Boeing Dreamliner Battery Fire

fechter said:
Don't those guys know what fuses are?
None of the stuff I've ever seen in aircraft bits, either stuff I've gotten from salvage yards or friends, or the stuff I worked on at Honeywell CFSG, had any kind of fuse in it--just those round pull-type circuit breakers in the panels in the cockpit, and occasionally on the equipment itself for non-critical bits. I'm sure *something* in some planes has fuses, but I haven't enough experience to say what it might be.


There are some of teh things like the dual redundant power supplies in the 737 and MD-8x series that had resistors and/or diodes obviously intended as fuses (based on failures we saw) should something go quickly seriously wrong that a circuit breaker couldn't deal with fast enough (I'm guessing), but even so they took a lot to actually blow (serious miswiring, usually, since we were doing the testing before and just after assembly into the computers). In some situations the test equipment CB popped first.
 
787 fire investigators call for disabling emergency beacon
British investigators confirmed in an interim report Thursday that the 787 fire at Heathrow on July 12 centered on a small electronic device, an Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT), and have ordered the devices disabled on all 787s pending further investigation.

The focus on a rare malfunction of this device appears to be good news for Boeing, damping fears that the fire was the result of some broader problem with the plane’s electrical systems.

The ELT, which sits in the fuselage crown just in front of the tail fin, transmits location data to satellites in the event of a crash.

The report from the U.K.’s Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) says Honeywell, which supplies the ELT, has produced some 6,000 units of the same design. They are fitted to a wide range of aircraft and the 787 fire has been “the only significant thermal event” to date.

After the control tower noticed smoke emanating from the plane, firefighters rushed to the aircraft and, entering through a passenger door, “encountered thick smoke” that became denser as they moved to the rear of the aircraft.

“At the rear of the passenger cabin, they observed indications of fire above the ceiling panels,” the report states.

They initially tried to extinguish the fire with a handheld halon fire extinguisher. When this proved ineffective, the firefighters ripped out a ceiling panel and doused the fire with water from hoses.

The AAIB report notes that because commercial airliners “do not typically carry the means of fire detection or suppression in the space above the cabin ceilings … had this event occurred in flight it could pose a significant safety concern and raise challenges for the cabin crew in tackling the resulting fire.”

The AAIB recommended that the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) instruct airlines operating the 787 to disable the ELT boxes “until appropriate airworthiness actions can be completed.”

There are also separate, portable ELTs in the emergency slides that deploy as life rafts if the plane goes down in water.
AAIB spokesman Sam Bond said these are not covered by the safety recommendation and won’t have to be disabled.

The UK agency also suggested the FAA review the safety of the ELT devices in other aircraft types.

Boeing said it supports the AAIB’s recommendations, calling them “reasonable precautionary measures to take as the investigation proceeds.”

The ELT boxes contain a set of small lithium-manganese batteries.

“Detailed examination of the ELT has shown some indications of disruption to the battery cells,” the report states. “It is not clear however, whether the combustion in the area of the ELT was initiated by a release of energy within the batteries or by an external mechanism such as an electrical short.”

“In the case of an electrical short, the same batteries could provide the energy for an ignition and suffer damage in the subsequent fire.”

The report states that the aircraft was unpowered at the time the fire broke out. Although it was connected to a ground power source, this source was switched off.

Besides the ELT, the report concludes, “there are no other aircraft systems in this vicinity which, with the aircraft unpowered, contain stored energy capable of initiating a fire in the area of heat damage.”

Boeing spokesman Marc Birtel said the ELT is powered entirely by its battery and that the only connection to the airplane is a wire to the flight deck to turn it on or off.

“It does not receive power from the airplane,” Birtel said.

Birtel also said that ”we have seen failures of other types of ELTs in the past that resulted in varying but lesser degrees of heat damage.”

A check of the FAA database that records in-service incidents affecting planes operated by U.S. airlines found 10 ELT incidents involving Boeing jets and four involving Airbus jets.

However, all of those incidents were minor. The ELTs malfunctioned or were broken and had to be replaced, but there was no mention of heat damage.

The report also seems to indicate that, despite what looked like gaping holes in the fuselage crown on TV pictures of the event, the fire did not in fact completely burn through the top of the airplane fuselage.

There is no mention in the description of damage to the aircraft of any holes. Instead, the report refers only to “blackened and peeling paint and damage to the composite structure.”

TV pictures showed clearly the pattern of frames and stiffeners showing beneath the skin, but it may be that these were visible only as areas of varying scorch marks rather than through a hole in the skin.

Nevertheless, the composite skin above the fire — from the photos, an area approximately 8 feet long by 2 feet wide — is clearly badly damaged and will have to somehow be replaced.
http://blogs.seattletimes.com/today/2013/07/787-fire-centered-on-emergency-beacon-investigators-say/
 
Why?

Luggage compartment, areas carrying fuel lines, areas near fuel storage, engines etc. All obvious places to expect potential fires.

I've yet to see a house with smoke detectors or a sprinkler system in the roof.

*All* designs are a compromise. Let's not fall into the trap of being Captain Hindsight ;)
 
A Japan Airlines 787 Dreamliner flying from Boston to Tokyo turned around not long after taking off and is headed back to Boston:

Japan Airlines flight JL7 (B787 Dreamliner Boston-Tokyo) just made a U-turn over Canada http://t.co/EtbHa7TQA8 pic.twitter.com/Yoi5Wl0FDS

— Flightradar24.com (@flightradar24) July 18, 2013
The airline's website says the Boeing jet is returning to the airport "due to aircraft maintenance."
Japan Airlines: Right now, the plane is in a holding airport, possibly waiting for other traffic to clear out. It could also be dumping fuel, to make landing safer.

According to NYC Aviation, the issue has to do with the plane's fuel pump, and is not an emergency:
Multiple sources now reporting that JAL 7 is returning to Boston due to a fuel pump issue. No emergency declared, just a precaution.

— NYCAviation (@NYCAviation) July 18, 2013
Boston Logan Airport confirmed the premature return is a precaution:

JAL 007 maintenance message indicator light resulted in a precautionary return to BOS. Flight has landed and is taxiing to gate.

— Boston Logan Airport (@BostonLogan) July 18, 2013
The plane has now landed safely in Boston:

Electric fuel pump no doubt. There must be some guys at Boeing hating life right now.
 
Punx0r said:
Why?
I've yet to see a house with smoke detectors or a sprinkler system in the roof.
:shock:
Why ?... smoke = warm/hot air = rises to the highest point in a confined space. = good place to put you smoke detector.
Ever seen the videos of a fire in a plane cabin. ?
ALL my houses have had smoke detectors on the ceilings , roof beams, etc.
Where else do you install sprinklers except on the roof ( ceiling ) ??
 
If smoke is rising through the cabin then a smoke detector in the cavity above the cabin will be a little redundant ;)

I didn't mean put sprinkers/detectors on the ceiling, I meant in the roofspace i.e. in the roof trusses. That space which is normally just full of fibreglass insulation, spiders and maybe the odd piece of household junk.
 
There have been at least a few fires in roof spaces over the decades that weren't even known to the crews until after enough smoke built up to enter the cabin, except that either breakers popped or systems stopped responding/working, but the crew had no way to know why, at least at first.

Since there was no way for anyone onboard to reach them to put htem out, at least one forced a landing, I think another caused a crash (don't remmeber if everyone died or just some). I don't remmeber the results of any others.

I suspect that if there had been warning as soon as the fire started (or at least made enough smoke to be detected by something near it rather than by crew), maybe some of those crews could've done something about it--at least turned around in time to not crash-land or crash.

If there were fire suppression equipment up there, it would help, too.


Re: same stuff in homes: I don't know of any homes with such in them either, and nothing I've ever seen here in Phoenix or other places i've lived have had sprinklers in homes, only buisnesses. I wish they did have them--it might have saved my dogs (probably not, but....).


If there were suppression equipment in all the places fire could proceed thru or start in, lots of fires would never get to the point a fire department would even have to show up to control it--they'd be stopped at their sources. Of course, that would increase costs and complexity of homes/etc dramatically, so it's unlikely to ever happen en-masse, only for those that choose to build it in themsevles.
 
I know I keep banging this drum, but it's a fallacy to assume that any kind of failure was obvious and the designers overlooked it because they are idiots...

Engineers could happily and easily design you a plan where every possible failure mode would be prevented, but it wouldn't fly. Chances are it wouldn't have any moving parts and would be bolted to the ground...
 
Highly qualified engineers are generally good at what they were trained to do. Professional managers aren't necessarily good at anything, and it would be ignoring the data to suggest they are usually good at managing. Furthermore, some of those qualified engineers get promoted to engineering management positions for which they have no demonstrated ability.

Today's corporate culture is such that the folks with the most intimate practical knowledge of the systems being developed often can't get their legitimate technical concerns heard by those with the power to make decisions about those systems. And then when they are heard, other organizational or self-promotional issues often take precedence over technical matters.

I'd be surprised to learn that the troubles with the Dreamliner boil down to something other than essentially what I am describing.
 
Punx0r said:
If smoke is rising through the cabin then a smoke detector in the cavity above the cabin will be a little redundant ;)

I didn't mean put sprinkers/detectors on the ceiling, I meant in the roofspace i.e. in the roof trusses. That space which is normally just full of fibreglass insulation, spiders and maybe the odd piece of household junk.
In an aircraft, most of the electricals and services, are run in the cavities between the outer fuselage and the interior cabin trim.
If there is going to be a "thermal event" or smoke, then those spaces would be the logical place to have heat , smoke, or gas detectors. In aviation terms, these systems are simple and cheap and could be installed in numbers.with centralized monitoring.
They are already used extensively to monitor the engine, landing gear, and other mechanical systems....why not for passenger areas also ?
And no, i was not suggesting sprinkler systems.. but maybe Haylon or dry powder in critical points ?
 
Dreamliner Returns, And Boeing Is Watching Its Every Move

For once a positive article...

NPR said:
Aviation experts continue to follow up on a number of recent accidents and incidents: the Asiana crash, a botched landing by a Southwest jet and problems with an emergency beacon on a Boeing 787.

The entire fleet of 787s was grounded earlier this year for battery problems. Now, the Dreamliners are back in service and Boeing is monitoring them around the clock.

There are tens of thousands of things that can be measured and tracked on Boeing's new flagship jet, and that's just what they're doing inside the company's 787 Operations Control Center in Everett, Wash.

Boeing Vice President Mike Fleming, is giving a rare tour of the facility. He points to two giant maps showing the location each 787 currently in flight. The maps also show the planes' speed and altitude.

But there is much more. Boeing has delivered about 70 Dreamliners so far. Equipped with highly sophisticated on-board monitoring systems, the planes send back massive amounts of information while in the air. Computer software sifts thru the data and anomalies or potential problems pop up in yellow or red on giant computer screens.

"So a red item ... [means] there is a maintenance action that needs to go out and be cleared on the airplane before you have it depart," Fleming explains.

In other words, the part will have to be replaced or a system fixed before the plane can take off again. Most of these are pretty minor issues, but they still have to be addressed. The goal is to do it as quickly as possible. Delays and cancelled flights make passengers unhappy and cost the airlines a lot of money.

With real-time monitoring, Boeing and the airlines are more likely to have replacement parts on hand even before the plane lands. That job falls to Andy Beadle, a procurement agent at Boeing.

"Getting a head start on things, it's kind of a dream come true because I get four or five hours that I normally never got in the past," Beadle says.

Overall, Boeing says it can offer a level of customer support it couldn't deliver before. In an extreme case — Mike Flemming says he can think of three such instances — Boeing experts talked directly to pilots who had questions while in flight.

"I think it's made a difference every single time," he says, "in terms of the level of understanding that we gave the pilots in terms of what they were seeing on the airplane [and] their level of comfort with the aircraft. In every one of those cases the airplane went on and did a normal landing."

Monitoring an airplane while in flight is nothing new, but the sophistication here— and the amount of data being reviewed is. United Airlines, the only U.S. airline currently flying the 787, is pleased.

"Boeing created the aircraft, they designed it [and] they know it from the inside out, so it helps to have both of us monitoring it at the same time," said United Airlines spokeswoman Christen David.

What's more, since Boeing can track data from every flight simultaneously in real time, the airplane maker can spot trends or problems across the entire fleet much sooner. That is especially important when a new plane like the 787 goes into service.

The future of Tech Support is here. I like it! 8)
Making reservations, KF
 
Jan. 14, 2014, 11:35 a.m. EST
Boeing shares drop on reported 787 battery problem
SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- Boeing Co. (NYSE:BA) shares fell as much as 1.7% Tuesday on a report that Japan Airlines detected smoke from a battery pack onboard a Boeing 787 aircraft on the ground at Tokyo's Narita airport. According to Reuters, maintenance workers discovered smoke and an unidentified liquid coming from the battery about two hours before the plane was scheduled to take off. Airline officials said alarms in the cockpit indicated faults with the power pack and its charger, though no other equipment was affected by the incident. The incident comes about a year after problems with a lithium-ion battery pack on a Japan Airlines 787 at Boston's Logan airport, which prompted aviation officials to ground the new airliners until Boeing convinced them the batteries posed no danger.
 
Air accident investigators in London said on Saturday that a fire inside a parked Boeing 787 Dreamliner on Friday did not appear to be caused by any problems with the plane’s lithium-ion batteries.
That finding was a relief to Boeing and the 13 airlines that own the planes, which were grounded for four months worldwide this year after two episodes involving fire or smoke from the batteries.

But independent experts said it was hard to understand what could have caused heat intense enough to sear the carbon-composite skin on the top of the jet, leaving the possibility that Boeing could still face a setback if problems are found with another system on the plane.

Britain’s Air Accidents Investigation Branch, which is in charge of the inquiry, said in a statement Saturday that it was still trying to identify the cause of the fire, which occurred on an unoccupied Ethiopian Airlines 787 at Heathrow Airport. The statement said that the fire resulted in smoke throughout the plane and extensive heat damage in the upper part of the rear fuselage. But, the investigation branch said, the damage was not near either of the plane’s lithium-ion batteries. “At this stage,” the statement said, “there is no evidence of a direct causal relationship” between the batteries and the fire.

The regulator said its initial inquiry would most likely take several days. Other safety experts said the causes could include heated elements left in a galley just below where the fire burned the jet’s carbon-composite skin, a poorly installed part, or a short in the plane’s electrical system.

But given all the fire-retardant materials in the plane, Hans J. Weber, an aviation consultant at Tecop International in San Diego, said it was puzzling how the fire could have gotten hot enough to cause so much damage to the plane, which had been parked on the runway for eight hours.

The innovative planes were grounded in mid-January after the incidents involving fire or smoke coming from the new and more volatile type of batteries. Boeing and its suppliers have invested more than $20 billion in the Dreamliner, which use lightweight carbon materials and more efficient engines to cut operating costs by some 20 percent. Boeing expects to sell thousands of planes over the next two decades. The first 50 planes delivered began flying again between late April to early June after regulators approved a series of fixes, including adding insulation between the battery cells and encasing the batteries in a steel box.

Ethiopian Airlines said on Saturday that it was continuing to fly its other 787s because the fire at Heathrow occurred after the jet had been on the ground for eight hours and “was not related to flight safety.” The airline did not speculate on the cause of the fire.

United Airlines and 11 foreign carriers also have the planes, and several said on Saturday that they continued to fly them as the fire at Heathrow is investigated.

The fire caused no injuries, but it disrupted travel. Boeing’s shares had rallied in recent weeks, but investors reacted nervously on Friday, sending Boeing’s shares down 4.7 percent.

Smoke came from the plane, named the Queen of Sheba, about four and a half hours before it was scheduled to depart for Ethiopia. The plane was connected to an external ground power source, according to people briefed on the episode.

It was also not clear if any maintenance was under way or how long the fire had been burning, though it was intense enough to burn the top of the fuselage near the tail. That area is in a complex section where large parts of the plane are joined together.

The two lithium-ion batteries, which are lighter and generate more energy than conventional batteries, are under the cockpit and just behind the wings toward the bottom of the plane.

Safety experts said that some of the wiring in the plane’s new electrical system, which is more extensive than in other jets, would have passed through the damaged area, which was above the rear galley. It was also possible the fire migrated from another system or part of the plane.

The Financial Times quoted an Ethiopian manager in Britain as saying that maintenance workers had discovered a problem with the plane’s air-conditioning system during a routine inspection and had seen sparks but no flames. The report did not say when the inspection occurred, and aviation-safety officials in the United States were not sure what to make of it.

Thomson Airways, a charter airline in England, said on Saturday that it had replaced and tested several parts on a 787 that had cut short a flight on Friday. It said the plane would fly again on Sunday.

A team from Boeing was at the Heathrow site along with representatives from the airline and from two American government agencies, the Federal Aviation Administration and the National Transportation Safety Board.

Boeing and the two agencies had no comment Saturday on the possible cause of the fire, deferring to British investigators.

The 787 has had a history of mishaps since entering service in late 2011. Several airlines, including United, Qatar Airways and All Nippon Airlines, have been forced to divert flights because of electrical problems or other reasons. The airlines worry that all the problems could require more fixes or make passengers reluctant to fly on the plane.
 
..... it was hard to understand what could have caused heat intense enough to sear the carbon-composite skin on the top of the jet,

:shock: What do you do with a composite fuselage once a portion has been hot enough to .." sear the carbon-composite skin" ?
do they "patch it" or what ?
Doesnt seem as easy as replacing a alloy skin panel on a conventional aircraft fuselage!
 
FILE - In this Jan. 24, 2013 file photo National Transportation Safety Board's (NTSB) Joseph Kolly, holds an fire-damaged battery casing from the Japan Airlines Boeing 787 Dreamliner that caught fire at Logan International Airport in Boston, at the NTSB laboratory in Washington. A report by federal accident investigators points to a manufacturing defect as the likely cause of an internal short circuit that led to a battery fire in a Boeing 787 airliner parked at Boston's airport last year. The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) report released Monday says an inspection of the manufacturing plant in Japan where the battery was made found that flaws and debris in lithium-ion aircraft batteries were going undetected. (AP Photo/Manuel Balce Ceneta, File)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gz3hCqjk4yc "lipo fire porn"

Eye Opening !! Amazing how sloppy mfg almost crashed an airliner.What are the chances now for all our batteries having these kind of defects. Can we isolate these defects in our batteries by examination and analysis?
 
chessir said:
..... Can we isolate these defects in our batteries by examination and analysis?
There are lots of tests you could do..
Thermal response
Self discharge time
Short discharge time
Voltage/current relationship
Internal resistance at multiple states of charge
Visual defects
X Ray inspection etc etc
In each case you would need some "standard" to reference/comparison for it to be useful.

Modern manufacturing standards dictate that the manufacturer should do all the testing necessary to enable sound quality control and ensure a product is "fit for purpose" .
 
Hillhater said:
chessir said:
..... Can we isolate these defects in our batteries by examination and analysis?
There are lots of tests you could do..
Thermal response
Self discharge time
Short discharge time
Voltage/current relationship
Internal resistance at multiple states of charge
Visual defects
X Ray inspection etc etc
In each case you would need some "standard" to reference/comparison for it to be useful.

Modern manufacturing standards dictate that the manufacturer should do all the testing necessary to enable sound quality control and ensure a product is "fit for purpose" .

you can google and read the report that came out today. a summary:

Early in the investigation, the NTSB said that the fire began after one of the battery's eight cells experienced an internal short circuit leading to thermal runaway of the cell, which propagated to the remaining cells causing full battery thermal runaway. This condition caused smoke and flammable materials to be ejected outside the battery's case and resulted in excessive heat and a small fire.

"The investigation identified deficiencies in the design and certification processes that should have prevented an outcome like this," said NTSB Acting Chairman Christopher A. Hart. "Fortunately, this incident occurred while the airplane was on the ground and with firefighters immediately available."

Because the APU and main lithium-ion batteries installed on the 787 represented new technology not adequately addressed by existing regulations, the Federal Aviation Administration required that Boeing demonstrate compliance with special conditions to ensure that the battery was safe for use on a transport category aircraft.

Investigators said that Boeing's safety assessment of the battery, which was part of the data used to demonstrate compliance with these special conditions, was insufficient because Boeing had considered, but ruled out, cell-to-cell propagation of thermal runaway (which occurred in this incident) but did not provide the corresponding analysis and justification in the safety assessment. As a result, the potential for cell-to-cell propagation of thermal runaway was not thoroughly scrutinized by Boeing and FAA engineers, ultimately allowing this safety hazard to go undetected by the certification process.

As a result of its findings, the NTSB is recommending that the FAA improve the guidance and training provided to industry and FAA certification engineers on safety assessments and methods of compliance for designs involving new technology.

"Through comprehensive incident investigations like this one, safety deficiencies can be uncovered and addressed before they lead to more serious consequences in less benign circumstances," said Hart."

NTSB investigators also identified a number of design and manufacturing concerns that could have led to internal short circuiting within a cell.

As a result of the investigation, the NTSB made 15 safety recommendations to the FAA, two to Boeing, and one to GS Yuasa.
 
In summary, they just discovered lipo!

If they were so sloppy with aircraft batteries then non-aircraft batteries suffer worse conditions?
 
The NTSB determines that the probable cause of this incident was an internal short circuit within a cell of the APU lithium-ion battery,...
Interesting choice of wording .."probable cause" in the NTSB report...not very conclusive.
The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) report released Monday says an inspection of the manufacturing plant in Japan where the battery was made found that flaws and debris in lithium-ion aircraft batteries were going undetected.
..flaws and debris maybe, but any actual internal shorts ?

..especially after the lack of prior evidence of any such failure !
In the second day of hearings the GS Yuasa representative mentioned that they have built over 14,000 cells since 2001 and have never seen an internal short...
 
Hillhater said:
The NTSB determines that the probable cause of this incident was an internal short circuit within a cell of the APU lithium-ion battery,...
Interesting choice of wording .."probable cause" in the NTSB report...not very conclusive.
The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) report released Monday says an inspection of the manufacturing plant in Japan where the battery was made found that flaws and debris in lithium-ion aircraft batteries were going undetected.
..flaws and debris maybe, but any actual internal shorts ?

..especially after the lack of prior evidence of any such failure !
In the second day of hearings the GS Yuasa representative mentioned that they have built over 14,000 cells since 2001 and have never seen an internal short...

How big are these cells? 14,000 cells seems like a pittance for a battery manufacturer. You'd imagine they pump out that many in a few hours.

Justin is right in his critique of large format cells. There is a reason why the likes of Tesla and Panasonic choose the small cylindrical formats. Spotting a bad battery is a much simpler task for quality control.

It also seems like someone owes the French an apology. :mrgreen:
 
Joseph C. said:
How big are these cells? 14,000 cells seems like a pittance for a battery manufacturer. You'd imagine they pump out that many in a few hours.

Justin is right in his critique of large format cells. There is a reason why the likes of Tesla and Panasonic choose the small cylindrical formats. Spotting a bad battery is a much simpler task for quality control.

It also seems like someone owes the French an apology. :mrgreen:
they are 65 Ahr cells.
Low production numbers as they are specialized and mainly for aerospace use ( NASA certified ! ?)
 
Hillhater said:
they are 65 Ahr cells.
Low production numbers as they are specialized and mainly for aerospace use ( NASA certified ! ?)

That is a monster cell. It must be incredibly difficult to detect a defect using conventional practices. I can't imagine checking voltage would be any help.

Although if you are only making just over a thousand of them a year it should be easy enough to do measure the coulombic efficiency of at least one per batch. Whether GS YUASA have that type of testing in place is another matter. Actually you could probably perform ten cycles on each cell at that production volume and that would practically guarantee bad cells would never reach the client.
 
There is an interesting discussion on the DIY Electric Car, Battery forum, where it is suggested the charge system was based on an old NiCad design..with no cut off, such that these cells were being constantly held "on charge" at 4.0 volts by the on board APU !
Hard to accept that could be the case, or that there was no mention of it in the final report ,...since it would be a much higher risk potential than a "probable" short !
 
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