Boeing Dreamliner Battery Fire

Leon Musk's take on the battery issues:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/elon-musk-boeing-787-battery-fundamentally-unsafe-381627/
I think he's got a real point, small format cells are inherently safer unless you can eliminate all possible manufacturing defects from the large cells.
 
More detail seeping out slowly !..

....According to investigators in Japan, the battery on the jet that made the emergency landing showed a stable reading of 31 volts, near its full charge capacity, until 15 minutes into the flight when pilots detected a strange smell. About that time, sensors detected a sudden unstable discharge of the battery to near zero for reasons that Japanese investigators still cannot explain......
Conflicts with other statements about the cells being fully charged after the "event"?
But if one cell went down "OC" then the pack would indicate "0" volts, but with 7 cells still fully charged ?
Didnt they have cell level logging on these packs ??

....... Officials at All Nippon Airways, the jets’ biggest operator, said in an interview on Tuesday that it had replaced 10 of the batteries in the months before fire and smoke in two cases caused regulators around the world to ground the jets.

The airline said it had told Boeing of the replacements as they occurred but had not been required to report them to safety regulators because no flights were canceled or delayed. National Transportation Safety Board officials said Tuesday that the replacements were now part of their inquiry.

The airline also, for the first time, explained the extent of the previous problems, which underscore the volatile nature of the batteries and add to concerns over whether Boeing and other plane manufacturers will be able to use the batteries safely.

In five of the 10 replacements, All Nippon said that the main battery had showed an unexpectedly low charge. An unexpected drop in a 787’s main battery also occurred on the All Nippon flight that had to make an emergency landing in Japan on Jan. 16.

The airline also revealed that in three instances, the main battery failed to operate normally and had to be replaced along with the charger. In other cases, one battery showed an error reading and another, used to start the auxiliary power unit, failed. All the events occurred from May to December of last year. And all the batteries were returned to their maker, GS Yuasa.
 
From that "Flightglobal" article....
...Mike Sinnett, Boeing's 787 chief project engineer, explained the careful design philosophy employed for the 787's battery system, the first to serve as a starter for an auxiliary power unit and emergency power back-up in a commercial aircraft.

"I design a cell to not fail and then assume it will and the ask the next 'what-if' questions," Sinnett said. "And then I design the batteries that if there is a failure of one cell it won't propagate to another. And then I assume that I am wrong and that it will propagate to antoher and then I design the enclosure and the redundancy of the equipment to assume that all the cells are involved and the airplane needs to be able to play through that."

Well, at least we now know who will be looking for a new job very soon ! :lol:
 
An engineer who thinks he can design a system that never fails is a bad/naive engineer. Analogous to a software engineer who thinks he can design/write a bug free application.
 
The article on elon musk was great, but elon didnt engineer the battery. JB Straubel (stanford solar car team) and other engineers spent two years blowing up 18650 cells and small packs in JB's driveway before they even attempted to build a full size pack. Then they used an outide firm to perform a thousand tests trying to induce thermal runaway (domino effect)

This was all before elon even arrived on the scene. Now of course they can do all that in house. They have made improvement since elon arrived, the biggest being gluing/sealing the cells in the holder/spacer such that only a small part of the terminal is exposed. This seals the area the only area the cell can leak gas (even if only insanely small amounts over years) and communicate with ambient air

Prismatics are more likely to leak as the pouch seal is normally poor and then they fold the edge to stop shorts only making the seal worse. Im talking every cell on a long timeline. Or a short timeline witha small defect or environmental accelerated degradation (atmos pressure. Temp expand compress vibration etc

Even if only a minute leak
all prismatics tend to leak at terminal exit throught the pouch where to pouch has to conform to the lead but cant make a 90 degree bends to seal the tiny "corners" up over and down the lead

--------
http://seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/2020241385_787deadbatteriesxml.html?prmid=4939

Boeing had numerous reliability issues with the main batteries on its 787 Dreamliner long before the two battery incidents this month grounded the entire fleet.

More than 100 of the lithium-ion batteries have failed and had to be returned to the Japanese manufacturer, according to a person inside the 787 program with direct knowledge.

“We have had at least 100, possibly approaching 150, bad batteries so far,” the person said. “It’s common.”

-----
Wanna bet yuasa just reset the lvc breaker on the "bricked" packs and returned the pack to service rather than scrap them as intended
Saving money because well the cells looked good
These "reworked packs" could be the cause

Also bet the self discharge of an battery is extremley high due to the redundant and complicated battery murdering system with no storage mode
The packs probably have to be constantly trickle charged
This makes maintenance a nightmare and storage

The battery also appears vastly undersized given it can run down in under an hour from only one fuel gauge system activated (meaning the fuel gauge system is tied to a bigger master control system rather than being able to function alone
 
Hillhater said:
....According to investigators in Japan, the battery on the jet that made the emergency landing showed a stable reading of 31 volts, near its full charge capacity, until 15 minutes into the flight when pilots detected a strange smell. About that time, sensors detected a sudden unstable discharge of the battery to near zero for reasons that Japanese investigators still cannot explain......
Conflicts with other statements about the cells being fully charged after the "event"?
My guess is that this means the monitoring system connections were either shorted or broken by the fire. If the solder to the wiring (or to a resistor, diode, or other component on a PCB) melted from the heat and disconnected, it might happen in a way that causes "unstable" readings that look like a discharge curve as teh connection's resistance dramatically increases, or as it begins arcing if it is shorting (beofre the wire burns thru or melts at a soldered connection point and falls off).

But without more information, we can't make very reliable guesses.


Didnt they have cell level logging on these packs ??
Apparently not, or they would have known (and probably published) the pack's balance information.


Based on the other new data on the prior problems with the packs of "unexpectedly low pack voltage", it sounds like there is a definite problem with the packs in some way. Whether that is a monitoring issue with BMS not cutting off discharge correctly, or maybe not even being designed to do so on a cell-level LVC or whatever, or an issue with the cells themselves being unable to meet the power demands without discharging too far or too quickly, or heating too much, and then fast recharging of them causing further heating...I dunno. Just not enough information.
 
January 29, 2013
Boeing Battery Was a Concern Before Failure
By CHRISTOPHER DREW, HIROKO TABUCHI and JAD MOUAWAD
Even before two battery failures led to the grounding of all Boeing 787 jets this month, the lithium-ion batteries used on the aircraft had experienced multiple problems that raised questions about their reliability.

Officials at All Nippon Airways, the jets’ biggest operator, said in an interview on Tuesday that it replaced 10 of the batteries in the months before fire in one plane and smoke in another led regulators around the world to ground the jets.

The airline said it told Boeing of the replacements as they occurred but was not required to report them to safety regulators because they were not considered a safety issue and no flights were canceled or delayed.

National Transportation Safety Board officials said Tuesday that their inquiry would include the replacements.

The airline also, for the first time, explained the extent of the previous problems, which underscore the volatile nature of the batteries and add to concerns over whether Boeing and other plane manufacturers will be able to use the batteries safely.

In five of the 10 replacements, All Nippon said that the main battery had showed an unexpectedly low charge. An unexpected drop in a 787’s main battery also occurred on the All Nippon flight that had to make an emergency landing in Japan on Jan. 16.

The airline also revealed that in three instances, the main battery had failed to start normally and had had to be replaced, along with the charger. In other cases, one battery showed an error reading and another, used to start the auxiliary power unit, failed. All of the events occurred from May to December of last year. The malfunctioning batteries, made by the Japanese manufacturer GS Yuasa, were serviced by All Nippon maintenance crew members.

Japan Airlines, which operates seven 787s, said Wednesday that there had been “several cases” in which maintenance crew members needed to replace 787 batteries after irregularities, but the carrier declined to give details. The switches were not considered a safety risk and were conducted “within the scope of regular maintenance,” said Kazunori Kidosaki, a company spokesman.

Kelly Nantel, a spokeswoman for the National Transportation Safety Board, said investigators had only recently heard that there had been “numerous issues with the use of these batteries” on 787s. She said the board had asked Boeing, All Nippon and other airlines for information about the problems.

“That will absolutely be part of the investigation,” she said.

Boeing, based in Chicago, has said repeatedly that any problems with the batteries can be contained without threatening the planes and their passengers.

Boeing officials said the need to replace the batteries also suggested that safeguards were activated to prevent overheating and keep the drained batteries from being recharged. Company officials said the batteries can drain too deeply if left on without being connected to power sources. Trying to recharge such batteries could generate excessive heat, so safety mechanisms lock out any attempts to do that.

Boeing officials said that improperly connecting a battery can also render it unusable. And they acknowledged that some of the new batteries were not lasting as long as intended. They said that could cause airlines to replace them more frequently but did not pose a safety problem.

A GS Yuasa official, Tsutomu Nishijima, said battery exchanges were part of the normal operations of a plane but would not comment further.

The Federal Aviation Administration decided in 2007 to allow Boeing to use the lithium-ion batteries instead of older, more stable types as long as it took safety measures to prevent or contain a fire. But once Boeing put in those safeguards, it did not revisit its basic design even as more evidence surfaced of the risks involved, regulators said.

In a little-noticed test in 2010, the F.A.A. found that the kind of lithium-ion chemistry that Boeing planned to use — lithium cobalt — was the most flammable of several possible types. The test found that batteries of that type provided the most power, but could also overheat more quickly.

In 2011, a lithium-ion battery on a Cessna business jet started smoking while it was being charged, prompting Cessna to switch to traditional nickel-cadmium batteries.

The safety board said Tuesday that it had still not determined what caused a fire on Jan. 7 on a Japan Airlines 787 that was parked at Logan Airport in Boston. The fire occurred nine days before an All Nippon jet made its emergency landing after pilots smelled smoke in the cockpit.

Federal regulators said it was also possible that flaws in the manufacturing process could have gone undetected and caused the recent incidents.

The batteries’ maker X-rays each battery before shipping to look for possible defects.

But some battery experts said that scans might be unable to detect minute anomalies in the battery, like trapped micro-shavings in any of the tightly wound conductive material used in each battery’s eight cells.

So far, Boeing appears reluctant to consider alternatives. Lithium-ion, experts say, is particularly attractive because it packs more power in a smaller size, and is therefore lighter than more traditional battery designs — a factor that was part of Boeing’s strategy to build a lighter aircraft. Also for that reason, it is now widely used in personal electronics and is finding greater acceptance in other industries.

But unless investigators can point out the precise cause of the 787’s battery problems or how to prevent them, some experts believe Boeing may have little choice than to pick more traditional battery designs to restore confidence in its airplanes.

Switching batteries would come at a steep cost, and would most likely entail months of engineering work as well as new certification by regulators. It would also go against the efforts by other manufacturers, including Airbus and Gulfstream, to adopt lithium-ion batteries in airplanes.

Regulators have long known about the risks of lithium-ion batteries, which can overheat and ignite — a condition known as thermal runaway — if improperly charged or discharged. For that reason, the batteries are integrated into a sophisticated electronic system that is intended to monitor the battery and prevent it from overcharging.

The F.A.A.’s battery tests in 2010 highlighted the hazards of lithium cobalt batteries. When they overheat, the batteries showed “much more severe increases in temperature and pressure” than other battery types.

Another risk of lithium batteries also became apparent with the Cessna episode in 2011, when a technician working on a new model plane, the CJ4, hooked up the plane to a power source to recharge the battery and soon after saw smoke coming out of it.

According to a government safety official with knowledge of the episode, the Cessna battery had drained below 5 percent of its charge. The problem with lithium batteries, however, is that recharging a battery that has been drained to a low point can create a risk of fire because the battery is unable to accept a charge. Recharging it then creates heat that can cause it to ignite.

But after discussions with the F.A.A., Cessna decided to replace the battery on its planes with nickel cadmium batteries, which are heavier, but do not ignite easily. Boeing has said its system has safeguards that prevent a drained battery from being recharged without first being sent back to the manufacturer for reconditioning.

A Cessna spokesman declined to comment about the episode.

According to investigators in Japan, the battery on the jet that made the emergency landing showed a stable reading of 31 volts, near its full charge capacity, until 15 minutes into the flight when pilots detected a strange smell. About that time, sensors detected a sudden unstable discharge of the battery to near zero for reasons that Japanese investigators still cannot explain.

Matthew L. Wald contributed reporting.
 
Oh Fechter, this is rich.

We cobble low quality hobbyking packs together and deal with puffy cells, mismatched cells, and deal with those issues and understand that what we're dealing with is dangerous and generally discourage anyone from selling premade packs or even using these.. because we are concerned with the community and don't want people dyin' 'n stuff.

Meanwhile, at a large fortune 500 company that sells the highest liability form of transport ever... :lol: :lol: :lol: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I think the comment about one of our members creating better battery packs in our kitchens would be accurate.
 
neptronix said:
Oh Fechter, this is rich.

We cobble low quality hobbyking packs together and deal with puffy cells, mismatched cells, and deal with those issues and understand that what we're dealing with is dangerous and generally discourage anyone from selling premade packs or even using these.. because we are concerned with the community and don't want people dyin' 'n stuff.

Meanwhile, at a large fortune 500 company that sells the highest liability form of transport ever... :lol: :lol: :lol: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I think the comment about one of our members creating better battery packs in our kitchens would be accurate.

They made a lot of tools to help keep the rc lipo from burning.

Watching a Hyperion 1420 hooked up to a big lcd screen every charge really lets one keep track of a packs condition.

A good human bms is hard to beat so we help each other in our quests to become a better bms. :)
 
the problem i have been able to tease out of the press releases is that the BMS allows the cells to drop to very low voltage and then allows the charger to charge at very high rates.

this is known to cause the plating of the lithium onto the carbon and repeated cycles of low voltage/high charging rates is provoking the breakdown of the SEI layer and initiating the thermal runaway.

i bet they end up qualifying a lifepo4 pack made up of cylindrical cells to get around the problems of thermal runaway.

it is amazing that this did not turn up in the development of these packs. i wonder if the guys who did the work may have suppressed or hidden some of their lab data. that would be bad.
 
This isn't a car or bike we're discussing. If they use cylindrical cells, single cell ruptures will still keep planes on the ground, even if they don't cause whole batteries to burn down. The per-cell reliability has to become so much better that it more than offsets the much larger number of cells available to suffer a failure.
 
Chalo said:
This isn't a car or bike we're discussing. If they use cylindrical cells, single cell ruptures will still keep planes on the ground, even if they don't cause whole batteries to burn down. The per-cell reliability has to become so much better that it more than offsets the much larger number of cells available to suffer a failure.
The 18650's that Tesla uses have multiple internal protection to prevent catastrophic cell failure, so a single cell failures may still occur, but a ruptured cell would be highly unusual ( ??)
If they were to be using something like a 8s,20p pack,..the loss of one or two cells would only be a minimal capacity loss. It could be detected by a good monitoring system, but would not be a "show stopper".
No more significant than the capacity loss on a AGM/SLA cell after a few cycles.

Do we know of any data about cell reliability for the quality 18650's ( or 26650's ) ?
 
Well now it seems the Dreamliners are still grounded...BUT their battery packs can fly again ??? :shock:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/03/boeing-dreamliner-batteries_n_2610986.html
Dreamliners worldwide were grounded nearly three weeks ago after lithium ion batteries that are part of the planes led to a fire in one plane and smoke in a second. But new rules exempt aircraft batteries from the ban on large lithium ion batteries as cargo on flights by passenger planes.
In effect, that means the Dreamliner's batteries are now allowed to fly only if they're not attached to a Dreamliner...

....The new rules allow the shipment of lithium ion batteries weighing as much as 77 pounds, but only if they are aircraft batteries. Shipments of other lithium ion batteries greater than 11 pounds are still prohibited. The 787's two batteries weigh 63 pounds each. It's the first airliner to make extensive use of lithium ion batteries, which weigh less and store more power than other batteries of a similar size.

The aircraft battery exemption was created for the convenience of the airline industry, which wants to be able to quickly ship replacement batteries to planes whose batteries are depleted or have failed. Sometimes it's faster to do that using a passenger plane....
 
Thanks for that new info hill hater. They are still not demonstrating the differences of the various lithium chemistries. it has become very clear that many decision makers are not qualified to specify the best choice of chemistry. The big tip off is they refer to lithium ion. Without indicating anything about the chemistry. All they would need is a half hour conversation with most ES members. Shameful ignorance at Boeing.
 
The U.S. National Transportation Safety Board will send an investigator to France to study an electrical cable assembly made by French electronics company Thales SA that connects to a lithium-ion battery that has caught fire in Boeing Co.'s BA -0.07% 787 aircraft, French news website La Tribune reported Monday, citing a NTSB spokesman.

On Friday, the NTSB's update of its probe signaled investigators from the board and the Federal Aviation Administration remain unclear why lithium-ion batteries aboard a pair of Dreamliners operated by two Japanese airlines burned last month.

Subscribe to WSJ: http://online.wsj.com?mod=djnwires
 
I cant help thinking that in these times of technology resources , data logging, monitoring , forensic analysis expertise, and most critically commercial pressure,....why does it take so long to figure out the cause and solution to a battery failure ?? :shock:
I does not give me much confidence in them identifying, preventing ,( hopefully ) or solving any of the more complex problems that may occur on a modern sophisticated aircraft !
Of course, it would be game over if they implement a fix and then subsequently have another similar "event" ! :oops:
 
Sancho's Horse said:
They likely already know. High stakes. The levels of legal and fiancial involvement is directly proportional to the level of Kabuki dance.

:lol:
Exactly. They are trying to slither their way out of this one by weaving a complex web and hoping nobody notices.
There were multiple warning signs along the way. Federal agencies did take note of various safety problems with this battery.

It's sorta like how the SEC was repeatedly told about Bernie Madoff's operation for 3-4 years and did nothing. Or how the housing bubble that set off this global depression was predicted in 2002, 2003, 2006, 2007 by very key folks.. our government heard these complaints, and did nothing.

I have a feeling this will continue to bubble for some time.
 
The obvious question, at least here on ES, what idiot would specify LIPO? And the bigger question, why don't they know this? At least the press? Unbelievable.
 
NTSB made a statement a few minutes ago. they discovered a short inside one of the cells of the battery that caught fire. they are investigating the possibility of defects in the construction of the cell and contamination with debris during assembly.
 
Back
Top