battery range comparison

[kriskros]

given the same bike setup e.g.mtb,26"wheels,hs3540 motor and lyen 36,40amp controller...is there a range difference between an a123 lifepo4 36v,20amp battery and a 36v,20amp lipo battery....and of course, same speed[25mph] and terrain

 

[SamTexas]

Yes, there will be a small to negligible difference in range.

A123: Nominal voltage is 3.3V. 11 cells are needed to make a 36V battery. Actual nomimal voltage is 36.3V, actual capacity is 726Wh.
RC Lipo: 3.8V, 10 cells, 38.0V, 760Wh.

So in theory the 36V RC Lipo will give you 4.7% more range.

 

[hnasc]

given the same bike setup e.g.mtb,26"wheels,hs3540 motor and lyen 36,40amp controller...is there a range difference between an a123 lifepo4 36v,20amp battery and a 36v,20amp lipo battery....and of course, same speed[25mph] and terrain

hi kriskros, what i want to say about bike battery The Suzuki make a good comparison as it has a top speed of 71.5 mph, vs. 68.1 mph for the Zero and a slightly quicker ¼ mile time of 18.37 seconds vs. 19.31 seconds for the Zero. However, the Suzuki has a slower 0-60 time of 13.62 seconds to the Zero’s 0-60 time of 11.73. The Zero makes a 22.58 hp on their dyno, while the Suzuki makes 13.29 hp, it has a 5-speed transmission and weighs slightly less, which evens the performance comparison. (That caught my eye. It would appear that having a transmission can compensate noticeably for a lower power motor.) The Suzuki weighs 276.5 pounds and the Zero weighs 296 pounds. The Suzuki got as much as 86.7 mpg in their testing and averaged 63.8 mpg in both on-road and off-road use. This gives the Suzuki a fuel cost of $0.069 per mile, compared with the Zero’s $0.03 per mile.

But then you have to compare maintenance. The Suzuki’s cost for filters, oil changes, valve adjustments, etc. would average an additional $0.062 per mile, compared with the Zero’s minimal maintenance requirements of cleaning and replacing its motor’s brushes at 8000 mile intervals and checking the bike over every 4000 miles. They estimate that this would add another $0.033 per mile to the Zero’s mileage cost.

However the big cost for owners of the Zero is the need to replace its $4000 battery, which, based upon their analysis would need to be replaced every 36,000 miles, assuming a range of 20 miles and a specified 1800 charging cycles. The price to replace the Zero’s custom-made battery choked them up quite a bit and that added another $0.111 per mile to the cost of ownership of the bike.

The grand totals come to a ownership cost (over 36,000 miles) of $0.174 per mile for the Zero DS and $0.131 per mile for the Suzuki DR200S. Note that this does not include the cost of insurance, tires, brake pads and other expenses shared by both motorcycles. Their calculations also don’t include the $10,495 price of the Zero, which is much more than the $4199 price of the Suzuki, although current Government incentives lower the final purchase price of the Zero. Naturally, the conclusion is that it is cheaper to purchase and ride the Suzuki, compared with the Zero at this stage in the technological game. But they conclude that if EV purchase prices drop, and performance and fuel prices increase, the economic cost to own IC and EV motorcycles will become more comparable, but right now the advantage is still with the gasoline-powered motorcycle.
If you have any question related to my this post so you can feel free ask to me...

 

[neptronix]

Sam, lifepo4 actually requires 12 cells, not 10, to make a proper 36v.
Do check out a few lifepo4 packs on the 'net and note the cell count. It's always 12.
A123 cells are 3.3v nominal i think? so in reality you have a 39.3v nominal pack. Or 38.4 if it's 3.2v nominal, i forget.

likewise, 10S RC lipo produces 38.5v nominal.

If there is any range difference between the two, it's not a heck of a lot. The difference will be a mile or two between em.
The a123 may win though, if it comes with a BMS, as you'd be able to squeeze that extra 1-5% out of the battery SOC that you'd be foolish to even touch with RC lipo.

 

[dogman dan]

I agree, any range difference would be more due to any actual difference in voltage due to cell count. Another source of difference could be what the actual real world wh is, which could vary depending on bms settings, actuall end of charge voltage, etc.

But pretty much, both are lithium, both have at least a decent c rate, and both would likely produce pretty similar wh. You wouldn't see a large difference due to peukerts effect, like comparing sla's to lipo.

 

[kriskros]

Yes, there will be a small to negligible difference in range.

A123: Nominal voltage is 3.3V. 11 cells are needed to make a 36V battery. Actual nomimal voltage is 36.3V, actual capacity is 726Wh.
RC Lipo: 3.8V, 10 cells, 38.0V, 760Wh.

So in theory the 36V RC Lipo will give you 4.7% more range.

my pack is 108 cells built by cell man..nominal voltage 39.8.... therefore,having a tadpole trike, the a123 battery ius better for me,especially considering the great difference in life... on a trike size and weight are not a problem... thanks all

 

[SamTexas]

You are not welcome. Why did you ask in the first place?

Your question was SPECIFICALLY about:
1) 36V battery, either A123 or Lipo: There's no such thing as a 36V battery for those. The closest is 11 cells for A123 (36.3V) and 10 cells for Lipo (38.0V). Now you came back and say a 12 cell A123 battery is better. Of course it's better because it's NOT a 36V battery. You could have bought a 20 cell (66.0V) A123 battery and call it 36V if you want too.
2) which gives you a better range. No where did you mention life expectancy in your question, but now it's one of your deciding factor.

I don't give a hoot about which battery you end up with, I was just trying to answer your damn question.

 

[neptronix]

Someone's had a bad day!!!

And for the record, lithium battery configurations are always a bit overrated. 36v is approximately what you get when the sag kicks in and you drop a couple volts.

That's how most manufacturers like to rate their packs.

 

[kriskros]

You are not welcome. Why did you ask in the first place?

Your question was SPECIFICALLY about:
1) 36V battery, either A123 or Lipo: There's no such thing as a 36V battery for those. The closest is 11 cells for A123 (36.3V) and 10 cells for Lipo (38.0V). Now you came back and say a 12 cell A123 battery is better. Of course it's better because it's NOT a 36V battery. You could have bought a 20 cell (66.0V) A123 battery and call it 36V if you want too.
2) which gives you a better range. No where did you mention life expectancy in your question, but now it's one of your deciding factor.

I don't give a hoot about which battery you end up with, I was just trying to answer your damn question.

ive never seen a supplier list a 36v,battery as 39.3or anything else other than 36volt.. since i am considering another build, i really was curious toknow if there is range difference between lipo and lifepo4 batteries of the same voltage and amperage..life expectancy i am aware of... sorry if i disturbed your equanimity

 

[liveforphysics]

given the same bike setup e.g.mtb,26"wheels,hs3540 motor and lyen 36,40amp controller...is there a range difference between an a123 lifepo4 36v,20amp battery and a 36v,20amp lipo battery....and of course, same speed[25mph] and terrain

hi kriskros, what i want to say about bike battery The Suzuki make a good comparison as it has a top speed of 71.5 mph, vs. 68.1 mph for the Zero and a slightly quicker ¼ mile time of 18.37 seconds vs. 19.31 seconds for the Zero. However, the Suzuki has a slower 0-60 time of 13.62 seconds to the Zero’s 0-60 time of 11.73. The Zero makes a 22.58 hp on their dyno, while the Suzuki makes 13.29 hp, it has a 5-speed transmission and weighs slightly less, which evens the performance comparison. (That caught my eye. It would appear that having a transmission can compensate noticeably for a lower power motor.) The Suzuki weighs 276.5 pounds and the Zero weighs 296 pounds. The Suzuki got as much as 86.7 mpg in their testing and averaged 63.8 mpg in both on-road and off-road use. This gives the Suzuki a fuel cost of $0.069 per mile, compared with the Zero’s $0.03 per mile.

But then you have to compare maintenance. The Suzuki’s cost for filters, oil changes, valve adjustments, etc. would average an additional $0.062 per mile, compared with the Zero’s minimal maintenance requirements of cleaning and replacing its motor’s brushes at 8000 mile intervals and checking the bike over every 4000 miles. They estimate that this would add another $0.033 per mile to the Zero’s mileage cost.

However the big cost for owners of the Zero is the need to replace its $4000 battery, which, based upon their analysis would need to be replaced every 36,000 miles, assuming a range of 20 miles and a specified 1800 charging cycles. The price to replace the Zero’s custom-made battery choked them up quite a bit and that added another $0.111 per mile to the cost of ownership of the bike.

The grand totals come to a ownership cost (over 36,000 miles) of $0.174 per mile for the Zero DS and $0.131 per mile for the Suzuki DR200S. Note that this does not include the cost of insurance, tires, brake pads and other expenses shared by both motorcycles. Their calculations also don’t include the $10,495 price of the Zero, which is much more than the $4199 price of the Suzuki, although current Government incentives lower the final purchase price of the Zero. Naturally, the conclusion is that it is cheaper to purchase and ride the Suzuki, compared with the Zero at this stage in the technological game. But they conclude that if EV purchase prices drop, and performance and fuel prices increase, the economic cost to own IC and EV motorcycles will become more comparable, but right now the advantage is still with the gasoline-powered motorcycle.
If you have any question related to my this post so you can feel free ask to me...

You've got old info.

Packs go life of vehicle and beyond now.

Motors are brushless and need nothing.

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/

 

[Hillhater]

given the same bike setup e.g.mtb,26"wheels,hs3540 motor and lyen 36,40amp controller...is there a range difference between an a123 lifepo4 36v,20amp battery and a 36v,20amp lipo battery....and of course, same speed[25mph] and terrain

hi kriskros, what i want to say about bike battery The Suzuki make a good comparison as it has a top speed of 71.5 mph, vs. 68.1 mph for the Zero and a slightly quicker ¼ mile time of 18.37 seconds vs. 19.31 seconds for the Zero. However,....
But then you have to compare maintenance. ..........
..... but right now the advantage is still with the gasoline-powered motorcycle.
If you have any question related to my this post so you can feel free ask to me...

is this some form of lateral thinking ?? :?

 

[AussieJester]

Out of curiosity Luke, legally what does 'life of the vehicle' mean in years? It
is surely hard to put a figure on how long the bike will last is it not? There are 30-40 year
old motorcycles being ridden around, would a battery be capable of lasting this long
with daily charging? I find this a lil hard to believe...? If it lasted 10-15 years with daily charging
and retained 85-90% capacity i would consider it pretty damn good and money well spent
... Just curious anywayz mate, not trying to be negative in anyway about the Zero its a damn
fine product

KiM

p.s no idea why hnasc posted this here but since he did thought i would ask haha

 

[Joseph C.]

Out of curiosity Luke, legally what does 'life of the vehicle' mean in years? It
is surely hard to put a figure on how long the bike will last is it not? There are 30-40 year
old motorcycles being ridden around, would a battery be capable of lasting this long
with daily charging? I find this a lil hard to believe...? If it lasted 10-15 years with daily charging
and retained 85-90% capacity i would consider it pretty damn good and money well spent
... Just curious anywayz mate, not trying to be negative in anyway about the Zero its a damn
fine product

KiM

p.s no idea why hnasc posted this here but since he did thought i would ask haha

Is Luke not bound by a non-disclosure agreement about specifics? You don't want him to be sued, now do you Kim.

I was looking this up earlier and found this. They suggest 20 years before the batteries lose full capacity.

http://www.economist.com/node/17352944

http://www.corvus-energy.com/datasheets.html

3,000 cycles.

Edit: Dow Kokam produce NMC cells too or maybe they produce for Corvus. Irrespective, their stats are less impressive with an operational life-span of ten years and 2,000 cycles at 80 per cent depth of charge. I prefer Covus's claims.

http://www.dowkokam.com/tech-cells.htm

 

[neptronix]

Yeah, 'life of the vehicle' is a pretty nebulous concept.. by some automakers, it is 100,000 miles.

I have not heard of a lithium battery that has a calendar life of more than 10 years. A brushless DC motor would theoretically last forever.. sooo..

 

[AussieJester]

Is Luke not bound by a non-disclosure agreement about specifics? You don't want him to be sued, now do you Kim.

OH crap :-| I didn't even think of that.... definitely don't want our lad in trouble that's for sure...

KiM

 

[Hillhater]

Yeah, 'life of the vehicle' is a pretty nebulous concept.. by some automakers, it is 100,000 miles.

I have not heard of a lithium battery that has a calendar life of more than 10 years. A brushless DC motor would theoretically last forever.. sooo..

I suspect most motors, ICE engines, bikes, cars , trains, planes etc etc could last forever..... if correctly maintained !
Elec Motors will need bearing replaced ( possibly even magnets at some point),
My neighbour has 2, 90yr old motor bikes he still rides !
Cars will need bearings , pistons, gearbox's ( you can even get full replacement bodyshells for some) etc,
..and there are many 80+yr old planes still flying !
...so yes,..life span is pretty open ended ...except for humans !
.. Maybe "for the life of the original purchaser" ...would be more realistic ?

 

[John in CR]

Sorry Lipo guys, but I have to cry foul and say yes there is more than an insignificant difference. First, let's assume that the nominal voltage and nominal AH are accurate and identical for each pack. That means they both have identical capacity and theoretical range, however, in real world use you can't discharge Lipo (talking about the RC lipo many are using) to deep discharge like you can with Lifepo4. Also, you'll be lucky if the Lipo lasts half as long (that's assuming no BMS cell killing by the Lifepo4 and no early cell failures for the Lipo, both huge assumptions).

That means in real world use the Lifepo4 will give you more usable range on a charge as well as a lot more expected lifetime range.

 

[Jimbo]

Hi all,

Id be inclined to agree with John here, not that i know anything about this, but just looking at the numbers Lipo gives you 1V usable range (4.2full to 3.2empty) and A123 gives you nearly double (3.8V to 2.0V = 1.8V) so i would assume you would get nearly double the range because you can use more of the available energy in the battery.

Or am i barking?

 

[Spacey]

I would say that an A123 pack compared to saggy low end Lifepo4 would be preferable as it holds it's voltage all the way to the end so should in theory hold it's speed all the way to the end covering more miles before battery is empty.

Cheap crappy Lifepo4 sags like grannies tits and gradually loses pvolts towards the end of a charge.

Lipo which I use right now does not really sag much at all but does slow down as the voltage drops gradually and predictably, it also can not really be deep discharged and will not last as long as Lifepo4.

I will be going A123 for my ext build.

 

[999zip999]

Kriskos how long have you had your a123 ? Are you happy with it ? What bms and has it had given you any problems ? Remeber you can plug your a123 and walk away and sleep at night. Alot less risk of FIRE.

 

[kriskros]

Kriskos how long have you had your a123 ? Are you happy with it ? What bms and has it had given you any problems ? Remeber you can plug your a123 and walk away and sleep at night. Alot less risk of FIRE.

Ive had my a123 battery since may/11 about 1800 miles and 90cycles..no problems. full charge always shows 43.3 volts...bms and battery suppliedby cellman.. voltage sag approx 39.9 to 38.6 after 18ah ride..CA reading ... and thats how i charge it..very happy