Appel Electric Cruiser

[APL]

First post on the ES, but certainly no stranger here. I want to thank all of you for your experience, expertise, and help in getting me through these builds, I couldn't have done it without you! Thanks! You Rock!
The knowledge enclosed within these pages is is simply phenomenal!!

I decided to go in a little different direction on this bike, tentatively a leisure bike, technically a comfort cruiser, and a bit of a lazy boy bike. I have not seen any mid drives with the motor mounted in quite this fashion, so I decided to experiment with the idea. It allows for a fairly quick motor change with a good solid mount, and a direct drive to the rear wheel, with a low, centralized weight.



I've been test riding it for almost two years now, and the only problem I've had is not wanting to get off when the ride is over! I'm thinking that it's going to take something like this to lure people away from their cars. We would need a bike at least as fun as driving a car, if not more so.
This is a 'boots and bluejeans' bike, just sit down, pull the throttle, and go. Theres no need to pedal,.. but the option is always there.

I'm wanted something a little more user friendly, that anybody can understand and work on, and can be repaired at home, using conventional bike parts, that won't be obsolete in a few years.

It's still experimental, but I was hoping perhaps others might take this design a step further, and improve upon it. I'd be happy to post the plans, dimensions, or show the build.

I tried to design it with the best handling, low center of gravity, and creature comfort in mind. It uses a motorcycle solo seat with an air shock that works surprisingly well, the choices in seats are endless, and the suspension shock can be dialed in to suit the rider. The 56cm headset hight sets the bars up high enough to take the pressure off the hands. Something that people with wrist problems, (like me), can appreciate.
And being able to put your feet down at a stop light is reeeal nice,.. and a safe way to stop.

View attachment 3

It only uses some of the gears in back, as the big Crystalyte motor has plenty of power. It doesn't seem to care what gear it's in, the take off is all the same, except in the highest gears. I usually leave it somewhere in the middle, where at full throttle, it cruises at a street legal 20mph. Theres no need to shift,.. it goes straight up to 20mph in a single twist of the throttle.

With a 17T drive cog, it has no problems going up any hill, and draws about 250 watts on the larger ones at about 18 mph. On the flat, it draws about 100 - 150 watts at 20 mph. With the current battery set up, it will go close to 25 miles, at around 20 mph, and thats with all the country hills and wind. It has 'no hands' riding stability, and acts like it's stuck to the ground with a magnet. It is an amazingly stable ride with a 68 degree head tube and a 52" wheelbase. The BB hight is about 9".

I solved the drive cog problem on the mid drive motor's freewheel side by using a rear hub disc adapter and running the six bolts down into the motor face. By using two adapters, I was able to screw in a BB cup, and instal a freewheel onto that for the crank drive. The cranks are 115mm for toe clearance, and a lower BB. No problems with any of that yet, but then I hardly ever use the cranks anyway. Like I said,.. it's a leisure bike.




Obviously the batteries don't supply enough power to feed this big of motor, mostly it shows that the biggest motors can be used in this design. The next version, V3, will have a more reasonable size motor in it. And perhaps a Shimano internal gear rear hub. The Zee short cage-clutch der is needed to keep the motor from pulling the chain over the cluster cogs. LOTS of torque.

I've chosen drill packs to power these bikes because they have a three year warranty from a five star company, can be replaced overnight from a local store, and can be charged in one hour. Plus, the cassette design is safer, because even if one pack should fail, the others will keep the bike going safely until you get a replacement. Drill packs are probably the safest batteries on the planet, and at the leading edge of battery technology.
Eventually, I'd like to use some solar panels on the shop roof, have them charge a 12v battery connected to an inverter,.. that powers the chargers. Then the whole thing will run off of free, clean solar energy.



Having said that, the design will adapt to most any battery set up as well. I just don't like the idea of waiting overnight for batteries to charge, or being able to ride only once a day. But there are advantages and disadvantages either way.

For this one I'm using six 5ah 20v units, three sets of two, with a switch on each set, for 40v at 15ah. 40v may seem small for an E bike, but this is a mid drive, and gearing makes all the difference. The motor is geared down roughly three to one with the 17T drive cog, giving it three times the torque of a rear hub motor. This thing has power to spare. And since it goes 30 mph, it really doesn't need any more than 40v.
The lower the voltage, the more aH you get from a battery pack.

I use a small digital volt meter for a gas gauge. At 41v (full charge), it's full, and at 30v it's empty, 35v is the turn around point.

For the next version, I'll be using four of the new 9ah battery packs, if I can figure out how to put them in there without hitting anything. They have a greater watt output for more torque and will increase it to18ah. I'd like to use six, for 27ah, but the look may be a bit much. It doesn't need any more power, but they say power corrupts,.. and I think I've been corrupted!

 

[footloose]

That is a beautiful bike!
Please tell us more about the frame design and construction.

 

[fechter]

Nice work. It looks great. I like the seat suspension.\

What's the can thing just above the motor?

 

[APL]

Thanks! I started with a full size drawing, and since it was winter and I had nothing better to do, I colorized it. As you can see the
final product doesn't always turn out the way you planed.

The frame is made from aircraft chromoly, .058 1.5" for the DT and ST, and .049 3/4" for everything else. The HT is a massive
.089 1.5" (?).. I'd have to check, but it doesn't need to be reamed for a 1 1/8" headset, as it is perfect right from the factory.

The tubbing is a bit on the heavy side, but it's better to be safe than sorry on experimental's. I brass brazed it lugless, because
thats my skill, having built bike frames in the past. But I would suggest Tig welding for others. I just don't have one.

I have a small shop in the garage, and a good solid steel table to work off of. Most of the fixtures were angle iron and C clamps,
so it's something that can be done at home. I've seen some amazing talent here on the ES!!

I'll have to do a dimensional drawing for the frame if I can find the time,.. and if I can find enough photos, I could do a short build sequence.

The can thing on the seat tube is a tool kit with tire patch's. Theres a small pump on the chain stay, I'd hate to push this thing
home at 60lbs! Dang!

 

[spinningmagnets]

Well done, sir!

 

[APL]

Thank you Spinningmagnets! Coming from you and the others I'm getting an extreme compliment! I've followed your post's here
on the ES many, many, times.

I suppose I should give a brief history of how this bike came about, as it's interesting, and theres lots of glossy photos.

It started out as a little yard hopper, to go between my shop and the pole barn, where I work on the VW Bug. Seem's like the tool
I need is always in the other building. And I was thinking of something I could maybe use at a flea market, to mix in with foot traffic.
I'm getting old, and fossilized by the minute.

View attachment 4



But while I was working on that, I started thinking of a larger version, one that I could ride on the road in front of my house.
Thats where V1 came into existence, and where I discovered the Endless Sphere. At the time I had some of the old A123 fed
Dewalts, and had intended to power it with about eight of those. I bought a basket case motor on E bay,.. bent axle, cut wires, etc.
and worked it over until it ran. I had no Idea if the bike was going to work at all.



View attachment 1

As luck would have it, fall was at the doorstep, and the last warm days were fading fast. I couldn't get those old Dewalts to
charge at all! Kept popping battery tops. Super frustrated,I sent off for some lead acid 12v units and tossed them in the hold!

Put on my coat, went out and gave the throttle a twist, and wala! Off she went with head snapping power! Had to pinch myself.

Even a blind dog gets a bone once in a while.



But, that was before I knew about the state and federal laws on E bikes,.. alas, she was doomed from the start.

 

[Chalo]

The frame is made from aircraft chromoly, .058 1.5" for the DT and ST, and .049 3/4" for everything else. The HT is a massive
.089 1.5" (?).. I'd have to check, but it doesn't need to be reamed for a 1 1/8" headset, as it is perfect right from the factory.

The head tube would be .083" tubing, which is what we use for pedicabs. As for the rest of it, that's crazy stout. 1.75 x .049" seamless CrMo tubing has proved to be plenty for pedicabs-- even the latest generation of 6 passenger trikes. I used 1.375 x .049" tubing for the front triangle of my cargo bike, and I know it's heavier than necessary (but it's what I had around).

I guess there's no regret in building your bike so it feels solid as a rock and so it lasts forever.

Oh, as to your first bike there-- in Texas, that's a "motor-assisted scooter". Same rights of access as a neighborhood electric vehicle, but no registration/license/insurance required.

 

[APL]

Thanks Chalo, for filling in those details. It's good to hear your opinions on tube thickness. You have a lot of experience.
I was going to go with a lighter set of tubes for the next build. Probably .035 for the 3/4" and ST, and .049 for the DT.
A minuscule weight savings for a 60 lb bike, but we have to keep trying. I wish I had picked up some aluminum skills along
the way, or dare I say the titanium word? Whoops, to late!

60 lbs is a real design flaw, as many folks don't have a garage, and need to carry their ride up a set of steps, or stairs.
I would think 40lbs would be a more reasonable weight. Gee, all I have to do is drop 20 lbs!

I have a vision for an ultra light version, that uses 650 or 700c wheels, 25mm tires, with an extra light 350 - 500 watt motor,
that might break the 40 lb mark. Maybe just two 9 ah batteries, and cary some spares if needed. That version could be made
out of standard bicycle tubing, with a 29er carbon fork.

Regarding the laws on E bikes, I've noticed that the E movement is sort of overtaking the current state and federal regs.
It's a tough job, and it takes time. I need to have patience. It would help, of course, If people would be courteous and not
abuse the path, trail, and road, too much. Hmm, it's a deep subject, and probably needs another post elsewhere.

 

[amberwolf]

I like the drive setup. Might borrow ideas from it someday.

I also use a lower seating position, originally semirecumbent on the CrazyBike2, now just regular seated position on SB Cruiser trike.


Thicker tubing might make a stronger / heavier frame, but I don't think you'd save that much weight by going thin, even aluminum/etc wouldn't make that much difference compared to the electric components and other stuff.

Mostly it's the motor, and the batteries.

I recently worked out some guesstimates of potential weight savings on the trike if I were to rebuild with better steel/etc., and it wouldn't make a significant difference vs the motors and battery, much less my weight plus cargo or dogs/etc.

If you used a very small geared hubmotor in place of the DD hubmotor, it could save several pounds, and depending on how you set it up it might be capable of the similar power levels.

Crossbreak has a thread about converting a geared hub so it spins the axle instead of the shell.

There is also a thread for the Hubmotor Mid Drive Media Group, with pics and links to various methods of using hubs as middrives.

 

[APL]

For sure amberwolf, it could use some evolution. I would hope some the drive parts get used by many others as well. I looked
around on the Sphere for ways that people were using to lock a drive cog on a right side mid drive. But I wasn't able to find too
much, perhaps I didn't ask right, or in the right category. I probably got tired, theres so much to look through here!

I found some lockrings being used, and threadlock, but I couldn't see that holding up to a big motor. Anyways, it hit me one
night while on a sleepless E bay bike parts fixation tour. I saw the disc adapter, and a light came on!

The motor is 16 lbs, and the batteries and holder are another 12 lbs if I remember right. So 28 lbs. Yep, theres some weight there!

Thing about hub motors, is they tend to have a really thick outer ring, to take up the stress of the spokes in the wheel, which are
always trying to pull it out of round. The motor on this one is 1/4" to 1/2" of solid steel. Plus the axles have to be small, to fit
into a dropout.

I wish there were a mid drive specific style hub motor, with a large axle and flats. Throw some replaceable coils in there as well.

But your right of course, a small all aluminum geared motor is what is needed. Since it only draws 350 watts most of the time.
That test is coming up. I even have the motor somewhere. I have also thought about a composite battery holder.

I've seen the Crossbreak thread, But I like the elegance of a spinning shell, It reminds me of something... can't put my finger on it.

A windmill? Hmm.. Maybe the flywheel on an old tractor..

Thanks for the HMDMG heads up, I'll check that out.

 

[amberwolf]

I looked
around on the Sphere for ways that people were using to lock a drive cog on a right side mid drive. But I wasn't able to find too
much, perhaps I didn't ask right, or in the right category. I probably got tired, theres so much to look through here!

In some cases, it's used differently, and may not need to be locked on. IIRC, on one trike, Rassy drives the motor *backward*, so the freewheel won't unthread, and drives the chain *under* the sprocket, rather than around/over it. There's only one chain, from the pedals to the rear wheel, and the motor sits between them. I forget exactly how it works, but it's on Rassy's trike thread. Is probalby also in the hub motor mid drive media group thread somewhere.

I found some lockrings being used, and threadlock, but I couldn't see that holding up to a big motor.

There's also keyways filed or ground into the threaded area of both freewheel and hub, and keys fitted into this.

I wish there were a mid drive specific style hub motor, with a large axle and flats.

Stokemonkey. It has those spoke flanges machined off (or rather, not there in the first place). Though it probably still has the "standard" ebike type axle. IIRC at least originally it was one of the Crystalyte 4xx series.

Justin_LE is working on some ideas for a new torque-arm standard that will allow a regular round axle to be used like on normal bike wheels, but the shoulders of the axle inboard of the dropouts would be splined in some fashion, to engage an arm that can be bolted to the bike frame. (pretty much like various IGHs and drum brake hubs)

But your right of course, a small all aluminum geared motor is what is needed. Since it only draws 350 watts most of the time.
That test is coming up. I even have the motor somewhere.

Some of those motors have been driven successfully with three or four times the rated power. But only for short bursts, becuase they overheat too easily (see end of post for why). Also, applying that power as a sudden load instead of easing it on tends to break clutches and strip gears.

I've seen the Crossbreak thread, But I like the elegance of a spinning shell, It reminds me of something... can't put my finger on it.

A windmill? Hmm.. Maybe the flywheel on an old tractor..

I like spinning things, too--if I could manage it I'd probably build a bike with a frame full of spinning cogs and whatnot, driven by the pedals and/or motor. And backit with various lights. But I'll never get around to that--my time working on bikes gets used mostly just fixing things and making "necessary" changes to things, or building new versions to replace old ones where simple upgrades aren't possible anymore.


The main thing about Crossbreak's method is that it allows for a much stronger mounting method (you're not just holding the tiny axle flats), which also can allow for better cooling, since you could vent the shell and put a squirrelcage fan on it to suck air out; tougher to do when it's moving. Also just having the casing mounted to the bike means the bike will conduct some heat away.

Geared hubs have a disadvantage to shedding heat, in that there are at least two layers of stuff for it to go thru--first it has to do the same thing a DD does, which is to get the heat out of the stator across the insulating air gap, and into the shell / magnets/ rotor. Then the geared has to get the heat out of those, and thru another air gap, and into the motor housing itself.

Anything you can do to help with that will help it handle more power for longer.

 

[armandd]

Wow! That's an amazing build. One of the nicest and neatest (is that even a word?) I have seen in ES. Your fabrication and illustration skills are outstanding.

 

[spinningmagnets]

APL, would you mind if I wrote an article about this ebike?

 

[APL]

spinningmagnets, that would be awesome, and I'm excited to hear of your interest!

 

[spinningmagnets]

Thanks, please email me at spinningmagnets@gmail.com, and we can talk more about the details that readers would be interested in...

 

[APL]

Thought I'd try to keep things interesting by showing some of the build. I don't have as many photos as I thought I did, but
here goes anyway. I would like to show folks that it doesn't take a lot of fancy equipment, or a high tech shop to build a frame.

Mostly, it takes patience. Your number one best tool. Contrary to all the TV shows you see now days, where the underlying
theme is the lack of time while building things,.. don't fall for it. It's best not to even have a deadline. The joy should be in
the doing, and not so much the having. I'm sure Spock said something like that...

Maybe this will help inspire some folks into starting along 'the path'. At any rate, keep in mind, that the first one is almost
always a failure, or falls short. It usually takes three times to get it right, so don't invest a lot of money in the first one.
I've been building for close to 40 years, and whenever I try something new, this is still the case.

I'm a bit of a minimalist at hart, I like the idea of building things of value with just a file and a vice, and a few common shop
tools. Sometimes it gets a little crude, but these are one off frames, and it doesn't make sense to make a fancy fixture for
a single connection.

I also like the freedom these bikes give me, they are more like motorcycle frames, and not as sexy as road bike frames. It's
nice to be a bit rude here and there,..use a pice of angle iron, or braze on a nut, once in a while. Road bikes have to be all
righty tighty, and everything has to be perfect. That stuff will wear you out!!

Heres a photo of the fixture I have been using for some 38 years, definitely showing it's age! The story's it could tell..

View attachment 4

This is a tacking fixture, I do all the brazing in a Park stand, so as to use gravity to my advantage.

All fixtures have strong points and weak points. This type has the advantage of always trying to self level, or stay in alignment.
If anything should move, gravity will pull it down on the table. It's also versatile enough to build all kinds of things other than
bikes. I can clear of the clamps, and have a nice table as well.

The clamps on this one are electro magnets, although I never used them as such, turns out that the weight is sufficient and
a fixture needs to be able to move a little, in the right directions, because tubing will grow in length a few millimeters when
heated. If it has no place to go, it will budge, or crush the tubes. All I've ever had to do is clamp things down in certain areas.

If you were to build something like this for yourself, you could use 1/8" sheet metal, screwed to a thick pice of partical board,
and it would be flat enough. Keep in mind that there is a certain amount of cold setting (bending) along the way on any build.
The clamp stands only need to be an empty square of something that won't burn, all at the same level.

You will notice that the clamps have a pice of channel that faces sideways. This is to allow for various sizes of tubing, as it
keeps the centerline on plain as the tube size changes. Also, I have the frame centerline set at 6" up from the table, so you
can always find it by measuring 6" anywhere you want. This can be any hight you want of course, you could make it 12" if
you want.

The bottom bracket fixture is completely adjustable, and perfectly straight, as it was chucked in a lathe and turned off on the
bottom. Some fixed cups were bored out 1" to fit the shaft, but you could probably get by with a smaller size.
I love that thing!



There it is boys and girls, 4130 aircraft chromoly, the best the world has to offer. It's like a blank canvas, just think of the bikes
that could be made! Mmmmm.

View attachment 2

But today were going to make an E Cruiser. Cut a pice of the 'cannon barrel' head tube off, so you can check the fit, like a
million times, and start hogging away at the downtube. I use a hacksaw and a shop grinder to get it close to start with.
This is where that 'patience' part comes in handy.



Might take a while, but in the end, this is what you want. A pretty good fit. Doesn't have to be perfect,.. but it would help.

The one tool that you defiantly need to get, or borrow, is a machinist protractor, there are some cheap ones out here, like
this one. ($50?) The little magnifying glass lets you see less than a half degree.



But like I say, were building Cruisers here, not rockets, so you don't have to be quite that precise.

 

[APL]

I'll have to jump ahead a bit, to the DT and chainstays. The DT/BB part is the backbone of the bike, everything connects to
this, and it needs to be very strong. Anything behind this breaks, and you just drag to a stop, anything in front of this breaks,
and you take a flyer. That big long fork is going to have a lot of force on it, at 30 mph with a 60 lb bike.

View attachment 4

I draw the plans in pencil, full size. This allows me to place the tube, or part right on the drawing, and the pencil makes it easy
to change things. Inspiration will always hit you on a build, so keep a big eraser on hand! I about wore that paper out.

View attachment 3

I used a bridge right next to the BB shell to get a good hook up, this is another place that needs to stay together.

View attachment 2

This is where it starts to get exciting! That bike is crawling right ip off the table! It's Alive!!!!

Now it's time for the dropouts. I use regular old cold roll steel from the local hardware store. You want something nice
and soft. Don't use 4130 because its too hard, and the skewer won't get a grip on it, plus, that stuff is too strong to bend,
or cold set. Thats not to say you can't use it, of course you can,..just beware. Were talking rear drops here, not front.
Just make sure it's 1/4" stock, don't use that 1/8" stuff!!

Make a pattern of what you want. I have a plasma cutter to slice it out, but you can use a hacksaw just as well. Then
bolt it up and take it over to the grinder. Use a course wheel, and take it easy,.. these things have been known to blow up.
Don't think it won't happen, because it will,..ware a face shield.

Let the sparks fly, and grind as close to your marks as you can, then use a file for the rest.

View attachment 1

Drill some holes here and there, especially in the tabs that get brazed into the tubing, as it takes lots of heat to hook this
up, and you might break down the flux doing so. I'm sure you Tig guys are laughing at this, you get to just zip things up!



There they are, looking like jewelry. I didn't use a rear der at first, and had to add a hanger later, But you can just draw
one in.

To be continued....

 

[spinningmagnets]

Hows this for service?...

https://www.electricbike.com/appel-cruiser/

 

[APL]

spinningmagnets, that is just SUPER! You really have a talent, Your article was smooth as honey! Now I want to go back and redo
my posts...

Can't thank you enough for writing that, I'm walking on air these days!

 

[APL]

Moving on with the 'Old School' frame build. I know everybody uses welders and aluminum these days, but but the old ways
are still viable, and should not be lost to time. There are lots of Youtube videos on the subject as well. At any rate, I would
hope that theres something within this build that you can use.

If you want to keep a tube oriented in a certain way, a simple trick is to just use a file and scribe a line on both sides either
flat on a table, or if their bent, clamped together like this.

View attachment 4

To notch a stay, or tube, I use a simple cut off tool with a thick particle wheel. This leaves a nice rounded slot for the dropout
to fit into, 'squared' out slots are not a good idea, as they tend to crack at the corners under high heat, or cold setting. It's best
to have a somewhat loose fit for a little movement, the brass will fill everything in.



Then I mock up the set make sure everything is the right length, and fit's together. For brazing or welding, use a large diameter
tube in between the drops, and a long bolt through them to hold the dropouts in a vertical and horizontal position. And ,no,
don't use big honking C clamps like this for brazing!



Once it's brazed, It's time for cold setting the dropouts parallel with each other, usually done with Park dropout cup tools, but
these are fairly bullet proof and might need something bigger. Also the spacing can get quite wide, and the alignment tools
may not be long enough.



This is what I like about brass! It's so organic! It looks like it grew that way.

 

[APL]

Well this post is getting longer than I wanted, I didn't mean to write a book! I'll try to wrap it up.

The rear dropout centerline must be found, or the bike will dog tail down the road. I use a long piece of aluminum made to show
the centerline at the dropout adjusters. It is placed along both sides of the top tube and seat tube. A string may be used as well.



I like to use a twin tube, or Mixtie style top tubes, because they give great side to side strength and allow me to mount all kinds
of things along the length. Perfect for E bikes.



The seat swing arm is made from more common hardware parts.

View attachment 2

And then mounted in the frame.



Finished swing arm.

 

[APL]

Strange as it seems, the seat tube is put in later on this one. I had to add a wider section on top to allow the seat shock to move
around, and have some place to go on compression.



Close up of that, and a view of the dash, or switch cover. All the connections are under there, and I made it so it would come off
easily on the road, in case theres a problem in there.



The motor mount that I finally wound up with. It has a slot in it for the CroMo torque arm to move in.



And then it's time to mock up the whole thing, and make sure it all fits before it gets sanded and finished out. You can see here
that there was a previous motor mount that didn't work out so well.



Finally! Painting day. I like to paint outside whenever possible, yea, theres a few bugs, but it's my bike, and I don't care!
They always get dinged up anyways..



That about does it. Keep in mind, that if you have a good idea for a bike, but don't have a place to do this, that every city has
a fabricator, or builder around somewhere. You might try Craigslist to find a retired welder that is willing to help.

And a final note. Don't build for others. You have to prove your construction is worthy first. 'Road bike' framebuilders have to go
through many years of learning, and move up through the ranks, before they can hang a shingle out.

Road bikes are a bit different from Cruisers. They have evolved for over a hundred years into a fine art, and push materials and
strength to their limits. So much so, that if a new material is created, it it usually tried in a bike frame first. Because, there is so
much information that can be gleaned from it, as to the 'feel' and handling of a bike is so well known.


Up next: How to draw a full size E bike.

Let me know if I'm boring too to tears...

 

[amberwolf]

Let me know if I'm boring too to tears...

Definitely not.

I love to see the planning and execution of a design; I always learn something.

(Even if pretty much everything I actually do myself is by guess and by gosh, building more like an evolving art project than a functional design...even thought the latter is what it actually is).

 

[Ajsomfan]

Wonderland and Beautiful. More please

 

[Warren]

Gorgeous man!

I am completely sold on electric recumbents. But if I had to ride an upright again, it would definitely be a feet forward, flatfoot cruiser.