Big fire ball today - Ctrlr REPAIRED !

I would bet the measurements you have already made with your ohm meter are sufficient. Sometimes with the external circuitry, and the internal design of your meter, you can get false positives for a short. But since you did all three phases and two phases tested OK, one phase tested bad, chances are that you have the shorted FETs identified.

As to the other questions. The FETs used are Nchannel devices. Think of them as a simple switch. The Drain goes to the more positive voltage, and the Source to the more negative. Think of the Gate is the lever that turns on the switch. When the Gate goes about 4 volts above the Source the FET is fully turned on. It has a resistance though which is Rds On in the data sheets. If the Gate goes either 20 volts above or below the Source it can fail by the oxide "punching through." The Gate is very, very thinly insulated from the Source to make the device work. If the insulation were thicker, it would be insensitive. The Fet can also fail by punch through if the Drain gets appreciably above the Source voltage rating. These voltage excursions are typically the ones that kill our controllers. They are controlled, not eliminated, by the capacitors we place across the bus. When we stress controllers, it is my opinion, that the bus capacitors are more important than the FETs to the controllers survival.

In your controller there are Two FETs paralleled in what we call the "Top" FETs of the H-Bridge, and two FETs paralleled in the "bottom" FETs position of the H-Bridge. This is done to increase the current capability of the controller. When FETs were first developed, the TO-220 package was more robust than the silicon die itself. As time progressed and silicon processing and doping progressed the die got stronger than the package itself. For example there are only two 0.015 inch aluminum wires going from the Source tab to the Source pad on the die. All our power has to go through these short, but very thin wires. The capability of these "bond wires" or "bond out wires" is what gives the "package limitation" on amperage. The intrinsic capability of the silicon is called the "silicon limitation" on amperage in the spec sheet. Typical installations will be thermally constrained at a current below these two "theoretical maximum" values. Typically 40% to 60% of them.

This might help on explaining 3 phase and how the FET H bridge is configured:
http://ebldc.com/?p=147
 
gtadmin said:
knoxie said:
Fuse in series with the pre charge resistor isnt a bad idea but most likely not required.
How would you know it was blown? If it were and you then connected your main leads, you would then blow your main fuse anyway (given you have a short somewhere in the rest of the circuit).

...
a precharge resistor to be honest its just 1 more thing to get wrong or drain off your pack,
...
Yes, could drain your pack over a week or so if you leave it connected

The fuse is there to protect the cable not the resistor or the controller, it will of course function in the same way and protect both though, fitting fuses to any ancillary cable is a good idea though.
 
Trying to remove the bad FET tonight, need advice.

I can't get the solder to melt on the 3 legs at the same time, so i cannot pull the FET out.

There must be a trick here. I think i saw somewhere a little pump or something like this to remove the solder on each leg one at a time,
then when the 3 are clean, i can pull the FET out.

Does that exist ? How is it called ? Or there is another trick ?

thanks for the guidance.
 
It's called desoldering pump, and if you don't have it yet it's high time you get one because it's cheap and really a-must-have tool.

Of course, you could unsolder that FET by wiggling it while you heat it's legs, but pump would help you remove it much quicker and easier.
 
yes solder pump or solder braid to wick away the solder is what you want, there is a thread on here where Fechter did a fantastic repair instruction, this was primarily for xlyte controllers but the principle is the same, I will try and dig it out for you, I have repaired so many controllers, its not as bad as you think and it great when you get it working again.
 
when I run out of whick, or don't have my pump with me, I soak up extra solder with another piece of stranded wire. It sometimes takes clipping the end off and stripping back another 1cm several times, so I like to cut some 10cm sections, strip both ends, and have them handy for soaking up solder if I need it.

Just a quick tip if you don't have the pump handy

My first solder sucker was a turkey baster with a ballpoint pen tip (minus ink) taped to the end. I was on a collage budget. But it worked fine... or rather, it totally sucked! :D
 
If you are running a pre-charge resistor to protect a switch or relay, 1000 ohms is too big for a 90v system. It might help if you are using connectors to disconnect the battery but the voltage difference will be too big when you flip the main switch and the contacts will weld them selves together. I know this from experience. :oops: 200 - 300 ohms works fine for me.

Above info came straight from Big M when I was having the problem (thanks).
 
nicobie said:
If you are running a pre-charge resistor to protect a switch or relay, 1000 ohms is too big for a 90v system. It might help if you are using connectors to disconnect the battery but the voltage difference will be too big when you flip the main switch and the contacts will weld them selves together. I know this from experience. :oops: 200 - 300 ohms works fine for me.

Above info came straight from Big M when I was having the problem (thanks).

ok,
actually tonight i was testing with a 600 ohm that i had on hand, it seems fine. so i'll keep this one instead of going to 1K.

thanks
 
no problems and the best of luck with the repair, gate resistors can also blow as well, easy to test them with a steady hand and a DVM, easy to repair simply solder new ones over the top of the blown ones, I roll blu tac in to a little stick, attach the resistor to the end of it to hold it in place.

you need good eyesight to do surface mount work though.

Some of the cheaper Chinese controllers have very poor quality and sometimes fake branded fets in them, on all my controllers I would always replace all of the fets if one blew making sure I got the new fets from a reliable source and it wasnt just the fets that were fake in some of the older controllers either.

Let us know how you get on.

Knoxie
 
Hi guys

Replaced 4 FET tonight, hope I did not burnt them. No time to test yet, still have to install fuse.

One question : I would like to order some spare FET, just in case, but there is nothing written on them.
Anyone knows what type they are ? Voltage ? Watts ? Amps ?
Details of my board in my signature.

Thanks
 
No matter what the factory installed. Order IRFB4110pbf. They all have the same pinout, and it's the best commonly available part for <100v.

http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irfb4110pbf.pdf
 
liveforphysics said:
No matter what the factory installed. Order IRFB4110pbf. They all have the same pinout, and it's the best commonly available part for <100v.

http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irfb4110pbf.pdf
Ok thanks
I have 12 on my board, can I mix this model with the others ?
Say I use 4 of the new ones for one phase but keep the current ones for the other 2 phases ?

Thanks
 
Hugues said:
liveforphysics said:
No matter what the factory installed. Order IRFB4110pbf. They all have the same pinout, and it's the best commonly available part for <100v.

http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irfb4110pbf.pdf
Ok thanks
I have 12 on my board, can I mix this model with the others ?
Say I use 4 of the new ones for one phase but keep the current ones for the other 2 phases ?

Thanks


Yes, as long as you keep the groups of 2 that are paralleled together as the same FET, it should work fine.
 
a source of 4110's in Switzerland:

http://ch.farnell.com/jsp/search/browse.jsp?N=2004+204245&Ntk=gensearch&Ntt=4110&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial

Where in Switzerland are you by the way ?
 
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !

Took me all week but i finally repaired my controller !!!!!

Changed the first 2 FET on the blue phase and all is well , bike is riding smoothly again, just in time for the week-end.

Added a 40 A fuse also, just in case i do something stupid again.

Thanks to you all, you've been of great help !

cheers,
(still don't know why these 2 FET blew up . Bike was parked and controller off, anyway)
 
Hey! great stuff! well done so pleased you fixed the controller and fitted a fuse! double great! enjoy your bike again my friend! well done :mrgreen:

Knoxie
 
Congrats Hugues,
DIY repairs make our ebikes that much more pleasing to ride. While I've done DIY car repairs it never gave me the same sense of freedom from the man.
John
 
So why did the FETs failed ?
I thought the precharge resistor is there to lesen the spike to the caps so they can protect the FETs from shoot throughs if the spike overflows the cap.

if he has 100v 1000uf caps, what will protect the FETs better under same usage conditions, instaling 100v 1500uf
or
150v 1000uf ?

when running FETs close to their limits like in races where FETs fail after 2 runs it's because they wear out faster like when overclocking a cpu ?

FETs under trial, we demand justice be served !

the hell with SMOKE GODS ! Burn them on the steak !
 
Precharge only does anything at all when connecting battery to controller. Serves no other purpose.

What it does in that operation is to fill the capacitors up at a slow rate, so there is no large current surge across the connectors (or switch or relay contacts), preventing damage to them. It also helps keep the capacitors themselves and the current paths to them from the extreme current surges of the initial power-on or connection, which may lengthen their lifespan.
 
but still, he has a valid question, what made these 2 FET fail in the first place ?

remember the fire ball came after i realized my back wheel was stiff to turn. This after using the bike in the morning to get to work, downhill only, a bit of regen (too much ?).

Then when i got back to my bike at night, it was stiff to turn. Only when i managed to get home (thanks darling for the ride) that i got this short.

I hope they won't fail at random like this , because could be a pain in the neck to return home with a stiff wheel and no power, if i'm in the middle of nowhere and no car can reach me on these trails. :(
 
well that's what i said, the spark discharge on contact goes without saying, in behind the scene the resistor is like another filter to the final destination to the FETs at power up.
people said the 1st spike from batteries can be much over the hot surface charge, lets say if it's 90v the spike can be 110v for a split second, the resistor slows current and since they are related, lowers the voltage.

what happens to a cap when hit by overvoltage ? that next after a FET gets his gate breached.

maybe some moisture got in, that's how i suspect my controller blew, it just stood overnight outside in humid weather, i turned bat switch ON and it puffed, before i powered the controller, something shorted.

god lesson here, to check for shorts on phase lines by spinning wheel before any power ONs.

no 1 knows about what capacitor will defend the FETs better on start ups ?
 
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