Best lifepo4 battery....period.

[Jason27]

So guys....why does an AllCell battery cost so much?

Superior quality, excellent customer service. Kinda like the Mercedes Benz of ebike batteries.

 

[Electro-Fox]

Well I am still confused and am thinking of throwing in the towel.
The Ping seems to be the only choice as everything else comes from ebay from what I perceive as less than reputable sources. The Ping weighs 16.5 lbs for a 48volt 15 amp hour battery, while the equivalent in an AllCell is 9.7 lbs but the cost is prohibitive...I mean, they are stupid expensive! I ride on flat streets and really do not need much at all for the commute, but on a trek down a rails to trail (nothing intense mind you) the bigger battery would be the way to go just for the range. Still, that is a lot of weight to carry around for a push up a few hills, and that is not just the battery weight but the weight of the hub too. I just don't want to try and build one as that could be a money pit too, not to mention beyond my skill set. I had a battery ordered from the manufacturer but I got frustrated with them, as they NEVER update you on ANYTHING, so I canceled the order. That battery was a massive frame mounted battery. So maybe this electric stuff is not for me? I guess that is why people just buy an electric bike, instead of making over their bike.
Not to vent...but as someone said, I am probably over-thinking this. I only post this as I can't help but think that I am missing something.

 

[arkmundi]

This will be used with a Falcoe 500 watt hub motor, which uses an internal controller. I can use a 36 or 48 volt but thought that the 48 volt would be the best choice. Isn't LiPo4 the best chemistry?

Best all-round chemistry, yes, in my opinion. Its been around for awhile, there are a lot of good manufacturers, its relatively one of the safer chemistries to use, has good cycle-life, and is recyclable and environmentally friendly, comparatively. A123 has the patents for nano-phosphate LiFePO4 and remains in a class by itself. I got my cells and kit to make them into a 16S 48V battery pack from OSNPower. I'd trust OSNPower, EM3ev, Ping, and BMSBattery for a battery. Also Headway and there are a lot of suppliers for that brand. Headway also relatively easy to get cells and kit to make up into a battery. You also need to consider, in addition to voltage, the amperage you're running.

Well I am still confused and am thinking of throwing in the towel. ....maybe this electric stuff is not for me? I guess that is why people just buy an electric bike, instead of making over their bike.

You just need to work it out for yourself this one time. You've got a great hub motor in the Falco. Hang in there. And believe me that people who buy a ready-to-ride eBike like Pedego, also have to face the battery question when their first battery fails.

 

[Electro-Fox]

This will be used with a Falcoe 500 watt hub motor, which uses an internal controller. I can use a 36 or 48 volt but thought that the 48 volt would be the best choice. Isn't LiPo4 the best chemistry?

Best all-round chemistry, yes, in my opinion. Its been around for awhile, there are a lot of good manufacturers, its relatively one of the safer chemistries to use, has good cycle-life, and is recyclable and environmentally friendly, comparatively. A123 has the patents for nano-phosphate LiFePO4 and remains in a class by itself. I got my cells and kit to make them into a 16S 48V battery pack from OSNPower. I'd trust OSNPower, EM3ev, Ping, and BMSBattery for a battery. Also Headway and there are a lot of suppliers for that brand. Headway also relatively easy to get cells and kit to make up into a battery. You also need to consider, in addition to voltage, the amperage you're running.

Well I am still confused and am thinking of throwing in the towel. ....maybe this electric stuff is not for me? I guess that is why people just buy an electric bike, instead of making over their bike.

You just need to work it out for yourself this one time. You've got a great hub motor in the Falco. Hang in there. And believe me that people who buy a ready-to-ride eBike like Pedego, also have to face the battery question when their first battery fails.

A123 has the patents for nano-phosphate LiFePO4 and remains in a class by itself. What is A123? Is that a cell...manufacturer, brand?

Thanks for all the suppliers, but although I know they sell batteries I am still in the dark. I am told that the Ping batteries are hard to repair because the cells are pouches, but yet I cannot seem to figure out the cells used in other brands. They all assume that I know their jargon, but it is overwhelming trying to figure out each company. Then some give measurements while others don't, some provide pricing while others don't. OMG
I cannot afford to blindly plunk $500 to $1000 dollars down without understanding.

 

[Electro-Fox]

Another problem is fitting the battery onto the bike. I don't really want to use the triangle as I will just have to move the water bottles, which is inconvenient. I thought about putting the battery in a bag on the front rack but when a battery weighs over 16 pounds, that is a lot of weight to throw on the fork. I have had loaded front panniers and it does affect handling. I want the amp hours as I will be pulling a trailer from time to time.

I notice that Ping (in some cases) gets the capacity by using two batteries...such as this one.
http://www.pingbattery.com/servlet/the-2/lifepo4-lithium-ion-phosphate/Detail
Could I get that and put them in a pair of panniers? One battery on each side? I can get saddlebag panniers or have them made. Then I would need to have the batteries protected in the panniers in case of a crash, but it would eliminate the lack of space problem.

 

[arkmundi]

They all assume that I know their jargon, but it is overwhelming trying to figure out each company. Then some give measurements while others don't, some provide pricing while others don't. OMG I cannot afford to blindly plunk $500 to $1000 dollars down without understanding.

Understandable. I encourage research and making an informed purchase from a reputable supplier. This forum site is the best place for that research. You'll encounter opinion as well as fact. So take some time and do that research, here and using Google search. As far as terms are concerned, https://en.wikipedia.org to explore that. For instance... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A123_Systems

I notice that Ping (in some cases) gets the capacity by using two batteries...such as this one.
http://www.pingbattery.com/servlet/the-2/lifepo4-lithium-ion-phosphate/Detail
Could I get that and put them in a pair of panniers? One battery on each side? I can get saddlebag panniers or have them made. Then I would need to have the batteries protected in the panniers in case of a crash, but it would eliminate the lack of space problem.

Yes, you could do that. I mount my battery pannier style on a back-rack.

 

[Electro-Fox]

arkmundi
Exactly how do you do the dual batteries?

 

[arkmundi]

My battery is 48V, made in two blocks of 24V, 8S each. Back rack - a good sturdy one, not the cheap kind. Panniers made from Klein Tools 5416 Bull-Pin and Bolt Bag. Which were the right size to fit them. Strapped together and tied to the rack. Weight balances out on either side. And the weight is low on the frame. So the bike rides nice. Is holding up well, no signs of any strain or stress. Put on two sets of two, so I can expand from 48V 20ah, to 40ah when needed. Boxed the entire top with plywood and faux leather, stapled. Looks nice, covers all the wiring. Lot's of ways to achieve the same. Key is splitting the weight of a battery and then wiring the two sides together to keep the electrical character of your battery pack as a whole.

 

[slacker]

why dont you get a battery from falco ?

 

[Electro-Fox]

why dont you get a battery from falco ?

Too big...takes up the entire triangle, which I just don't want to do.

 

[arkmundi]

CellMan still do A123s?

No. He was sourcing his cells from the Korean factory until uncertainty about the future of A123 arose. He's using top-of-the line Samsung cells now:

We now offer 4 type of Samsung cell in our packs. We have the ICR18650-22 (NCM cell, 3C rated, approximately 2.1Ah) cell. We also have the High Energy density INR18650-29E (NCA Cell, 2C Max rated cell, with approx 2.8Ah nominal Capacity). There are also 2 High Power cell, the INR18650-20R and the INR18650-25R. These are NCA type cell, 10C (20R) and 8C (25R) rated cells with Capacities of approximately 1.90Ah (20R) and 2.45Ah (25R).

But it does beg the question by "what is best?" A credible vendor like Paul will say something about long-life, consistency, availability, etc. He wants his customers to be happy. His reputation matters. But they are not LiFePO4 which was the question.

 

[slacker]

falco makes a rear rack batt also.

 

[arkmundi]

falco makes a rear rack batt also.

Went hunting for

Technical Specs: The pack merely weighs 2.5 kg and it delivers 417Wh of energy (36V, 11.6Ah). The pack has a number of primary as well as secondary protections. The packs use Lithium Ion Rechargeable battery cells from Panasonic (Cell Model NCR18650PD). Typical cell capacity is 2880mAh and minimum cell capacity is 2730mAh. The packs uses 10S4p configuration.... http://www.utahtrikes.com/PROD-11619093.html

Panasonic NCR cells are noteworthy. But not LiFePO4, which was the question.

 

[Electro-Fox]

So what do you all think is the life span of a battery, if maintained correctly.

 

[999zip999]

Info ? Ping puts on his website the power rating for all his batteries. Just match with proper controller. Pings die because of over amped controller.

 

[Electro-Fox]

Thanks for the info...good info. If I take care of the pack and do not overly discharge the pack or anything else that could prematurely shorten its life, just how does the cycles expected translate into time owned. If for example, I buy a battery that cost $1200, and it lasts a year, that means that it is costing me $100 per month (not counting cost of charging) just for the use of the battery. If I get the same use from a $600 dollar battery, then my cost is $50 per month. Therefore, the choice of a battery can mean a greater savings just based on initial outlay of money. All the talk about quality and chemistry, and life cycles, is great, but for me I need a more direct way to make a decision. I know that if I buy a compact car I can get a certain amount of life out of that car, and great gas mileage, which gives me an expectation of use. The problem I am having is I cannot boil it down to expected results. If I buy a Lexus I get a high quality car, with expectations of what I get out of it. But it seems that the battery choice can be cheap or expensive and get the same results. So you see my dilemma. I would not be a happy camper if I buy a battery and it only makes it 6 months. That my friends is not worth it.

 

[arkmundi]

First thing is to get the datasheet for the cells used in a battery, all of which I have seen will have life-cycles, the number of charge/discharge cycles that the cell is rated for. From there its possible to calculate total lifetime watt-hours. Watt-hours are the energy content of a battery and is calculated as wh = v * ah, the batteries voltage times its amp-hours.

So, for example, my A123 AMP20 battery is 48V, 20ah, and is rated for 2000 life-cycles. It could very well be, and likely will be more than 2000 cycles, upwards to 3000 or 4000 cycles, but for the sake of comparison, its best to take the rated cycle life from the datasheet, the number of cycles which the cells are certified for, a product manufacturer's warranty claim. Hence total lifetime energy content for my battery is (2000 * 48 * 20) / 1000 or 1920 kwh. Note that kwh is the unit which electricity providers charge customers with. I spent $716 for that battery (see my PROMOTING OSN A123 20ah packs post). That is $0.37 per kwh. Note that units are USD and I have included shipping costs.

Furthermore, its possible to use that number to calculate a comparative cost to other fuels, as its the "consumption" value. Batteries get used up just like gasoline gets burned. So I add in the cost per kwh of my electricity which is $0.13. So $0.50 per kwh includes the cost of battery use and electricity. Its possible to calculate how many kwh/mile you use with any number of devices - I'm using about 0.036 kwh/mile. So my total "fuel cost" is about $0.018 per mile. Compare that to gasoline for US average of 24 mpg, about $0.13 per mile. Another way of looking at that is a vehicle getting 173 mpg equivalents.

 

[Electro-Fox]

arkmundi
Thank you so much...what a great response.

I have been thinking of getting the Em3ev Triangle pack that they sell. Specifically the INR18650-29E...16.5Ah 825Whrs... This is not Lifepo so is this a safe way to go? What is your opinion of this pack?

 

[arkmundi]

arkmundi
Thank you so much...what a great response.

I have been thinking of getting the Em3ev Triangle pack that they sell. Specifically the INR18650-29E...16.5Ah 825Whrs... This is not Lifepo so is this a safe way to go? What is your opinion of this pack?

Go for it! Cellman makes great battery packs, and as a vendor is highly regarded. He used to make his packs from A123 cells, back before the company declared bankruptcy. He has since made packs with top-of-the-line Samsung cells. You won't find a better right-sized battery-pack for sell. Its also an advantage to get everything from one vendor if you can. My setup was supplied by Cellman except for the battery. There is only one battery-pack that might qualify as superior and its a pack made from A123 nanophosphate. At the moment, however, you have to make them yourself. Which might be a good thing.

 

[riba2233]

arkmundi
Thank you so much...what a great response.

I have been thinking of getting the Em3ev Triangle pack that they sell. Specifically the INR18650-29E...16.5Ah 825Whrs... This is not Lifepo so is this a safe way to go? What is your opinion of this pack?

They are as safe as lifepo4, don't worry. They are great cells, I use them in my moped.

 

[Electro-Fox]

With my hub being a 500 watt hub, how does that relate to the battery choice? I would assume that someone that is using a lot of power would need a high output battery. I do want to get Cellman's triangle battery and want good capacity but I do not understand the different choices. For example: What is the difference between inr18650 vs icr18650? I was going to with the 29E, but according to their website they are 6% heavier. I am just guessing at this stuff, as I just cannot wrap my head around all the numbers. That said, I was looking into the INR18650-20R (17.5Ahrs 885Whrs). This should be a good selection right? And give me good range with my 500 watt hub?
Their batteries come with a BMS, and a 5amp charger. What do I need to know when I get this? Do I need to charge first? They mention sparking when connecting, and I worry about doing something stupid.
Opinions please...do you think the above battery choice is good? Do I need to use a Cycle Analyst? I know they can be hooked up to the Falcoe system...or maybe just to the battery. You can use the CA instead of a BMS that comes with the battery?

Sorry for all the questions...

 

[Cephalotus]

If you want "the best" battery do not buy any LiFePO4 pack from China... period...

Depending on the maximum current and the maximum recup current(!) from your motor I would go with a pack made of some Panasonic NCR18650 cells, if you have lots of money to burn the BE type, if you want something chap and good the PF. Add an excellent BMS (or use a charger with balancer) and avoid overheating the pack (this includes storage).

If you can avoid heat the pack should survive 15+ years OR 1000+ cycles form 4,1V to 3,0V (incl some low recup cycles).

The best thing vs LiFePO4 blocks is that you can make it custom size to fit your bike nicley, rather than having this huge and heavyweight LiFePO4 block hanging "somehwere" on the bike or between your knees...

If you have a well designed battery pack it doesn't matter where you ride it (except that heat will degrade any Li-ion cell, NCA is less senisble than LiFEPO4/LFP and that less sensible compared to LMN)

Just my opinion.

 

[Electro-Fox]

If you want "the best" battery do not buy any LiFePO4 pack from China... period...

Depending on the maximum current and the maximum recup current(!) from your motor I would go with a pack made of some Panasonic NCR18650 cells, if you have lots of money to burn the BE type, if you want something chap and good the PF. Add an excellent BMS (or use a charger with balancer) and avoid overheating the pack (this includes storage).

If you can avoid heat the pack should survive 15+ years OR 1000+ cycles form 4,1V to 3,0V (incl some low recup cycles).

The best thing vs LiFePO4 blocks is that you can make it custom size to fit your bike nicley, rather than having this huge and heavyweight LiFePO4 block hanging "somehwere" on the bike or between your knees...

If you have a well designed battery pack it doesn't matter where you ride it (except that heat will degrade any Li-ion cell, NCA is less senisble than LiFEPO4/LFP and that less sensible compared to LMN)

Just my opinion.

Anyone you could recommend?

 

[arkmundi]

Anyone you could recommend?

You'll get hammered with much diverse opinion here on the forum, so need to sort it out. You'll get good results from either:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=67771&start=25#p1042296
-OR-
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=67771&start=25#p1043737

 

[teklektik]

EF-
Not to be rude or harsh, but this thread is all over the place - you cannot possibly hope to get meaningful answers...

• The title itself unequivocally demands LiFe - and yet here you are on page 3 making a buy decision about NMC/NCA cells.
  You are going to use a fork bag and won't consider a triangle bag - but now are going to use a triangle bag (goes to cell form factor).
  You are concerned about 6% weight difference in NMC/NCA cells but started off with the heaviest/lowest energy density battery (LiFe).
  You originally wanted to just jam as much battery as possible into a fixed bag size but now are asking about range.
  You haven't given any distance for the commute and say nothing except that it's flat and you pedal a lot (which is easy on power consumption) - don't talk about traffic start/stops (which eat power), and then say you want to pull a trailer (which eats power on starts and hills), and want to ride in the snow (which is incredibly taxing) --- so basically a wide spectrum of use from super light to super heavy with no distance requirements.
  
  And above all else - you didn't want to "go to school in order to buy a battery" and now are asking semi-technical questions, after having discouraged actual technical advice in favor of 'opinions'...

This is like walking into a bar and shouting - "What's the best pickup to buy?".
You can be certain that succinct and well-considered answers meeting your exact needs will ensue...

There is nothing wrong with asking noob questions, but you are starting out with critical constraining decisions, then reversing yourself. You may be frustrated by the variety of opinions expressed here - but you pretty much set the stage...

If you really don't want to understand this stuff, then just buy a big-ass battery from Ping or EM3EV (both well respected vendors with completely different offerings) and enjoy whatever it will do for you. Experience will fill in the blanks you don't wish to investigate up front. This generally works okay and frankly is the basis for many of the opinions you solicited - buy and learn.

Otherwise, slow down, read more and ask more fundamental questions to help you balance the tradeoffs - before making decisions that (unknowingly) severely limit your options and results.

That said - here's some technical stuff you didn't want to hear:

• Your motor has an integrated controller that is rated at 35A @ 36V and can be adjusted up to 50A (about right when hooked to 48V - but you could leave it at 35A with 48V and give up some torque). It's your controller amperage as well as cruising current draw that must shape your battery buy.
  
  You will need to choose a cell type such that the Ah rating times the 'C' rating matches the controller current draw for both Max (getaways, hills, etc) and continuous use (cruising - normal start/top and mean speed and load (snow!)). So a 15Ah pack with a nominal 2C rating will provide about 30A of current whereas the same pack made with 5C cells will provide 75A. If you continuously flog the battery at close to capacity it will have a detrimental effect on cycle life so many folks use a '1/2 C rating' rule of thumb as a tradeoff to minimize flogging and extend cycle life. Here is where that whole business about 'type of use' comes in (that you answered as 'every use from light to super heavy'). Running light loads will let you use a Ping - no problem since they are 2C batteries. But load the crap out of the bike for long periods in the snow and you need a higher 'C' rate (or Ah capacity) battery to carry the load without being damaged (eg one of the EM3EV batteries). So - pick your cell type based on use OR limit your use to match the cell type you can afford to buy or carry...
  
  
• Your range (without fudging for lots of start/stops, hills, etc) is:
  
  Range = (Wh capacity of your battery) / (Wh/mi consumption) * (percentage Depth of Discharge)
  
  Your DoD is probably 80% for LiFe and 90% for NMC and NCA (DoD = cycle life vs capacity trade-off - more opinion...)
  You are a heavy pedaller so your consumption may be as low as 10-15 Whr/mi on the flat. In the snow it might be way more than 60. For comparison, it takes about 13whr/mi to move a mountain bike at 15mph without pedaling, about 21Whr/mi to do 20mph, and about 40Whr/mi to do 30mph. So what's your range? Well - from your specification (which is: many widely varying uses) - we just can't tell - it will depend...

A little understanding will help you see the tradeoffs and do a little simple arithmetic to get what is most important to you .