Aussie powered bike laws warning guys!

_Chris_ said:
OK just now I called up The guy that is doing the testing of illegal bikes...
He sais he has only had to test 2 ebikes and the 200w one wouldn't even make the roller on the motorbike tester work.
Interesting. So they're using a chassis dyno to measure 200w at the treads. I suspect you'd need a fair bit over 200w to even turn the rollers. Obviously this figure will be a far cry from what is displayed on a watt meter or CA as power coming out of the battery but I'd be very interested to know what sort of CA power figures result in around 200w on the rollers once motor inefficiency and drivetrain losses etc are taken into account. I'd also like to know what sort of motor/battery/controller combo that the bike that failed was running and what number he turned out.
There you go Chris, you have your homework for today. Report back to me in the morning :p

t3sla mentions 500-800w being seen on his pedalec so if this has passed euro testing schemes as 250w that means for 200w motors we could probably get away with seeing battery wattage readings of 400-650w...
 
Hyena said:
_Chris_ said:
t3sla mentions 500-800w being seen on his pedalec so if this has passed euro testing schemes as 250w that means for 200w motors we could probably get away with seeing battery wattage readings of 400-650w...

After testing an Europe/Australia legal e-emotion jumper which is pedalec only today, l have no doubt its pumping out that sort of Wattage when it needs to. Its was an impressive bit of kit.
 
Good work Chris

I'm going to Adelaide for a ride to cure diabetes and there a couple of guys from perth police who I know quite well so ill ask a couple of questions. Never talked shop fee on previous years and mays not but he does know that I have an electric bike.
 
Hyena said:
_Chris_ said:
OK just now I called up The guy that is doing the testing of illegal bikes...
He sais he has only had to test 2 ebikes and the 200w one wouldn't even make the roller on the motorbike tester work.
Interesting. So they're using a chassis dyno to measure 200w at the treads. I suspect you'd need a fair bit over 200w to even turn the rollers. Obviously this figure will be a far cry from what is displayed on a watt meter or CA as power coming out of the battery but I'd be very interested to know what sort of CA power figures result in around 200w on the rollers once motor inefficiency and drivetrain losses etc are taken into account. I'd also like to know what sort of motor/battery/controller combo that the bike that failed was running and what number he turned out.
There you go Chris, you have your homework for today. Report back to me in the morning :p

t3sla mentions 500-800w being seen on his pedalec so if this has passed euro testing schemes as 250w that means for 200w motors we could probably get away with seeing battery wattage readings of 400-650w...
He said the 200w motors wont budge it so they cant be verified so they dont bother unless theres something suspicious happening. Now we know and can tell others. It would be interesting what you guys hear if you do find anything on this where you live in the other cities. Thats the hunter area sorted anyway.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if this was just a local response to a problem in the area. Surely the police force in general has better things to do than recruit local motorcycle workshops to test overpowered push bikes...

I'd like to know what result that overpowered bike turned out and what his set up was.
 
A car dyno -that's priceless. I have no doubt it wouldn't move at those low power levels. *Just Priceless*.

Might as well use a sledgehammer when a scalpel is required.
 
Samd said:
A car dyno -that's priceless. I have no doubt it wouldn't move at those low power levels. *Just Priceless*.

Might as well use a sledgehammer when a scalpel is required.
No it was a motor bike one.
 
Kepler said:
Hyena said:
_Chris_ said:
t3sla mentions 500-800w being seen on his pedalec so if this has passed euro testing schemes as 250w that means for 200w motors we could probably get away with seeing battery wattage readings of 400-650w...

After testing an Europe/Australia legal e-emotion jumper which is pedalec only today, l have no doubt its pumping out that sort of Wattage when it needs to. Its was an impressive bit of kit.

Oh I've ridden one of them. The shop in St Kilda right?

The thing uses a torque sensor, schweet
 
I have just installed the Thun tq sensing BB on my trike.
Together with the CA V3. I ha e now disabled the twist throttle and use it as pedelec only.

I'm still not 100% legal power wise, but because I have to pedal to get assistance, I'm less likely
To attract unwanted attention, and I'll get fitter into the bargain.

Jason.
 
250W is a continuous amount of power (~flats), peak (~hill) is different.

You should be able to give more power if the sensing is torque based, I would like to see an amended regulation that has a torque to power ratio.

Killo Watts up a hill makes sense and is safe if properly implemented.

The issue is people have a throttle as their relative viewpoint of what Kw's feels like, it's like comparing tan(x) (out of control) to y=x >0 (proportional)

Kw's on a magnet based PAS is just a no go, I think......lol actually it would be terrifying on a H35/40/50/Cro if it just went ahh your pedalling at X rotation a minutes, give it full power :cry:
 
True it was a motorbike dyno and not a car one - but the order of magnitudes of both polar moment of inertia and initial friction to get it rolling will be impossible regardless. It's still priceless. Now it's like swapping a claw hammer for a scalpel.
 
t3sla said:
250W is a continuous amount of power (~flats), peak (~hill) is different...
Killo Watts up a hill makes sense and is safe if properly implemented.
Most definately, and I agree that 250w continuous is actually a reasonable and beneficial amount of power. Especially if it translates to what most of us measure as ~500 battery watts on the flat cruising at 25km/hr. A medium sized geared motor can cruise along quite economically at 25km/hr (the supposed max allowed speed) on the flat in keeping with the law. The problem is if they're using stupidly heavy motorcycle dynos or what ever it's going to load the bike right up, making it pull 1000w or what ever it's max current limit is as if it's going up a hill. This higher load will become the "continuous" measured power and they'll cry it's over the limit, even though on the road it is probably well within their regulations.
I'm sure when they did the ENblahblah certification they used proper dynos and testing methods and I'd sure as hell be arguing the validity of their motorcycle dyno readings if I wound up in court.

Kw's on a magnet based PAS is just a no go, I think......lol actually it would be terrifying on a H35/40/50/Cro if it just went ahh your pedalling at X rotation a minutes, give it full power :cry:
Yeah people have asked me to make powerful kits with PAS and I flatly refuse. That shit is downright dangerous and even 500w can throw you under a passing car or truck at an intersection if you move the pedals.
 
Hyena said:
people have asked me to make powerful kits with PAS and I flatly refuse. That shit is downright dangerous and even 500w can throw you under a passing car or truck at an intersection if you move the pedals.


not now that the new CA V3 has the thun input.... it wont make the motor move unless a full rotation of the cranks is performed first.
it wont take of just by leaning on the cranks for example or rocking them back and forwards.

now that i have the thun installed and configured on the trike, i love the PAS function of the CA.
i set the dial for assist level, and basically forget that im riding an assisted bicycle.

you should at least check it out.......

my 0.02c.... YMMV.

Jason
 
Diamondback said:
not now that the new CA V3 has the thun input.... it wont make the motor move unless a full rotation of the cranks is performed first.
Is this the same V3 that has reports of randomly going WOT ? :p
Nah the V3 will open up a range of great features and ride refinement. I'm definitely looking forward to playing with it more, just gotta find the time :(
 
the B21 FW seems fairly stable (to me at least) have only ridden about 60km with the CA and thun installed so far, but no issues to report.


i have the FW flash cable so ill be able to update it as required. on my fairly low powered setup (550W) im not overly concerned with a potential WOT.
with BB7's on 20" wheels, i have plenty of stopping power :)

Jason.
 
Sunder said:
heathyoung said:
Interesting someone mentioned Newcastle NSW ~ hmmmm...

The accuracy of those dynos is probably questionable at such low power - the motorcycle place I asked to get the Vectrix dyno'ed at said they couldn't measure under 1KW, the inertia of the rollers throws out the measurements.

I suspect they would use something like this:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2013-Jet-Black-Dyno-Fluid-Bicycle-Trainer-with-Dynometer-Speed-Cadence-Computer-/261089142359?pt=AU_Sport_Cycling_Accessories&hash=item3cca202657

dynotrainer1.jpg


It measures accurately between 5w and 900w. Even if you assume a generous 20% margin of error, anything over 300W is still illegal.

Since we is talking dynos again I recalled the above post from page 2 I admit I giggled a little thinking what my bike would do to this dyno teehehe dear me, almost worth being pulled over again and whacking my bike on the dyno, be a twisted mangled smoking lump of metal when I finished with it lmao! make a great YouTube video haha...


KiM
 
I'm thinking their display would need a few more zeroes KiM!
 
If they rip something like that out lawyer up, and go for 'calibration'.

20%, 40%, 100% accuracy isn't permissible in court without calibration records.

AUS speed cameras need regulation calibration, the results of which are available on-line.


3qvcsf.jpg
 
I want a lance armstrong eBike motor . Its totally overpowered and illegal but its ok because everyone else is doing it!
 
Got pulled over by the plod the other night.

Technically I was in the wrong, as I didn't see the point in stopping for a red light at a pedestrian crossing (NOT a road intersection) at 1am, when the pedestrian had long since crossed the road and there was no cars in sight except the unbeknown's to me undercover Commodore that sparked its lights as soon as I cruised though on my merry -and safe I might add - way. He was driving 5 metres behind me when he gave notice of his prescence via a skin jumping siren chirp and Christmas light show. In a quick moment of panic I cleared my CA trip data before coming to a stop.

The cop was easy-going. His puzzled face was obviously more curious as to how I was travelling at 50Kph on a heavy looking longtail cargo bike in the marked bike lane despite the fact I was pedalling hard.

He looked the bike over and asked "Is that some sort of motorbike....Harley contraption".

"It's electric" was all I felt was strategically sensible to initially divulge in reply.

He facial expression showed signs of contentment in realising now that it wasn't petrol and seeing the existance of pedals and relatively small looking motor (Cyclone/Headline planetary geared unit). He seemed completely ignorant of the legal power limit thankfully. If he pushed me on the matter I planned to claim ignorance of the power output through saying I wasn't sure as I hadn't measured it.

He gave me an unoffical warning and sent me on my way. phew!

Lessons learnt?

Need more power to get awa........ :mrgreen:

No, but seriously, as LFP suggested plans are brewed to install two strategically placed magnetic reed switches, un-noticable without surgical dissection of the bike. this will detune power to 200W and blank the CA screen through the removal of a very out-of-place looking magnet at a moments notice.
 
_Chris_ said:
I want a lance armstrong eBike motor .
Electron doping is the way to go. It's well documented you're allowed to give yourself the extra power you need if you're a cancer survivor. You guys are all screwed, I'm sitting pretty :p

boostjuice said:
"It's electric" was all I felt was strategically sensible to initially divulge in reply.
Nice escape. I would use the term "electric assist" and note that "it really makes pedalling up steep hills much easier"
As you said, in the absence of a petrol motor and with you you not riding like an arse there's little chance of getting into strife.
At 1am the guy was probably bored so was looking for something to do!
 
boostjuice said:
Got pulled over by the plod the other night.

Technically I was in the wrong, as I didn't see the point in stopping for a red light at a pedestrian crossing (NOT a road intersection) at 1am, when the pedestrian had long since crossed the road and there was no cars in sight except the unbeknown's to me undercover Commodore that sparked its lights as soon as I cruised though on my merry -and safe I might add - way. He was driving 5 metres behind me when he gave notice of his prescence via a skin jumping siren chirp and Christmas light show. In a quick moment of panic I cleared my CA trip data before coming to a stop.

The cop was easy-going. His puzzled face was obviously more curious as to how I was travelling at 50Kph on a heavy looking longtail cargo bike in the marked bike lane despite the fact I was pedalling hard.

He looked the bike over and asked "Is that some sort of motorbike....Harley contraption".

"It's electric" was all I felt was strategically sensible to initially divulge in reply.

He facial expression showed signs of contentment in realising now that it wasn't petrol and seeing the existance of pedals and relatively small looking motor (Cyclone/Headline planetary geared unit). He seemed completely ignorant of the legal power limit thankfully. If he pushed me on the matter I planned to claim ignorance of the power output through saying I wasn't sure as I hadn't measured it.

He gave me an unoffical warning and sent me on my way. phew!

Lessons learnt?

Need more power to get awa........ :mrgreen:

No, but seriously, as LFP suggested plans are brewed to install two strategically placed magnetic reed switches, un-noticable without surgical dissection of the bike. this will detune power to 200W and blank the CA screen through the removal of a very out-of-place looking magnet at a moments notice.

The problem is you did not have lycra tights I'll bet. If you had Lycra tights, he might have assumed you were on performance enhancing drugs and driven by. :)
 
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