Carbon Fiber E-Frame built ! by Doc

[Doctorbass]

Great! Are you happy now? Do you feel the difference? did you reset the controller settings after the upgrade? It is recommended

Yes i'm happy. and i think it just does not make any sense to have this limitation of acceleration ( maybe Phase amp ramp up that is limited...) with the RC9... firmware.

I will try tomorrow to overide the batt current limitation of 136A with the Low Speed traction setting.. look like frmo my experience this afternoon that you can get higher batt amp by playing with this LS current limit. I have saw nearlt 180A burst... and it was like... INSANE aceleration ! but only from about 20km/h
Yes i have reset most of the setting, ( with teh reset system function) and manually set to zero the ind, pwr timing and few others but not all. I was glad that the setting of the BMS and controller are different and are not affected.


Next things is to solve the speed setting problem: look like in the profile setting, the max speed i set need to be like twice higher.. ex i eco mode even with 50A batt and 100A phase i can not get any acceleration if i set to 32kmh limit.. well in fact i get absolutly nothing... I need to set ti to 60kmh to have it working... just lik ethe speed setting and actual speed limit are offset or divided for a unknown reason..

Doc

 

[Doctorbass]

Not to forget to mention that i have got 14.8kW recorded with my locked firmware and INSANE acceleration =))

This mean that once i get my second Max-E for 2WD, if i can get also 14.8kW on the front wheel ( starting at a given speed as well) i will get about 30kW total and about 40hp

My goal is to beat a TESLA on teh 1/8 mile. According to the power to weight ratio.. it appear that i have chances... 275lbs and 30hp at the wheel ( 40kW) is about per pounds 0.11hp per pounds and the TESLA S P85 is 0.08

Noot sure if it will work but i'll take a chance! this would be the very first Hubby motor to beat a Tesla!

Doc

 

[madin88]

beating a tesla with adaptto? i wanna see
must say i have some doubts that the front wheel can give more than 10kW to the street because of wheelspin so at least you will need a very hard modded controller for the rear motor which can take 20kW+ output

what battery IR you have after such hard ride with 14,8kw peak?
i ask because i noticed when i'm gently with the throttle (or stay below 3-4kw) i see about 30% lower value than when i push it at lets say 10kW. shouldn't it be identical or is it normal that it becomes worse at higher current?

DOC, what do you think is a safe battery current setting for my modded adaptto? I'm going to try unlocked firmware soon. probabaly RC7 but only for testing because i don't want to stay with the bugs.

looking forward for your tests on MXUS 3T and comparison with clyte!
btw: i have custom axle + sidecover in the works and will offer them in short time. let me know if you want one.
here already some infos: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53867&start=275#p1037124

 

[Doctorbass]

Maddin88,

Personally i think that if you comply to all these following conditions you might adjust yoru controlelr to up to 160A batt current, just like Allex did.

Here are these conditions i would suggest:

-Not running a motor with higher kv than 12
-Not use more than 22s
-have the controller with perfect fine tuning
-never go WOT at full charged battery unless it's a 18s or 20s, until it reach about 84V.. the you can go WOT
-Have the shortest phase wires as possible
-Have powerfull enough battery without too much sag ( mine are 22s and have 44 miliohm at 50% SOC at ambient
-Inside the Adaptto, Install QUALITY ceramic caps at 4 locations in the controler and upgrade the actual electrolytic caps for low ESR electrolitic caps. ( i have now as low as 5 miliohm ESR at the batt terminal when no batt is connected. I have bought and installed 5x parallel 1uF 250V XR7 caps on the BAtt rail near each of the 3 phases and also added 7 of them right where the batt wires connect to the pcb. (This is recommanded in the Adaptto website):

You can find it at this adress http://adaptto.com/Support/ search for: The differences between LOCKED and UNLOCKED firmware versions:

There are voltage surges when the controller is operated at high phase currents (e.g. the higher the phase current the larger are the voltage surges – approximately 10V for each 100A of phase current for Max-E) which can blow up the power contour of the controller. It is highly recommendable in terms of in-feed to solder the capacitance of at least 6mF with a low internal resistance and also 0,01mF of ceramic/film capacitors low-esr.

(I have posted this answer also in teh Adaptto Owner thread)

The IR my battery measure is 40miliohms at about 50% soc so at 160A burst this is about 6.4Volts sag ( it sag from 79V to 72V)

I did not installed any compatible temp sensor yet in my 5403
Once i have made a phase wire upgrade i the MXUS i will install them. But from now i'll have to figure out the best way. I still think i can get some 10 AWG wires inside AND the hall wires too but i dont like this fragile axel.. I preffer the one that the Cromotor have.

Your axel look really interesting. When will you have some availlable?.. btw i have some suggestions regarding your actual AXEL design to have a better support for the bearing I-D. and not have the wire slot to limit too much the circunference that is in contact with the bearing I.D.. I see it's close to a half moon now and when i did that on my 5403 motor axel it was good for about 2 days.. then the bearing came loose! and is still loose today.

 

[Doctorbass]

16kW burst!

That's what my Adaptto recorded today during a long accelration i BOOST mode after i playes with the Traction setting that seem to overide the Preset current limit value.

Acceleration is just.... I N A S A N E !! for an ebike! i'm impatient to discover what it will be with two Adaptto and two MXUS3000.

For those who wonder if my 5403 motor was hot, the answer is yes but not too much.. the big 33 pounds weight of aluminum and steel really help to damp the peak temp the motor see. So YES i still dont have installed the MXUS.

I am a bit sceptic that the MXUS could reach better power weven with 5mm additional stator and magnet width... the 5403 Crystalyte is way higher quality built than the MXUS.. Also the winding is more tight than in the MXUS, I was a bit disapointed to see how the strands of the winding are loose and not tightened to the stator tooths... BUt anyway... i'll cmpare both and we well see. The MXUS is about 10 pounds lighter and have 5mm more stator and magnets but is ligter nad have less metal mass so it could in theory take more BURST power but not continus power... that's just perfect for my Drag racing future tests

NOt to remind that according to the ebike simulator, the torque i get with 160A is 228 pounds of torque at the wheel and it is 25" dia so it mean about 240 lb-ft torque at the axel!.. as well as on the NYX AWSOME simple Torque arms!

Here is some great pictures of the bike ( bike is a bit dirty... not cleaned... Because I USE IT 8) !!):

Video of my review of the recent updates on the NYX built:

[youtube]bhmXwmcdpsk[/youtube]

 

[Cowardlyduck]

That's so awesome Doc!
You probably don't need a second Max-E on the front...why not go with a Mini-E and a lighter motor?
You won't be able to get enough traction on the front anyway for a high power setup like that IMO.

Cheers

 

[ridethelightning]

yes, but after having put so much time, effort and cash into this project, not cutting corners, why try to save a couple hundred bucks by getting a mini-e when it will just have vastly less power and will overheat faster....also a max-e will be good for another build if it looks like its not necessary to have 2wd

go hard all the way i say! :lol:

 

[Stielz]

Nice job on getting the full 16kW! Think I saw that you're running 22S LiNMC. . What was the pack voltage when you did the 16kW run?

Also where did you source that massive front sprocket? Must be able to pedal at decent speed with that

 

[Cowardlyduck]

yes, but after having put so much time, effort and cash into this project, not cutting corners, why try to save a couple hundred bucks by getting a mini-e when it will just have vastly less power and will overheat faster....also a max-e will be good for another build if it looks like its not necessary to have 2wd

go hard all the way i say! :lol:

It's not about the money...it's about the usefulness. Even a Mini-E will put down enough power through the front to break traction, so a Max-E add's nothing IMO.

I do see your point on having the Max-E for another build though...that makes sense.

Cheers

 

[madin88]

Maddin88,

Personally i think that if you comply to all these following conditions you might adjust yoru controlelr to up to 160A batt current, just like Allex did.

Here are these conditions i would suggest:

-Not running a motor with higher kv than 12
-Not use more than 22s
-have the controller with perfect fine tuning
-never go WOT at full charged battery unless it's a 18s or 20s, until it reach about 84V.. the you can go WOT
-Have the shortest phase wires as possible
-Have powerfull enough battery without too much sag ( mine are 22s and have 44 miliohm at 50% SOC at ambient
-Inside the Adaptto, Install QUALITY ceramic caps at 4 locations in the controler and upgrade the actual electrolytic caps for low ESR electrolitic caps. ( i have now as low as 5 miliohm ESR at the batt terminal when no batt is connected. I have bought and installed 5x parallel 1uF 250V XR7 caps on the BAtt rail near each of the 3 phases and also added 7 of them right where the batt wires connect to the pcb. (This is recommanded in the Adaptto website):

thanks for the suggestions. most of that i know and i already have modded my max-e (maybe you remember i have posted pics in adaptto thread).
the question is: how many amps can such modded max-e take without we must be afraid of blowing something?
i definitely try 200A, but i believe it can take more. find it out? no way because there is to much money on the line..
i have 20s, 12kV MXUS. btw: this 20s12p 25R NCA battery has IR of 30-50 mOhm which is on same level as your zero battery which makes me happy

the 5403 Crystalyte is way higher quality built than the MXUS.. Also the winding is more tight than in the MXUS, I was a bit disapointed to see how the strands of the winding are loose and not tightened to the stator tooths... BUt anyway... i'll cmpare both and we well see.
The MXUS is about 10 pounds lighter and have 5mm more stator and magnets but is ligter nad have less metal mass so it could in theory take more BURST power but not continus power...

yes, the quality of MXUS can be bad. i have seen rough and uneven stator laminations, hall sensors at the wrong place, stator out of center (less magnet coverage) and the biggest problem: on every of my two 3T motors i only counted 20 strands by hand and not 21. Because of that i have called MXUS and also asked them about the bad quality. Now they give me a sincere 21x3T motor for free and take more care about quality
However that be, MXUS has higher efficiency than C-lyte and its way more lightweight what is very noticeable once you ride on not so smooth and straight surface. A while ago i was riding and racing with a motorcycle driver and when there was a curve with bumps and potholes i every time need to go off the throttle because of poor traction while he doesn't need to.

damn 230lbft are over 300Nm torque thats really insane. i think i do not need to tell you that you should check the axle after such abuse because there is high risk of braking (its only small M14)
about my custom mxus axle i sent you pm.

 

[Allex]

Hah he axle is already skewed a bit, I saw it in the old pictures.
How does acceleration feel compared to you Zero?

 

[Doctorbass]

Hah he axle is already skewed a bit, I saw it in the old pictures.
How does acceleration feel compared to you Zero?

My Zero have the new 75-7 motor and it is wound for more torque. I get 0-60 in about 5.5 sec because i'm limited in top speed to the 2012 battery voltage of 75V and not 116V like the 2013+.

I did not measured any a 0-100km/h yet but it is a bit slower than the Zero i would say. The torque curve is not the same. I will test all these great things soon i hope. I just need the right moment where we have less cars on the roads and have a cameraman too.

There is the Pont Rouge drag strip to about 40km from my home. this is one of the best place to test these things. but it take 45 minutes to get there and need to charge once arrived.

I will probably wait until i have the 100% finished setup with 2WD.

Doc

 

[Ohbse]

You can't put the NYX in the back of the volt? :wink:

I think it's worth doing a test as is and after 2wd, how else will you quantify the difference?

If not the drag strip then you can use one of the many GPS tools available to do virtual 1/8th or 1/4mile times on the street. You obviously have a good location for speed runs lined up

How do you find the low speed acceleration? Lifting the front wheel I assume?

 

[Doctorbass]

2WD??.. HERE IS WHY !

Few people asked why using 2WD and saif i will have problem regarding traction, add weight, make it difficult to handle, break the fork.. etc

Now let me answer and explain why! :

The idea of a 2WD ebike came from year ago. I was really curious to see more power like that on an ebike.

As you all know, it is already easy to add insane power to a single motor so why using two??

First, the idea for the 2WD is mainly for drag racing and maybe try to beat a TESLA S. So please thing advantages i term of DRAG RACING ONLY.

I could install a hub monster or a Enertrac motorcycle hub motor to the rear as well and dump 20kW to it... but i think i would get too much weight on the swin arm and have poor weight distribution on the bike.

POWER:
I prefer keeping the 20-25 pounds motor range that can easy take 10-15kW burst without damage. If i want more power i need two, that's it.
It will be better to dump 20-30kW to two motor in term of saturation and heating than in a single one that would need very big phase wire thru the axel etc.. The hub monster is

WHY NOT USING A HUB MONSTER?:
The Hub monster is a 18kv motor.. and my past experience with 18kv motor resulted that i have blown my Adaptto controller and that required couple week of wait to get it back from warranty... 18kv require insane phase amp... and alot voltage margin for the Fets.... the 12kv is safer and i get better speed on the road with for the same phase amp. The max recorded speed with the adaptto and my 5302 ( 18kv) motor was 92km/h and i felt that there was torque missing but that the motor would have continue spining faster but it was limited by torque lack at the max phase amp the adaptto was able to pump to it. With the 5403, a 12kv motor nothing blown yet and i got 116km/h. Also, on the ebike simulator, i get better result with the 12kv motor. Also the hub monster require special axel and dropout width that i dont want to loose tiime to adatp... and then once i use another motor to have to rebuild it back to original dropout width... it is just not standard enough fo rthe mechanic.

HEAT DISSIPATED ?
I think it is better to have two larger diameter 20 pounds hub motor that offer twice more surface for heat exchange than a single small diameter but wider hub motor.

WEIGHT DISTRIBUTION:
With one of the motor on the front, that's 25 pounds more that the bike will have to lift to wheeli so it will help to keep the front wheel on the ground during the start.

TWO CONTROLLERS?
It will be easyer to manage two controllers with one on each wheel than two controller to the same motor. The Adaptto tuning would get more complicated for the tuning if both would control a single hub motor with 6 phases wires. The Adaptto HAve already a special feature to control independently two motors. Two Adaptto mean a potential of 32kW burst ( more than 30hp at the wheels!)


FRONT WHEEL TRACTION ??
Now that's a great and interesting question! people think in term of power but i think in term of POWER AND TORQUE CONTROL.. what would make the front wheel to slip on the ground is TORQUE, not power ! NOw what does it mean?.. think about this: Power is TORQUE * SPEED, so if i have to reduce torque to keep the front wheel to have traction i only have to control the torque... and as speed increase i will eventyually reach the max power.. Max power anyway ! Just take a look to the ebike simulator image: you clearly see that the max power is not acheived at the max Torque but it is reached in an area whwere torque have reduced but that speed have increased! I am not saying that i will be able to push the full 16kW and keep torque limiting ( phase amp limiting)... but i will probably be able to push 8-10kW at least and not from a start i agree. The front motor will be more to add more powerband than to iproove the 0-60ft. I also plan to move my weight to the front wheel at the start to help, then i will take normal "aerodynamic" position.

FRONT SUSPENSION FORK AND 10+KW??
Well this is something unknown and unteted... and in fact i repeat again! this is TORQUE that really matter, not speed! well at least not in the negative torque yet!... I mean that if a bicycle fork is made to sustain hard breaking force witch can result to hundred of Nm of force to stop the bike, it can certainly take the same torque in the other directin ( positive torque direction)! Any doubt?

2WD EVERYDAY RIDE?
Not really... but i want to be able to remove the front wheel, disconnect the motor and reinstall a normal mtb wheel easy. ( in other words: going back to 1WD easy)
The drag racing setup is not for everyday ride... and if i would choose a hub monster, i would have to live with 40 pounds mass suspended on the swing arm that has been modified to fit it... but instead with 2WD, i keep the "lightweight" 20 pounds hub motor and use a normal bike wheel on the front!... just a normal ebike... with... 16kW...

Plus, this second motor wil be usable on other project =)

Doc

 

[Doctorbass]

You can't put the NYX in the back of the volt? :wink:

I think it's worth doing a test as is and after 2wd, how else will you quantify the difference?

If not the drag strip then you can use one of the many GPS tools available to do virtual 1/8th or 1/4mile times on the street. You obviously have a good location for speed runs lined up

How do you find the low speed acceleration? Lifting the front wheel I assume?

Yes the front wheel want to lift.. and the second motor i will add on teh front will help keeping the front wheel to the ground so i will be able to push full phase current to the rear motor then!

Doc

 

[bigbore]

-OVS is to compensate for low battery voltage give similar speed to a higher battery voltage
-PWR TIMIMG is to compensate for the relative delay of the current to the produced magnetic field at high rpm.. just like the Vtec does on Honda ICE.

Doc

Wow! You named my old wonderful Honda car ....

I have been riding the Allex Stealth Bomber with Adaptto Max-e controller 20S14P LG DBHE2 Battery and Crystalyte 5403 motor. What's the stock Kv of the 5403? What are the modifications you have on your 5403?

 

[Doctorbass]

-OVS is to compensate for low battery voltage give similar speed to a higher battery voltage
-PWR TIMIMG is to compensate for the relative delay of the current to the produced magnetic field at high rpm.. just like the Vtec does on Honda ICE.

Doc

Wow! You named my old wonderful Honda car ....

I have been riding the Allex Stealth Bomber with Adaptto Max-e controller 20S14P LG DBHE2 Battery and Crystalyte 5403 motor. What's the stock Kv of the 5403? What are the modifications you have on your 5403?

Here they are Liquid cooled Doc 5403:http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=39933&hilit=5403+liquid+cooled

and my FULL review of the 5403: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=38300

and kv is about 9 http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=19301

But i calculated according to the Crystalyte website and it give kv of 11.1

Doc

 

[ewinters]

Has anyone considered steering dynamics of 2 wheeled vehicles vs 2wd? I wonder because on normal rolling speeds you counter-steer to get bikes to do curves. By pointing the front tire outwards you tilt to the opposite direction and the shape of the tires, with a conical footprint, does the curve. I fear that some FWD torque on a curve may lead to a front wheel lowside crash.

 

[Doctorbass]

Has anyone considered steering dynamics of 2 wheeled vehicles vs 2wd? I wonder because on normal rolling speeds you counter-steer to get bikes to do curves. By pointing the front tire outwards you tilt to the opposite direction and the shape of the tires, with a conical footprint, does the curve. I fear that some FWD torque on a curve may lead to a front wheel lowside crash.

Well this is interesting reflection... however, From my experience i never saw any drag strip with a curve yet :lol:

Doc

 

[ewinters]

Well, yes... So is just the ordinary dangers of a drag race I guess

I think adaptto has a setting to turn off FWD after a given speed, better be sure you have all kW to beat that Tesla.

 

[John in CR]

My 2nd ebike was a front wheel drive, and there's almost no change in the bicycle dynamics. The only slightly tricky difference I noticed was that coming out of curves it had a slight tendency to lift me out of the lean a bit near the end of a curve, so I'd end up eg slightly left of normal after a curve to the right. All other effects were positive differences. As long as you make sure the front is always adding positive torque to the bike when under power, then there should be no issues. To accomplish that I'll make sure that the front has a bit higher no-load speed than the rear.

 

[ewinters]

That's interesting. There may be some differences since a bike is a much lighter vehicle than a motorcycle, and the rider's weigh shift may have a bigger influence.

For anyone who like the subject, I recommend watching the "cornering bible" : https://vimeo.com/101202722

 

[Willow]

...always look forward to seeing your clips DR.B.

I am building up some of these frames...have a quick question. What is your rear shock length? are you using the two tall brackets to mount the shock?? The geometry looks pretty good.

S.

 

[kiwiev]

Have you ever considered an A.C. direct drive with a ring gear on the disc brake side of rear wheel. Have been wondering if this is fesible. Torque is the key to drag racing horsepower comes from rpm after.

I dyno my EV sonic 7 it was getting 1095 ft/lbs at the rear wheels at 50 rpm which was problably more like 20 rpm but the dyno could read lower.
I get 3.3 to 3.5 0 to 100kph

Cheers kiwi

 

[Cyclebutt]

I've been gone WAY too long! Was distracted with motorcycles and regular bicycles for a long while.

Nice work Dr. Bass. Can't wait to see the two wheel version. That NYX is smoken hot cool!