BarkFiet: A Mid/Front-loader Semi-Recumbent Cargo/Dog Bike

[amberwolf]

I haven't decided if I will actually build this thing yet. But this thread will be to work out if it's feasible, and at least note the ideas in case someone else is fool enough to do it.

I've got a bunch of various retail shelving fixtures and stuff, including 1" square tubing, 3/4" square tubing with wire rack attached, etc. The welds on them are just tacks as they dont' see much load in their retail applications, so I'd need to reweld them, and triangulate, etc. But they should be strong enough for hauling cargo, if I put suspension on the bike at both ends to help mitigate some of the stresses on it from the roads around here, and I don't totally overdo it with half a ton of cargo on there or something. :lol:


Pics of the first ideas. Had to stick the rear wheel/frame to the left of the seat rather than directly behind it just to get the pics. Keep in mind the seat would actually be a little higher up (maybe a foot more) and farther back by at least a foot, otherwise my legs would take up almost all of the cargo deck. This will be a LOOOOOOOOOONG bike, probably 10 feet or so, maybe more. :lol: Shoudl be quite interesting to find a parking spot or get in/out of the house!




Front end would be just the headstock/stem/fork and some lateral triangulation, not the whole orange frame. Rear end would just be the suspension section of the Y-frame, with the seat up over the spring. Fold down or jack-down caster wheels mid-frame for stabilization when loading/unloading cargo, and to keep the frame from tipping too far in a turn and striking the ground or dumping cargo if I have to stack it tall. (nto sure about the last part yet).

Maybe stick this wire rack on the rear for holding a backpack or some small light cargo:




Above it has 20" wheels, below is with the 26" MXUS from Ohzee. I will probably not use a hubmotor, but rather a chaindrive, so it doesn't use so much power for startups. But I might put an old Fusin gearmotor in the front hub either to help it along, or to use as a backup in case the chaindrive gets toasted.




Some pics for scale, with the dogs sitting around it. Nana the short-haired St.Bernard on left, Hachi the G.Shepherd/St.Bernard on the right in the first pic.

 

[ohzee]

Holy Crap that's LONG.

Still I love it sounds like you have some nice material to use. Will the welding joint's be strong enough to hold ?

Do you really need this much of a bike ? Looks like you have some nice carrying capacity now.

Anyway im behind ya regardless love to see what you come up with GL>

 

[amberwolf]

Well, unless I pull a trailer I can't carry most larger things on CrazyBike2, even if they're light. I also can only carry around 200lbs of say, dog food, and that's pushing it, with big 30-40lb bags one in each rear pod and one across the top of those, then used to fit one in the center space in front of/below the seat until I had to add the triangulation when the frame broke; now I can't carry any bigger stuff forward of that; I'd have to split it into smaller bags and stuff it in there. (and either way can't pedal at all cuz the chain would cut thru stuff or be derailed).


Even then, with all that weight plus my weight, basically only on the rear wheel, it breaks them often.

My original plan for CB2's replacement would've basically been one with the seat a little farther forward, the rear wheel a little farther back, and stronger truss-type cargo pod rails on either side and a rack space above the wheel, able to use modular cargo pods or baskets or flat carriers depending on what I needed to haul. But this basically has the same flaw as CB2--all that weight is on the rear wheel, even if it moves my own weight much closer to centered. Thus I planned to use a very heavy motorcycle wheel for the rear, so I wouldn't break that. But that is a LOT of extra weight for no other reason than to keep from breaking it under too much weight. A better solution is to put the weight somewhere else, spread more evenly.


So a front/mid loader makes more sense, although it seems like it would not handle well, apparently they do it just fine from most everything I read; better than CB2 does, probably. I just need more cargo room than most people, because I carry larger things or more of them at a time. So that means it ahs to be longer, because wider wont' work very well and still be able to turn, if the platform is low enough to the ground to make handling good.


So I pondered, and I could either build a long rack, or I can use one already mostly made the way I want it, and simply add some support tubing to it. Probably I will do a sort of truss-style edge around the rack, triangulating between an upper rail added a few inches above the rack. Using the wire rack means less worry about sidewinds and such, I hope, and maybe making it lighter overall than if I use a plywood deck. I can always stack cardboard on it if I need a flat bottom and am picking up dog food or whatever, as there is always discarded boxes around places I shop at, and often around even residential areas if the need arose suddenly to pick up stuff that won't stay on a rack. Plus tying down to a rack is easier as there are tons of points to tie to.


The rack is about long enoguh to hold two dog food bags end to end, maybe a bit more depending on the brand, and about the same width as the widest bags tend to be. So it's rather ideal for one of my primary hauling needs.

It also happens to fit two of those white styrofoam coolers that we get fish sent in each week, which woudl be tossed so I take them home whenever no one else wants them (which is almost always nowadays). They can be kept as boxes, or broken down into sheets to insulate rooms/etc., or packing material, and so on. Since they will fit the rack, they can also be used to haul groceries that need to be kept below scorching, during daytime shopping trips.


Another bonus is that it is about the right width to bolt the brown kennel from the Kennel Flatbed Trailer to, so I could carry a dog or two around with me without having to worry about losing a trailer full of dog or flipping the bike over because of a big dog wiggling around too much and fliping the trailer (both of these have happened once each). If the dog is right in front of me, gate facing me, it's much less likely they'll be all antsy and if they are it's way easier to talk to them to calm them down without using a walkietalkie or something (whcih doesn't work nearly as well as live voice where they can see me).

Also, I can carry two normal bikes (even ebikes!) on the rack, if tied down.


Steering....taht is likely to be a really big deal on this thing, though, as it's so long it'll take a while to go around a corner. :lol:


If I have to I can cut the rack length down to 2/3 of that--any smaller and it won't fit the kennel in there. Even at that length, it would be tough to get the dog in and out; probably would have to get the dog in, load the kennel full of 100lbs of wiggling dog onto the rack, tie it down (instead of bolting it), and then at destination unload the kennel with dog in it and let the dog out. Not very practical. So it will probably have to be at minimum more than 2/3 the length it shows above, and leaving it full length should be best.

I gotta take more pictures of some of the ideas, and also draw up some stuff. But I think I have a handle on this one...I just want to do some more reading on 1000w's bike of this type before I commit to steering angles and such.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=41358

 

[texaspyro]

I''ll pay for your life insurance policy (with quadruple indemnity for horrible death and dismemberment) if you make me the beneficiary... I'll be swimmin' in k'ching in no time!

 

[amberwolf]

Haha...if I haven't killed myself on CrazyBike2, I hope I'm safer on this thing...then again, traffic around here might preclude riding it at busy times of day.

 

[kentlim26]

yes, is a super long bike. How are you going to turn right or left , will it be quick and fast ?. going on a straight road will be no problem i can see that.

ken

 

[def215]

holy crap thats a long bike!

you should add more seats and turn it into a limo instead. :lol:
but in all seriousness, that looks like itll be a good build.

 

[thegrizz]

very ambitious, I like it. i can't wait to see how you tie that front end in.

 

[amberwolf]

I'm waitng to see how 1000w's turns out before I design the front end; I want to know how his handles with and without a load, so I can modify my ideas accordingly.

Mine will essentially be just a really long version of his, with a semi-recumbent seat instead of a saddle. At least, that's the present plan.


I need to take a picture of the idea parts next to CrazyBike2 and a regular bike like the Nishik-E, so everyone can see it in better scale. It is not really as long as it seems, although it is defiitely quite long--long enough to hold a regular bicycle in the cargo bed.

 

[Harold in CR]

1000W gave measurements. That would be where I would start. The front will be a lot shorter if you get rid of the frame parts and do the single head post to the rack frame. His steering looks pretty well sorted out, also.

I think you have some potential there. If you kinda overlap the bags of food, it will take up less room, especially after you add some side rails.

Down here, they use a flat platform, that swivels at the LONG head post. Never paid a lot of attention, but, one day, I might get into Guatuzo and remember the camera. :lol:

 

[amberwolf]

I'm really just waiting on his test ride data. Once I know how his handles and how he feels about it compared to his other bikes, it'll give me an idea how I might feel aobut this one with the same front end setup.


Overlapping the bags would work if there were only a couple, but the idea will be to haul more than the trailer can, which will mean stacking them as evenly as possible and up to 4 high. (I think I'd have a problem with tipping any higher than that; have to test it out once built)

The side rails will be very low, only there really to create a truss to keep the bike from folding up. That way I can carry much wider stuff on top of the rails, perhaps even building materials like sheets of plywood/etc., whcih is something I have no current ability to do. (well, theoretically I could take another trailer and tie it underneat the back end of the stuff, and tie the front end of the stuff to a trailer actually hitched to the bike, but that would probably be even more dangerous to haul around even slowly).

Then I can add inserts to the rails that allow me to put snap-in higher rails, so that I can have looser materials in there, just large enough to not fit thru the gaps, stacked up higher and "tarped over" or something. Or even make a snap-in "kennel top" so I can carry a dog or two without the kennel/crate being bolted onto the bike at all; just adding a floorboard for them. Then the kennel top would be a complete closed top made of bar or wire, like an open cage, to keep them in even if the bike spills for any reason, or if they get excited and feel like chasing something.

 

[Harold in CR]

Unless you are a hell of a lot taller than I think you are, imagine sitting on that seat, and looking out OVER 4' high piled sacks of dog food. :lol: :lol:

You are going to look like the Chinese dudes, with shit stacked up over 8' high, with you peeking out through holes in the cargo. You happen to have a Periscope hidden away in your "resources" pile, somewhere. :lol: :lol:

 

[amberwolf]

As a matter of fact.... (but I do have video cameras and displays)

Seriously, 4 bags high is only about 2-3 feet depending on bag thickness (most are 4-8" thick when flattened out).

Other cargo, however, could be a problem to see over, and that is something I hadn't considered, but I'll have to deal with that at some point. The good thing is that since I don't have to pedal, I could make the steering yoke extendable upward, telescoping or something, so I can stand on the rear edge of the platform to see over really tall cargo. :lol:


BTW: these are the same kind of styrofoam boxes I get from work each week, from our fish shipments. We just get them two or three at a time:

 

[Harold in CR]

First photo that came to mind, after I started answering you last post. :lol: :lol: 8)

You do some amazing stuff, but, I think ya got the "big eye" on this build. 8) 8)

 

[amberwolf]

Probably. I might never even build it...but I'll probably at least start it. :lol: I do really need something like this to move stuff without breaking wheels as much.

Though maybe I would be better off buidling one of these:

At least it uses electric motors, even if they're powered by diesel generators. :lol:

"Roads. Who needs roads?"

 

[Harold in CR]

You should keep an eye out for a 16"-17" Moped rear wheel. I bought a 14" on ebay for $20.00, front wheel. It's well built and, you would never break it. It's going on the front of my build. Just a tad smaller than a 16" moto wheel and tire. :wink:

Would be perfect for front wheel of rack bike.

 

[amberwolf]

I've been looking for those for almost a year now, actually more, to use for the rear wheel (or both wheels) of the other cargo bike I intended to replace CrazyBike2 with. So far no viable ones have turned up that I could afford.

One guy on CL I contacted, went to, but he said he already sold them after I got there. Another had a whole rusted-out moped but decided not to sell it after I got there. Another kept changing his mind while I talked to him, so I didn't bother. A few of them I was too late. The few motorcycle/etc. shops I have tried are either way too expensive or couldn't help me because I wanted to just get a wheel; and didnt' have a moped model to give them becuase I didnt' ahve one to put it on. I jsut wanted to give them a size and say "how much?" but they apparently cant' work that way. I gave up after a few of those, as I couldn't handle the stress and thought I might explode at the next moron. Lots of places still to check, including junkyards adn the like, but it hasnt' been a priority for a while now after what I arleady went thru.

ATM I've got some quite large wheels on a Suzuki dirtbike, but A) they're knobbies and B) they're huge and weigh as much as any of my regular bikes and about as much as the Fusin Test Bike minus battery pack! Am still probably going to use one as the rear wheel of that other bike, if I get that far with it.

I did get three free used MC tires that would be nice, if I could get rims for them. :lol: (too small diameter for the Suzuki rims).

At some point I'll try feepay/ebay if I find one cheap enough that risking losing the money wouldn't hurt as much, but I would really rather find one locally that is going to be discarded, so I can repurpose/reuse it (I prefer to do that with all my project stuff where possible, even if a new one isn't that expensive, just on principle even if not because of cost).


For now, I'll probably just use old BMX wheels, as I have a few, including one 44 spoke 20" somewhere that was originally to be ReCycle's front wheel.

 

[John in CR]

Since it's the wheels you break all the time, don't you think that's a better place to start the change? I mean longer frame with the same wheels means more broken wheels. I hope you pull this one off. I've been wanting to do a long bike ever since I saw the long bak fiet capable of something like a dozen kids in the box.

 

[amberwolf]

SEE! There--I'm not completely crazy...that bike is longer than mine probably will be. :lol:

Ok, maybe I am completely crazy, but I have company.

Found the article about that bike:
http://www.workcycles.com/home-products/custom-special-bikes/workcycles-cargobike-extra-extra-long
Hmm....after some examination and pondering, that appears to be a joke article, with a photochopped bike/etc. It also links to this other joke product article:
http://www.workcycles.com/home-products/parts-accessories-books/high-tech-antitheft-bicycle-spray
although the link on the page is broken, the link above shoudl work.


Since it is rear wheels that get broken by the heavy loads, moving most of the load to the center of the bike should help a lot, by spreading it more evenly between the wheels, letting each one absorb some of the shocks instead of all of it being on just one.

Presently something like 80-90% of bike-cargo-rider weight is on the rear wheel once it is loaded up heavily, on CrazyBike2. Around 65-70% of bike-rider weight is normally on the rear wheel as it is, maybe a little more (can't remmeber the exact figures right now, or find the page in the CB2 thread about that).



Regarding wheels, the best I can do at the moment with what I already have is to use the 44-spoke 20" in front, and a minimal suspension fork to keep at least some of the bumps from destroying it. The rear I would like to use another 44-spoke, if I can find it I have the matching one from the same bike. The smaller the wheel and the more spokes there are up to a point, the stronger it can be, all else being equal.


Eventually adding motors to both wheels should help by reducing stresses on them during startups, especially if that power has to go thru the spokes. Probably using chain drive for both, so that I can retain the higher-spoke-count wheels.


What I'd like to do is find some moped or motorcycle wheels designed for this kind of weight, in small diameter and still fairly narrow width (rather than either the 25"+ outer diameter of the knobby Suzuki wheels/tires, or the smaller but wider (5-6"?) road slick tires (no wheels yet) I have. Wider is ok, as it gives more potential contact patch for braking and traction, but it also makes it notably heavier and it means having to build custom front forks and rear swingarm to hold them.

 

[Hillhater]

AW, you may have already explained previously, but why dont you just build a trailer ?
It would simplify the build, avoid the "long bike" issues, ( parking, corners, stability etc)...and spread the weight over more wheels,

 

[amberwolf]

I have three (working) trailers, two I built from junk and one converted from a Bell 2-kid trailer, and they do a nice job for many things. But they all have a disadvantage: You have to have them with you to use them to haul stuff.

So I could haul an empty trailer aroudn with me all the time, and deal with the issues of locking it up as well as the bike, including the wheels on it since they're quick-release on two of them. But that's difficult to have to take the bike out of the house, then the trailer, then hook them up, whenever I leave the house, and then do the opposite whenever I come back home. Usually to lock it up at destinations (especially at work) it also has to be disconnected and taken apart, laid flat against the side of the bike, then cable-locked thru the frames and wheels.

This is a lot of work to do every single ride, when at least half the time I wouldn't have any use for the trailer, as many unexpected things I run across (roadside finds or sales at stores) can easily be carried on the bike itself. Most of the other half (or less) of my rides I find things easier carried on the trailer but still can be carried on the bike, with some care in loading.

Sometimes, I run into either very large things or large amounts of smaller things (most often dog food sales at work or stores, or salvage parts roadside on curb collections/etc.), that simply won't fit on teh bike at all, and require at least one trailer trip (very very occasionally two or three).

If I had a bike capable of carrying (wihtout breaking the bike) the near-worst-case loads, say, 500lbs of stuff, I could ride that one on most of the trips I might expect to run into things like this (like my work commute and grocery store runs).



I have had some other thoughts on the physical design of the bike--I could make it extensible, so that most of the time I would be riding a shorter bike, only dealing with the extra length when carrying cargo requiring it. This would require some careful planning on how the overlapping works so that it would still be strong enough under load. I have some ideas on how this might be done, and will see if I have the right parts for it, and then draw it up if so.


Another option is a trike with expandable/extensible cargo section, but unless I can build it as a leaning trike, I would prefer a bike as i have many turns that are better taken at some speed than slowing way way down, often because of traffic behind me.


It really isn't all that often that I need this kind of cargo capacity...but when I do I usually need it right then, and usually do not have the opportunity to go home, get the trailer, then come back for whatever I wanted to haul. It usually isnt' there when I come back.

So that's why I want the capability to haul it on the bike itself.

 

[Alan B]

I would consider making a trailer that would fold up and sit over the rear wheel. So it would replace the cargo pods and be the rear rack, and perhaps carry some cargo in that configuration. Then when you needed more cargo capacity it would transform to the full trailer, and it would always be there when you needed it.

 

[amberwolf]

I have pondered such a "rack trailer" at times, but so far havent' figured out a good way to do it that doesnt' compromise too many other things. Hven't sat down to do any serious studies / plans on one either, just pondering. Perhaps I should.

It would have to have accessible cargo pods on it that hang downward from the rack over the wheel, as I have to carry things to work like lunch, uniforms, etc., and they ahve to be in a lockable fixed-on-bike box both to comply with work rules and in case I have to park it outside again, or lock it up at the store on the way home from work (as there is so much shoplifting around here that stores do not like people bringing in backpacks adn often will not let you in with one).


Although I still enjoy the whimsical idea of a looooooooongbike.

 

[Chalo]

Ever creative I see, with new ideas to make drivers give you more room on the road. Well played.

Chalo

 

[amberwolf]

I hadn't thought about that, but it might indeed do that. :lol:

I have been imagining riding this thing around on some of my typical routes, and I can imagine some serious problems with making certain turns under some conditions. :/ Especially if loaded up. Beginning to seriously question whether I should try it or not.


Well, I'm almost sure I should at least *try* it.