eventually be able to beef it up. It may cost more in the long run than doing it all at once, but that’s how it goes.

Samd thanks for the tip. Doh!! I’ve been to GM Canada a number of times seeking info, but not once did I think to go to the main site. Any way I’ve got the documents, now I just have to understand them.

 

[mpease]

neptronix, thanks for chiming in. I had my suspicions, but the price is a little stiff for me - not that it's overly expensive, just hard for me to come up with and still afford batteries. All in all, it looks like I may have to wait longer if cell-man doesn't have a solution in my price range. Am waiting to hear back.

 

[Samd]

Sidetrack - what'd have more torque spurt potential - a rear cromotor or twin pies?

I feel like I am asking who'd win a fight out of a tiger and a shark...

 

[Sancho's Horse]

You should look at the thread by Jeff Peterson.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=15456&hilit=Jeff+peterson&start=15

He did a currie reduction drive motor. It is brushed, and louder, but...he got the motor, controller, and freewheel for $200. He ended up getting two setups so he could haul several passengers with less strain on the motor. He went through some gears, ended up with a nuvinci (maybe out of your price range, but if you look for the developers kit it may be worth it). In your situation, this might be ideal. Look at how he did his fabrication. If it looks like something you could do, just copy it as best you can. It looks like his set-up was built around reducing the potential for problems (proximity/ alignement of moving parts, etc.). The only caveat, is that if you go through gears you have to do it right, be aware of chain stretch in design etc. because you don't want a breakdown. However, a loose chain is a better breakdown than a burnt motor. Cheap rides unite!

I think he even gives his part sources, but if you decide to go this way, and you can't find it say something, because I pretty sure I know the sources.

 

[mpease]

Samd, Please be kind and don't highjack my first thread. (the Cromotor Hubzilla might handle more wattage but I think, given equal non-destructive input, my vote goes to the pair of MP3's - not that I really know anything)

Dapple? Well Sancho's Horse anyway, Thanks for the link to that build. Than kind if info is good for my puny mind to dwell upon. I have nothing against brushed motors and the noise isn't, I think, going to be a problem. Around here they won't hear me over the four wheelers. For all that I won't hear me over the four wheelers either.

 

[dogman dan]

Well, if 240 is going to stop you, forget the meridian.

I suspect you'd have the same problems with the rear rims bending on the zip as you'd have with the meridian. Wallmart here no longer carries the zip either. Ship to store free at walmart would be great for you, but if they don't have it that's that.

You'd think the meridian would be able to carry more weight but they start having problems if you do. I have two in use at work, where I do condo maintenance. We just pedal em at 5 mph, with the basket carrying 50 pounds, and no more than 200 pound riders. We break spokes, bend rims, even bent an axle on one of em after about 3 years use.

You'll be spending $$ for sure, for a trike that's really rated for big weights. Worksman, or equivilant. In europe, there are some awesome cargo carry bikes that can do incredible weights. but not cheap like a meridian or zip trike.

 

[dogman dan]

If you end up buying the meridian, or any trike with no motor, the best motor choice for you will be the trike kit at E-BikeKit. I'm pretty sure this is the 2810 motor. There is a dealer in europe that sells the 2810 as well.

Or, talk to cellman at emissions free. He might be able to get you a nice deal on a 2810, or the mac 12t in front hub.



http://www.e-bikekit.com/ebike-kits/electric-trike

As said above, small wheel for the win. Look for a trike with small wheels. SERIOUSLY! The 26' meridan will not climb as well as a trike with a 20" front wheel.

 

[Punx0r]

What's your ability level when it comes to DIY?

Hubmotors are obviously much more straight-forward to install, especially if bought as a kit.

Building anything chain-driven is considerably more challenging and would probably require custom fabrication work. It would suck to buy parts, get halfway through and then give up because it's too hard or unreliable.

Maybe spend some time scouring ebay, freeads, freecycle, etc for a suitable second-hand trike? Something suitable has to come up locally sooner or later.

 

[docnjoj]

As far as pure weight capacity the Sun USX can handle 400 pounds. It is not cheap but I have seen 2nd hand ones for about 800 USD. At least something to consider. A seriously comfortable trike.
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