AWD Quad build in planning: "Satanic Panic"

[BionicOnion]

Are you still able to have this considered a cycle machine when its said and done? Im curious how the police would see such a device lol

Update:

I will be taking the rear end back off, and have tabs welded to said rear end with holes drilled through the tabs to provide additional mounting points with M6 bolts and nylock washers, to be mounted via the rear brake and rear mech mounts on the KMX frame.

The seat will be shifted back another 8-10 inches. I'm aiming for a 53% front and 47% rear weight distribution because the front track is wider than the rear track.

Once all that is sorted out, I can try to figure out what mid drive will both fit and provide enough power for the application.

 

[The Toecutter]

Are you still able to have this considered a cycle machine when its said and done? Im curious how the police would see such a device lol

Depending on where I ride it, whether I restrict it to 28 mph with PAS / 750W makes a difference. The wiring, controller, and battery are going to be hidden.

 

[Papa]

53% front and 47% rear weight distribution

Anticipated maximum gross weight? (includes you of course)

 

[The Toecutter]

Anticipated maximum gross weight? (includes you of course)

300 lbs with body, roll cage, safety harness, upgraded wheels/tires, reinforced mechanicals, and including tools/camping gear.

Unladen dry weight, but still complete ready-to-ride vehicle, maybe 120 lbs. Me not in it, no tools/camping gear.

 

[Papa]

300 lbs with body, roll cage, safety harness, upgraded wheels/tires, reinforced mechanicals, and including tools/camping gear.

Unladen dry weight, but still complete ready-to-ride vehicle, maybe 120 lbs. Me not in it, no tools/camping gear.

Ballpark 160 on the rear - best add some meat (or replace) to those 15mm rear axles - especially if they've not been heat treated. Schwinn Meridian's are/were famous for losing a wheel.
Just a thought, the Sun USX delta has 20mm axles w/decent 36h aluminum disc hubs & disc mounts. I occasionally spot one on CL and eBay.

 

[The Toecutter]

I had tabs tac-welded to the differential housing, but they posed a clearance issue to the frame. I need to remove the sections marked in green, then see how it fits up. Once everything fits flush, I can drill holes to fit M6 bolts and mount the differential housing to the brake caliper mounts on the KMX frame. Once everything fits with certainty, it will be time to do the permanent welds and then repaint.

Hoping to have it going this weekend as FWD electrically, RWD pedaling, and AWD using both. With twin Phaserunners, it won't accelerate as quickly as the previous 10 kW rear hubmotor setup, but it might do 90 mph top speed without a body on it, but I don't think I'm going to be testing that anytime soon.

 

[The Toecutter]

Update. The front motors are now concealed by aero disc covers. On the outside cover, you can't tell there's a motor there. On the inside cover, you can if you look closely, but the body shell is going to cover that once installed. The differential housing has been modified to bolt up to the brake mounting holes on the KMX frame while the bottom of the housing fits flush to the frame itself, to eventually be secured with steel zip ties in an 'X' pattern. So there will be three M6 bolts securing the housing to the brake/flag mounts of the KMX frame(two on the left, one on the right), two square-shaped dropout bolts securing the housing to the dropouts of the frame, and steel zip ties on the bottom. That thing won't be moving. Aero disc covers are now on all four wheels as well. Maybe a test ride tomorrow.

 

[The Toecutter]

Got it working, but it's not yet reliable. Hoping to finish work on the rear end this week, and get it painted. Currently running it at 1500W. I'm hoping we get snow at some point before the spring but after the vehicle is usable as a daily so I can test the AWD.

 

[The Toecutter]

I was hooning around and went for a ride on the nature trail. I reached almost 55 mph. It had a lot more to go, but losing traction with the front wheels and accelerating like a car to 55 mph on a "bicycle" was enough retardation for the day. I bet I can hit 85 mph in it as is without a body. Mid drive not yet installed.

Those motors are very lossy and pedaling with the battery disconnected, it takes the same effort to pedal at 7-8 mph that the trike required to do 15 mph unmotorized. Running 12 kW peak with twin Phaserunners, but I don't think I ever drew that much, closer to 9 kW. They get hot quickly.

 

[99t4]

What are you using for a battery?

 

[The Toecutter]

Molicel P42A pack inside of a plastic housing formerly used for another battery, encased in a corrugated plastic box zip-tied and C-clipped underneath the rear of the seat. XT150 connectors to the battery, with adapters made to the 45A Andersons on the Phaserunners.

Once I make a body for it, I plan to upgrade to some 6.5AH 21700s. It would be nice to have a massive 2.8 kWh pack.

 

[99t4]

Ok, I see it now. Very stealth.

 

[The Toecutter]

Ok, I see it now. Very stealth.

It will be even more stealth with the body I'm going to make for it. Disguised as an unmotorized velomobile, and everything will be sealed. Unless it gets confiscated and torn apart, nothing will be found.

The Phaserunners are a temporary measure. I might use a 3rd Phaserunner for the middrive. I still need to find a similarly light controller that can reliably make more power, that is actually available. I really want the PowerVelocity to be real. Another possibility is one of the Nucular lineup, and ditch the CA3.

Maybe I'll do a 0-60 mph run this weekend. It feels like it would do it in around 8-9 seconds. Not as fast as it was as a trike with 10 kW to a single rear motor and a single ASI BAC4000 running 200A phase current, but these front motors are wound for more speed, I'm using lowly Phaserunners each limited to 90A, and I didn't need to run much field weakening on them to spin to 119 mph. The Phaserunners are such pussies by comparison that I can't eat my tires(well tire, as a trike) and leave thick layer(s) of rubber at will anymore. But I can still chirp the front wheels and peel out if I am turning and accelerate hard at low speed. And with two front motors, there's no torque steer.

It's ridiculous how well I can climb steep gravel hills with this, that I couldn't as a trike. At low power, the front motors equal my pedaling and I can climb any type of surface. But it's not an SUV and the ground clearance is still low, as it is intended for use primarily on good condition pavement.

Without a body, I measured ~650W to cruise 35 mph on flat ground. That is a lot better than I expected. As a single-motor trike with no body, it would have used about 800W, and as a single-motored velomobile tadpole with my previous shell design on it, about 400W at the same speed. 55 mph used about 6 kW.

I did recline the seat a lot more, enabled by the quad layout and installation of rear suspension, so the frontal area is closer to that my my Milan SL velomobile than it was as a custom designed tadpole velomobile. I had a frontal area reduction of at least 20%.

It corners very well. I bet I could exceed 1G lateral.

 

[gman1971]

It will be even more stealth with the body I'm going to make for it. Disguised as an unmotorized velomobile, and everything will be sealed. Unless it gets confiscated and torn apart, nothing will be found.

The Phaserunners are a temporary measure. I might use a 3rd Phaserunner for the middrive. I still need to find a similarly light controller that can reliably make more power, that is actually available. I really want the PowerVelocity to be real. Another possibility is one of the Nucular lineup, and ditch the CA3.

Maybe I'll do a 0-60 mph run this weekend. It feels like it would do it in around 8-9 seconds. Not as fast as it was as a trike with 10 kW to a single rear motor and a single ASI BAC4000 running 250A phase current, but these front motors are wound for more speed, I'm using lowly Phaserunners each limited to 90A, and I didn't need to run much field weakening on them to spin to 119 mph. The Phaserunners are such pussies by comparison that I can't eat my tires(well tire, as a trike) and leave thick layer(s) of rubber at will anymore. But I can still chirp the front wheels and peel out if I am turning and accelerate hard at low speed. And with two front motors, there's no torque steer.

It's ridiculous how well I can climb steep gravel hills with this, that I couldn't as a trike. At low power, the front motors equal my pedaling and I can climb any type of surface. But it's not an SUV and the ground clearance is still low, as it is intended for use primarily on good condition pavement.

Without a body, I measured ~650W to cruise 35 mph on flat ground. That is a lot better than I expected. As a single-motor trike with no body, it would have used about 800W, and as a single-motored velomobile tadpole with my previous shell design on it, about 400W at the same speed. 55 mph used about 6 kW.

I did recline the seat a lot more, enabled by the quad layout and installation of rear suspension, so the frontal area is closer to that my my Milan SL velomobile than it was as a custom designed tadpole velomobile. I had a frontal area reduction of at least 20%.

It corners very well. I bet I could exceed 1G lateral.

650W is pretty good, mine runs about ~850W @ ~30mph, but I am running a mid drive with the square taper Cyclone controller so I am sure there are "some" losses there, and the chain...

119 mph unloaded are rookie numbers, man; try 7th gear on a mid drive, unloaded, if you dare... wheel will probably disintegrate spinning at the equivalent of 400mph in RPM for a 20 inch rim... hahaha.. anyhow...

 

[The Toecutter]

650W is pretty good, mine runs about ~850W @ ~30mph, but I am running a mid drive with the square taper Cyclone controller so I am sure there are "some" losses there, and the chain...

119 mph unloaded are rookie numbers, man; try 7th gear on a mid drive, unloaded, if you dare... wheel will probably disintegrate spinning at the equivalent of 400mph in RPM for a 20 inch rim... hahaha.. anyhow...

That 650W CA3 readout seemed too low to me, but that's roughly what it said. I'm going to repeat it this weekend. It was a windy day on Monday and I was on a straight, smooth, level, paved bike trail with trees on both sides, and I only took a measurement in one direction. Extrapolating from that, I shouldn't have used as much power at 55 mph as I did, but I was still accelerating when I took that measurement, my eyes focused on the CA3. What stopped the run was deer running in front of me that I had to avoid, otherwise I'd have gone faster. I really wanted to see what it could do!

If the weather/tail wind doesn't explain the efficiency, it's possible it could be that the dual hubmotor setup is significantly more efficient and/or it's also possible that my frontal area is much lower than yours.

 

[gman1971]

Awesome!! Dude, I am glad you are on 4 wheels now... much safer... I have a little over 2k miles on mine now... best decision ever made for HPV... snow?, ice?, rough terrain?, etc... no problemo anymore... it climbs the steepest slopes with zero effort, like you've said, the trike all it did was slide the rear wheel

 

[The Toecutter]

I appreciate all of your information and experience that you have provided to me. I would otherwise not have considered doing this, and I don't regret it.

I do need wider gearing. Dreambike made a proprietary freewheel and the differential is designed to mate up to only it, and the differential was designed to disallow the use of alternative components. They don't offer a wider range freewheel. I'd love a 34-11T 7-speed. Right now, my gearing range in the back is only 200%, and it sucks.

I'm probably going to swap in a 1-speed freewheel from Dreambike, order a Rolhoff speedhub with a 526% range and 14 speeds, make a frame mount for said Rolhoff and use it as rear gearing, and eliminate the rear derailleur. Then change the front gears out to an 18/30T/44T triple so I can retain my torque sensor. That would be a gearing range of 1,286% using mostly 7-speed components, and I can select sprockets for the Rolhoff to place that gearing range at whatever range of speeds I want and could use. If I size the sprockets to set my low gear for 3 mph @ 60 rpm cadence, my pedaling could still add thrust at 90 mph @ 140 rpm cadence.

With a sufficiently aerodynamic body, even at 90 mph a moderate pedaling effort of ~150W could still be accounting for 2-3% of the vehicle's motive force.

This would mean the bike has 3 chain systems. The chain system from the front gears to the Rolhoff and chain system from the Rolhoff to the rear sprocket could both be 7-speed, while the mid-drive motor runs a sturdier go-kart chain to a single speed sprocket. My mid drive doesn't need gears, just one speed for it will do. The ability to spin my wheels to 400 mph in 7th gear is 100% useless to me, but being able to have my pedaling add thrust at any speed I could see myself operating this vehicle at while having a low enough granny gear to get up the steepest hills with the battery disconnected is desired, not merely useful. It makes for a vehicle that can go almost anywhere(at least on paved or gravel surfaces).

 

[PaPaSteve]

Of all the bikes I've built my favorite has a 63 speed transmission that uses a Nexus 7 as a jack shaft with Dura-Ace 9 speed at the rear wheel.
The combination yields a 20" low to 145" high gear range.
One of the previous builds had a Rolhoff instead of the Nexus 7.
Shimano has an 11 speed IGH with a pretty wide range at a pretty effective price point.
The output sprockets were my design fastened to the spoke flange with 3mm bolts cut on a waterjet and then final profiled with a sander.
Pretty sure there are some spare sprockets sitting in a bin here.
They would be Nexus 7 or 8, possible a Rolhoff.
Also have some new Nexus 7's should you care to start the change over with low cost supplies.

Picture of the bike shows the Nexus below the body.
Titanium ~ 30 pounds.
6 race wins

 

[PaPaSteve]

An example of a Nexus 8 on a Quad
Built a few of these with a Rolhoff.
Note : when using a IGH powered by a motor there needs to be a momentary power cutoff to allow a shift.

 

[The Toecutter]

Note : when using a IGH powered by a motor there needs to be a momentary power cutoff to allow a shift.

My plan is to run a separate chain for the middrive motor and keep its output separate from the human power output, at least until the differential has to transmit power.

There will be two sprockets on the rear end, one for the middrive motor runing as a single speed, and another for my pedal output.

That DreamBike rear end may even be a temporary solution due to its 15mm axles. I am considering an upgrade to racing kart parts.

What make/model of Quad is that in your picture?

 

[PaPaSteve]

Mountain Quad.



Originally designed by Jon Nichols, he sub-contract frame building to me when, without warning, he walked away leaving tooling and construction supplies behind.
Picking up the mantle . . . I changed a few things and made a couple dozen more.
There is one left in the shop with a motor installed between the cranks and front axle.
It hasn't been used in 7 + years.
Basically "New, Old Stock" condition.

 

[Papa]

Mountain Quad.

Nice... but too bad it has 4 wheels (visibly illegal) - I'd get nabbed in-a-heartbeat if ridden on the streets here.

 

[The Toecutter]

Mountain Quad.

View attachment 386939

Originally designed by Jon Nichols, he sub-contract frame building to me when, without warning, he walked away leaving tooling and construction supplies behind.
Picking up the mantle . . . I changed a few things and made a couple dozen more.
There is one left in the shop with a motor installed between the cranks and front axle.
It hasn't been used in 7 + years.
Basically "New, Old Stock" condition.

Is it full suspension? I can see rear shocks.

 

[PaPaSteve]

Front shock(s) are the Cannondale Headshock where the modest travel movement was contained in the fork stem.
In automotive parlance this application would be called "sliding kingpin".
Mountain Quad was marketed as offroad.
Las Vegas dealer show . . . I was invited to build a titanium bike with the Rolhoff hub to be displayed at the first American introduction of the product.
Jon Nichols was also invited to display and this is where I earned his respect to build the frames.

 

[gman1971]

How much $$$$ for that quad? It looks like a live axle rear suspension.... or an articulated rear suspension? (ie. no suspension)