BionX motor repair by Doctorbass

[itselectric]

I found a picture of the NEW 2011 Bionx motor ( lighter and less cog)

Doc

That is the 2011 special edition 48v system, known as PL350 XL (extra long). The motor is lighter then previous version and the battery had high capacity and lighter then the previous battery. There are only few limited dealers have access to this kit due to limited production.

Ken

 

[itselectric]

this is 2011 48v special edition Bionx kit
[youtube]W2L-pP-vGwo[/youtube]

 

[GCinDC]

48V battery is lighter? consequently lower capacity? and still slower/less torque than 500W kit?

 

[itselectric]

48V battery is lighter? consequently lower capacity? and still slower/less torque than 500W kit?

The new 48v battery pack is from Samsung cell, with high capacity then old sony cell. As a result, higher capacity and lighter weight. It has faster acceleration and higher torque then PL350, no to mention lighter weight, and much faster acceleration compare to PL500. The top speed is limited by the firmware, to meet the ebike regulation, 20mph.

 

[Doctorbass]

48V battery is lighter? consequently lower capacity? and still slower/less torque than 500W kit?

The new 48v battery pack is from Samsung cell, with high capacity then old sony cell. As a result, higher capacity and lighter weight. It has faster acceleration and higher torque then PL350, no to mention lighter weight, and much faster acceleration compare to PL500. The top speed is limited by the firmware, to meet the ebike regulation, 20mph.

Ken, have you opened one of teh battery? what are the numbers on the cell? Are they still the 18650 cylindrical format like the Sony 1.5Ah konion cells?

Doc

 

[itselectric]

48V battery is lighter? consequently lower capacity? and still slower/less torque than 500W kit?

The new 48v battery pack is from Samsung cell, with high capacity then old sony cell. As a result, higher capacity and lighter weight. It has faster acceleration and higher torque then PL350, no to mention lighter weight, and much faster acceleration compare to PL500. The top speed is limited by the firmware, to meet the ebike regulation, 20mph.

Ken, have you opened one of teh battery? what are the numbers on the cell? Are they still the 18650 cylindrical format like the Sony 1.5Ah konion cells?
Doc

Doc, it is extremely difficult to get my hand on one these battery, limited production, if you are a dealer pre-order in 2010, you will have it by now.
Yes, they are 18650 Samsung cylindrical. May be 2.4 - 2.6Ah per cell. That is how they can get more into the same space compare to 1.5 - 1.6Ah konion cell. The old sony konion was packed in Germany by BMZ, the new Samsung cell was packed in China.

Ken

 

[Doctorbass]

Thanks for the info!.. btw... the sony 1.5Ah cells was rated 10C ( 15A max).. so i wonder if the new 2.6 Ah cells are rated similar? have you the model of these cells?

 

[itselectric]

Thanks for the info!.. btw... the sony 1.5Ah cells was rated 10C ( 15A max).. so i wonder if the new 2.6 Ah cells are rated similar? have you the model of these cells?

Doc:
I don't know the c-rate of the cell. But I heard rumor from multiple sources the same factory that pack Bionx battery, also make pack for eZee.

It looks to me the standard choice of cell for major ebike/ev companies are:
- panasonic
- LG
- samsung

and because konion had such as low Ah, it become less desirable for some major companies to be use in production. It's all about balance the requirement and general public demand. Do you want high discharge with less Ah. Or do you want high Ah for distance, but less discharge rate?

Ken

 

[Doctorbass]

[ Do you want high discharge with less Ah. Or do you want high Ah for distance, but less discharge rate?

Ken

It's a trade off between both.. but it also depend on teh current limit of the controller. Poor battery with high energy will often give around 60% of their capacity when discharged at normal 2 or 3C-rate.. due to their poor internal resistance... so high energy battery doen not necessarely mean more energy output... that energy in the battery must cary thru a minimal resistive path.. but if the internal resistance of the cell is too high, a big part of that energy will be lost in heat while the rest will output as electricity to the lead..

Doc

 

[itselectric]

[ Do you want high discharge with less Ah. Or do you want high Ah for distance, but less discharge rate?

Ken

It's a trade off between both.. but it also depend on teh current limit of the controller. Poor battery with high energy will often give around 60% of their capacity when discharged at normal 2 or 3C-rate.. due to their poor internal resistance... so high energy battery doen not necessarely mean more energy output... that energy in the battery must cary thru a minimal resistive path.. but if the internal resistance of the cell is too high, a big part of that energy will be lost in heat while the rest will output as electricity to the lead..

Doc

Agree with you 100%!
So, when we try to make quick judgment from the same size cell, we should look at:
1.) Ah (higher the better)
2.) c-rate (higher the better, may be?)
3.) internal resistance (low the better)

 

[steveo]

[ Do you want high discharge with less Ah. Or do you want high Ah for distance, but less discharge rate?

Ken

It's a trade off between both.. but it also depend on teh current limit of the controller. Poor battery with high energy will often give around 60% of their capacity when discharged at normal 2 or 3C-rate.. due to their poor internal resistance... so high energy battery doen not necessarely mean more energy output... that energy in the battery must cary thru a minimal resistive path.. but if the internal resistance of the cell is too high, a big part of that energy will be lost in heat while the rest will output as electricity to the lead..

Doc

Agree with you 100%!
So, when we try to make quick judgment from the same size cell, we should look at:
1.) Ah (higher the better)
2.) c-rate (higher the better, may be?)
3.) internal resistance (low the better)

I would put them in this order
Low internal resistance
Higher c rate
higher amp hour

(this way for ebike application; which generally is 10-15ah battery

 

[miro13car]

I was shocked seeing over $1500 kit motor penetrated by water just like that,
what exactely happened with that BIONX motor, was it submerged in water?
BIONX claims how rain-proof it is.
Before restoration you should concentrate on sealing this motor.
Or maybe wires installed/routed with no drip loop with water flowing right along wires into that motor?

 

[Stan]

I've got a ?BionX [/PL- 500 that stopped working. It had a blown fuse in battery box and some bad Mosfets. Console seems to work in all functions. Replaced all 12 Mosfets with IRF 3205. ] No more cogging when turning motor by hand. BionX Ca wants $500 plus $150 for shipping to repair. Do you know anyone who can repair it???

Stan
srg1939@yahoo.com

 

[trekbird]

A very nice job indeed.
Did you replace the bearings as well, if not, do you think they can be replaced? The bearings of my bionx started squeeking after 16000 km. The Trek dealer tell's me the complete motor has to be replaced.

 

[amberwolf]

They might just need to be oiled or greased, if no damage has yet been done to them.

 

[trekbird]

They might just need to be oiled or greased, if no damage has yet been done to them.

The bearing are sealed, I'm not sure they can be oiled. The dealer just offered me a new wheel at 50% discount which I accepted. Still wonder if the bearings can be replaced with a little work and without damaging the motor.

 

[amberwolf]

If you can open the motor at all, I'm sure you can replace the bearings.

Even "sealed" bearings can be oiled, as few are really sealed completely, especially as they age.

If you heat them up (leave it in the sun, use a hairdryer, etc), then immerse the bearing in oil so the seal lips are covered in it, as it cools it will suck the oil into it just a little bit. Repeat this a while and they'll be full of oil. (the same thing happens naturally with water and other liquids, which eventually displace the lubricants, causing this situation in the first place).

Alternately you can sometimes use a penknife and peel back one of the seals in a way that lets you reinstall it. Then you can actually pack good grease in there rather than oil.

 

[trekbird]

If you can open the motor at all, I'm sure you can replace the bearings.

Even "sealed" bearings can be oiled, as few are really sealed completely, especially as they age.

If you heat them up (leave it in the sun, use a hairdryer, etc), then immerse the bearing in oil so the seal lips are covered in it, as it cools it will suck the oil into it just a little bit. Repeat this a while and they'll be full of oil. (the same thing happens naturally with water and other liquids, which eventually displace the lubricants, causing this situation in the first place).

Alternately you can sometimes use a penknife and peel back one of the seals in a way that lets you reinstall it. Then you can actually pack good grease in there rather than oil.

Thanks Amberwolve, this I will try. As shown by Doctorbass it is possible to open it.

 

[brano028]

Please Doctorbass,

I see that you are an expert in this field.
I recently brought E bike (KTM E trail) with BionX 250W motor 2011y, with 37V battery ( I hope it will last for some time).
Bicycle came without G2 controller, so I am wondering could you explain how to eliminate pedal-assist drive. I would like to turn on and of motor with simple switch.
Could you explain how to hack their system and maybe take more power from it, cos I heard that those motors have limiters for speed (which is not forbidden in my country as it is in USA).

Kindly regards,
Branislav

 

[miro13car]

OK,
............
The BIONX Lithium battery only have 4 wires:

negative, Positive, and two for the temp sensor.
Doc

I hink you are not correct, you own diagram clearly shows CANBUS going to battery.
strange that nobody still not noticed.
BIONX BMS obiously must communicate with rest of system, how else display can display battery SOC?
Doctor are you there?
I think the way to go is just to replace cells not to mess up system with third-party battery unless you are talking about replacing old BIONX NMH battery with lithium.
BIONX lithium cells are pretty high quality, I am sure, DIY guy cannot get much better cells.
you must maintain CANBUS communication , no way BIONX will work with broken CUNBUS communication.
in this regard it is quite close to EPLUS ebike system which I modyfied from NMH to Lithium.

 

[supraconductor]

Hi Doctorbass,
I read with lot of interest your posts and appreciate their quaiity.
I would like to have your point of view.

Until now I installed Bionx kit on standard mountain bike frame, alloy decathlon 9.2 and now carbon Cannondale Moto 2.
I put a bions 350 HT Canbus 2010 kit on both bike but it is not enought faster for me.
I have to precise that with my weight (125kg) and size (1,98), I found no adapted product; all the ebike on the market are done for less than 100kgs.

I have the project to create an ebike with 2 bionx motors, one on front in an addition of the rear to have both fun and speed on the offroad.

I would like to adapt a bionx 350 kit for a front wheel :
- step 1, remove the axle. (question ; Do you know how to do it, I saw on your post that a motor has no axle so you have perhaps the experience or procedure to do it).
- step 2, "reduce" the size of the part where there is the 6 holes for the diskbrake
- step 3, create a new axle or adapt the bionx axle for my fork with 20QR thru-axle system
- step 4, validate the possible piloting of the both motor by only one battery and control and hère ( I woud like to have your point of view too).

Best regards

 

[tmaceng]

I have been given a pre 2009 BoinX system minus the battery.

has anyone reverse engineered the I2C bus communications to build a replacement for the battery???

Is there a pin out available for the battery mount plug on the frame?

I have found some information done years ago by a university student but his contact info seems stale. I have not heard back from him.

A dead battery I guess could be rebuilt, so on the lookout for something like that.

I2c bus to can bus converter???

any help is appreciated.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Youtube of BionX motor opened up. Doc has good pics here, so this should be the BionX motor reference thread. Here's the link from pedelecforum.de

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33uCs_awBJk

 

[quasse]

I have been given a pre 2009 BoinX system minus the battery.

has anyone reverse engineered the I2C bus communications to build a replacement for the battery???

Is there a pin out available for the battery mount plug on the frame?

I have found some information done years ago by a university student but his contact info seems stale. I have not heard back from him.

A dead battery I guess could be rebuilt, so on the lookout for something like that.

I2c bus to can bus converter???

any help is appreciated.

tmaceng, as I said in this (http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=31454) thread I've done some basic reverse engineering on the I2C protocol and have discovered the pinout for the I2C bus. I don't know about the plugs themselves, but if you open the cable up you will find black (ground), red (5V), brown (3.3V wake), green and white (I2C wires), and silver (ground? not used afaik). If you have the console and motor still, you can actually cut the I2C cables to the battery and reconstruct them to bypass the battery. The console and motor will still work fine with each other, you will just not have a battery display.

You can read my post in the linked thread for more details, and the user cormode's for more details on the I2C protocol itself.

 

[cheaptrick]

Would like to thank you for this write up. I got an 2005 250w kit going from the dead with this help!!! Well I hope still got to respoke wheel and road test.