Axiom: a 100kW+ motor controller

[ElectronS]

Hi

Great work ,

just a random question, what is the software you are using for designing the pcb , it looks awesome in 3D , much better than ALtium Designer 2016

cheers

 

[casainho]

Hi

Great work ,

just a random question, what is the software you are using for designing the pcb , it looks awesome in 3D , much better than ALtium Designer 2016

I am answering because I also went to verify this. It is the OpenSource free KiCAD

 

[marcos]

Hi
Great work ,
just a random question, what is the software you are using for designing the pcb , it looks awesome in 3D , much better than ALtium Designer 2016

I am answering because I also went to verify this. It is the OpenSource free KiCAD

Exactly,
http://www.kicad.org

If you wanna try, remember there is a bunch of people developing if for you to capitalize on it for free, don't complain if it doesn't work like the CAD you're used to =)

I use the unstable, also known as nightly versions. Those include new features that are under testing so they are stable for the kicad 5 release.

 

[notger]

That's amazing.
I remember some freaks trying to make high Voltage VESCS before on Vedders Forum.

There is some Gossip that adaptto might stop business, so your controller would be an amazing alternative to adapttos.
unless people also allready implemented Display support as a Dashboard for VESCS and lots of other Stuff.

How easy would it be for you to implement the possibility of charging the battery via a coil and phase wire like adaptto does it.
Cause than its a real alternative.

I'm really curious how it goes on.

PS.: does your design actually base on VESC6 or VESC4 ?

 

[marcos]

implemented Display support as a Dashboard

I've seen better than a lcd display
https://youtu.be/P_thNysQvNI
A bluetooth adapter board hanging out somewhere would get this build that realtime display.

How easy would it be for you to implement the possibility of charging the battery via a coil and phase wire like adaptto does it.
Cause than its a real alternative.

I didnt know about their charging scheme, thanks for pointing me at it. IMO this controller would go in bigger systems with big batteries that you want to charge safely.
With this in theory its possible to charge the traction pack connecting 3 phase mains directly to the phase putputs of this controller. Here that would be 50hz 380v, which generates 500v dc. Charging at 10, 50 or 100kw its just a variable in the firmware, pretty much the regen variable.
However, that would be a non-isolated charging, your traction pack would be connected to mains and its not safe. I guess its not legal either.

does your design actually base on VESC6 or VESC4 ?

Its based on VESC 6, supported by the latest vesc tool software.

 

[notger]

I didnt know about their charging scheme, thanks for pointing me at it. IMO this controller would go in bigger systems with big batteries that you want to charge safely.
With this in theory its possible to charge the traction pack connecting 3 phase mains directly to the phase putputs of this controller. Here that would be 50hz 380v, which generates 500v dc. Charging at 10, 50 or 100kw its just a variable in the firmware, pretty much the regen variable.
However, that would be a non-isolated charging, your traction pack would be connected to mains and its not safe. I guess its not legal either.

for charging an adaptto you still need any kind of DC source with lower voltage than the Battery is and a charging coil. (so i guess the controller acts like a kind of boost-converter )
but the amazing thing is you could charge it on DC-Charging Stations, any PSU, or even Truck or Car batteries.
Adaptto also offers Balanced charging with an external BMS-PCB

 

[marcos]

for charging an adaptto you still need any kind of DC source with lower voltage than the Battery is and a charging coil. (so i guess the controller acts like a kind of boost-converter )
but the amazing thing is you could charge it on DC-Charging Stations, any PSU, or even Truck or Car batteries.
Adaptto also offers Balanced charging with an external BMS-PCB

Yes, its a boost converter. Its neat for a small battery, not so much for a big one, but yes, its doable with some custom firmware. Just don't count on using a dc charging station, they will measure isolation between the battery and chasis and probably expect an actual battery instead of a switching power supply input. Also you need to comply to a charging protocol before it sends you any power.

I made a custom scalable BMS sharing the can bus vesc uses, but thats a story for another day,

 

[marcos]

This thread is about a very different VESC, did you see the first post?. Go to http://vesc-project.com/forum/1 and you might find an answer.

That being said, I had a similar blow during L detection when I flashed the firmware of a v4.12 in a v.10 board (or something like that)...

 

[marcos]

Last week I packaged the fabrication files for automated pcb assembly, I thought I should share.

Brain board
https://github.com/paltatech/VESC-controller/blob/master/fabrication_files/2017-10-20_VESC-controller-v0.2_full-fabrication-files.zip?raw=true

Adapter board
https://github.com/paltatech/VESC-controller/blob/master/adaptor%20boards/power_integrations_2SP0115T2A/fabrication_files/2017-10-20_power_integrations_interface_revB_full_fabrication_files.zip?raw=true

Disclaimer: not tested, its okay for hardcore developers, not ready for end users yet.

 

[Shaharov]

I tried pulling the design of github.  Everything seems to be ok but I did encounter 2 problems (and they may be related).  The system can't find the library "/home/marcos/paltatech/tools/paltatech.lib" and was wondering if I could get a copy to relink into the design.  Also when I add the netlist there are 339 missing footprints, which may be from the library file that's missing.

Thanks for your help in this.

 

[marcos]

Paltatech.lib is not necessary, every schematic symbol is duplicated in vesc-controller_cache.lib so you won't have missing symbols. I can get you a link to an updated paltatech.lib if you want to get rid of the message, or you can remove it from the library manager.

About missing footprints, they should be there, let me check, maybe its reláated to github submodules.

 

[marcos]

Well, I didn't use submodules in this repo... maybe its libary management issue?
Maybe you're missing paltatech.pretty (the footprint library I use).



In any case, here are our libs, but don't take them as a good reference.
http://paltatech.com/files/paltatech.lib
http://paltatech.com/files/paltatech.pretty.zip

 

[Shaharov]

Thanks... when I get back home I'll have a look. I know kicad can have issues with library management

 

[marcos]

New boards under testing!



In this revision I wanted to test the gate driver power supply, it is there so you can supply the controller with anything between 9v to 30v and the board will deliver a stable 24v for the picky, usually unregulated gate drivers. Many gate drivers need 12v or 15v, changing a single feedback resistor will get you there.

The regulator is intended to supply up to 24W, its plenty for 6 gate drivers, here is the steady state at full 24W power.


Most folks I guess will use it at less than 15W. Anyway I might change a shottky diode, most of the heat comes from D16 so a beefier or better heatsinked part will improve the temperature situation.

So far its looking good, I had a couple of wrong part# in the BOM that are now fixed in the design files.

 

[ENNOID]

Hi,

Very interesting project marcos

Let me know if you want a beta tester!

I am planning to give a try to this high power VESC controller. I will probably order the controller + adapter board through OSHpark in the coming weeks...

I am looking to modify the adapter board a bit thought... I would like to add the "gate drivers" on this adapter board. Do you think it is a good idea?

 

[marcos]

Ping me before sending the pcb to mfg, I have some uncommited changes. Very minor, only added copper to the diode that runs hot and moved reference silkscreens a bit, and bigger mounting holes. The big change is in the BOM that I didn't rebuild yet.
I can sell my first patched version of the board if you prefer. There is also a company that made this board and might have some assembled spares to sell, I can ask if you want. Anyway I know its far more rewarding to assemble this by yourself.

About the adaptor board, you can entirely avoid the adapter board if you design a gate driver with the correct pinout and sensing capabilities.

In this thread I made a reference gate driver board that directly connects to this controller.
See the second image
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=84930

Those 3 connectors on top are aligned to connect this vesc board.

 

[ENNOID]

Thanks for sharing this info,

Assembled spares from the company might be interesting if they do exist and are functionnal. Depending on the price of course, but at the end I doubt there will be any saving by ordering & soldering the board by myself. I know this project is gonna be expensive anyway :lol:

I will have to assemble a modified adapter board to fit on my existing IGBT modules anyway :wink:

 

[marcos]

Great, I'll ask and PM if they are into that.

Do you have gate drivers made for your IGBT modules or are you planning on designing your own gate drivers?
If you have to make your own gate drivers you can probably connect those boards directly to the controller if you use the correct pinout .

If you use plug&play drivers designed especifically for your modules, then yeah, you probably need an adapter board. Its a very simple board anyway.

 

[madin88]

Fantastic work. This seems to be the first VESC 6 board for really high power applications.
I am no expert in controller design so a set with all parts/board needed to assemble a complete controllers would be nice to see.

Would it be possible to combine this brain board with a power stage made of mosfets instead of IGBT? I think of 100V components good for 10kW+.

 

[marcos]

Sooner or later a ready to run kit will happen, we need more testing until its ready for users that don't want any trouble.

A couple of mosfet powerstages for <200v for this controller are in planning stage now. Keen to see more showing up

 

[ENNOID]

Do you have gate drivers made for your IGBT modules or are you planning on designing your own gate drivers?
If you have to make your own gate drivers you can probably connect those boards directly to the controller if you use the correct pinout .

I don't have gate drivers, that's why I'm planning to integrate them on a dedicated board which will replace the original adapter board, but I will try to keep the same board dimensions. Attached is the cad picture from the watercooled inverter that I assembled last year, but with your VESC board on top to replace the initial board.

Have you tested your gate driver design until now? I could give it a try maybe :wink: Perhaps, I will replace the bulky transformer with an isolated Murata's 2W 24V to -8.7V & 24 to 15V dc dc isolated power supply to make things a bit simpler https://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/murata-power-solutions-inc/MGJ2D241509SC/811-3008-5-ND/4840075, but I don't know if 2W per gate is enough for big IGBT bricks like the one we are using...does someone here knows?

 

[marcos]

Why no one likes my amazing power supply? Its half the cost and provides reinforced isolation.
Those murata are a good fit. You can calculate the gate driver power requirements from the igbt parameters, I dont know which switch are you planning to use, I used this quick math
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RqU3JVtsz6bLQ-Jg3h8EidA6YTpCaA3D6J5x7j_Y-Wc/edit?usp=sharing

Try to avoid EMI coming from the gate driver to the controller, so shield it from the switching side or at least dont place it so close. If you want, keep me in the loop, maybe we can add your adapter board to the controller repository.

 

[marcos]

Short teaser from a customer:

The controller stretching its muscles at 300 phase amps
[youtube]8U7v-7AtHAY[/youtube]

Assembled spares from the company might be interesting if they do exist and are functional.

PM sent!

 

[SplinterOz]

marcos,

that is an awesome teaser and a solid result.

 

[ENNOID]

Those murata are a good fit. You can calculate the gate driver power requirements from the igbt parameters, I dont know which switch are you planning to use, I used this quick math
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RqU3JVtsz6bLQ-Jg3h8EidA6YTpCaA3D6J5x7j_Y-Wc/edit?usp=sharing

I just don't understand those formulas but anyway while surfing on that topic, I just found this doc from Texas instrument:
http://www.ti.com/lit/ug/tidu355a/tidu355a.pdf
To me, the maths are easier to understand in this doc, but thanks for the info.

I looked thoroughly to the paltatech H-bridge design on Github, but I need something a bit different.

So today, I just started a project on Github of a Dual Gate driver that will be compatible with the VESC-controller design:
https://github.com/EnnoidMe/ENNOID-Dual-Gate-Driver

Work in progress...

I'm rather planning to create something similar to this Dual Gate driver board:

https://www.wolfspeed.com/cgd15hb62p1