Cargo bikes with 3 wheels

[macribs]

I've been getting queries from my wife about buying her an e-bike too. Apparently all this e-bike stuff has gotten to her as well. Too much e-bike talk I guess
Well she wanted a store bought ready to ride cargo bike from Denmark. Expensive. So expensive.

She liked the cargo compartment with seats for the kids of cos, and that it tilt/lean in curves like a normal bicycle. What you think guys. Is this bike worth the asking price of € 4.995 or 6.688 US $. It seems awfully steep for a bike with no suspension and a small power motor.

[youtube]JB2eBWNHkww[/youtube]


I am not dissing the whole idea of that bike, cos the idea is brilliant really. It is more the price and what you get for that steep price. I mean for that price I would expect double A arms up front with suspension and a suspended swing arm at the least. All it is a a frame and a mid drive with batteries. I can not see any suspension on that bike that would justify such price.

I've been reading a thread here about a DIY cargo bike.
After all she will going slow, take small trips in sunny weather with the kids or maybe do a little trip to the store. Nothing more. And if it rains I can not at all see here using a bike over her car. So I can't really say I feel comfortable spending like crazy amount of money for a bike she might not use that often. I think she really just been influenced by my newly affection for e-bikes

And for a build like this I could start off with a really cheap donor bike for like 100$ or so. She is light as a feather and kids are small so she would not need bulky motor, super strong frame or a huge battery pack.

Something like this maybe for a donor bike. Easy to step onto. Yet a time proven design from the 70's and still there are many of these around for close to nothing.

Or get all the wiring and lacing done, including battery and motor for about 200$ from China.

I might not be able to get the leaning thing on 1 try but I for sure can weld together some tubes to make room for dual front wheels and a cargo box.
I mean range and speed are not gonna be huge, but then again it does not need to be. This will be solely for riding around town.


So has something like this been done here at ES? I mean with the leaning part for the front?
I think this could be a late winter or early spring project after I am done building my own bike. But if you know about any threads about something similar that would be nice.

 

[RLT]

For that kind of money it better be able to haul 500 pounds for 50 miles at a constant 30 mph IMHO.

I never liked the concept of a tadpole trike like that, but hauling kids in it, I can see where you would want to be able to keep a constant eye on them.

I seem to vaguely remember someone with a detailed build thread here back when I was active in ~2007 with good engineering of an articulated leaner. If I wasn't so tired, I'd try to find it for you.

 

[Samd]

How old are the kids?

Under three years old we used a generic chinese CrMo framed trike. The Crmo has better harmonics for ebiking than the aluminium ones.

Thats a low speed 1kW rear hub.

Over three is better with a longtail bike if the kids can balance themselves. Much better cruising speed. We still have one small guy, a kid seat fixes that.
We fit all three kids on the Yuba Mundo.


The ezee up front isnt used, I use the BBS02.

I like the steel frame also. I have converted a few aluminium longtails, very different ride.
I like the low rear of the edgerunner but I can't get the frames easily here.
http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/edgerunner.html

So I am looking to weld up my own, just put the bb spindle thru the rear dropouts and join the two bikes below up. Lots of home made cargo bikes do this.


Lots of home made longtails online.
http://www.bikeforums.net/utility-cycling/377128-home-built-xtracycle.html

 

[dogman dan]

I fell in love with the longtail idea, and once I built mine, really fell in love.

But if you are fine with lower speeds, I can see a tub up front trike being really nice too. No tipping it over for one thing.

Once moving 20 mph, ability to lean into turns might be well worth the price. That's what makes the longtail nice I think.

 

[macribs]

How old are the kids?

Under three years old we used a generic chinese CrMo framed trike. The Crmo has better harmonics for ebiking than the aluminium ones.
View attachment 3
Thats a low speed 1kW rear hub.

Over three is better with a longtail bike if the kids can balance themselves. Much better cruising speed. We still have one small guy, a kid seat fixes that.
We fit all three kids on the Yuba Mundo.
View attachment 2
View attachment 1
The ezee up front isnt used, I use the BBS02.

I like the steel frame also. I have converted a few aluminium longtails, very different ride.
I like the low rear of the edgerunner but I can't get the frames easily here.
http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/edgerunner.html

So I am looking to weld up my own, just put the bb spindle thru the rear dropouts and join the two bikes below up. Lots of home made cargo bikes do this.


Lots of home made longtails online.
http://www.bikeforums.net/utility-cycling/377128-home-built-xtracycle.html

3 and 4 years old. Wifee is a little sceptic to use a none leaner after a trip to an swedish island on the west coast last summer. She rented a trike of some kind and went on a ride with the kids. And in a curve the bike lifted one of the front wheels. Guess she turned to quickly in a sharp turn or something. And when she saw the video of that Danish leaning cargo she was sure she would feel safe riding one of those, as it would never lift one of the front wheels cos the whole bikes lean in when curving. But I think the price is really crazy. And I can't really see the price justifies any of the design choices made. That Chinese cargo trike, does that lean in when curving or does it keep straight and become unstable?

Longtail didn't catch at all with her, she wanted the kids up front so she can have them within eyesight the whole time. You know women

I guess I will try to see if I can find any threads of building such a leaning cargo trike. Btw this seems doable:

 

[MP3 Fan]

Hi, I am not sure if a classic trike is a cargo bike but I just wanted to pop in and tell you to stay far away from Schwin Meridian 3-wheeler on the market. An elderly friend bought one so I could convert it to ebike and it is the cheapest most flimsy peice of crap I have ever seen. And they has the nerve to charge $500 for it. This thing has been nothing back trouble since he got it and as we speak one fo the rear wheels is wobbling around and I am no longer in the same city to look after it for him. If they could have gotten away with building this thing out of tissue paper they would have. It would be the next logical step if they wanted to make it any weaker or cheaper.

 

[docnjoj]

Here is a leaning trike that has been well tested. It sells for about 2700 without the Bionx system.

http://www.varnahandcycles.com/cycles.htm

otherDoc

 

[bowlofsalad]

I am filled with 'no, thanks' for that price. I'd look for an upright trike, put a decent motor on it, and make a trailer or two. You'll spend so much less. I love the idea of tilting trike, but your words of 'she will going slow, take small trips in sunny weather with the kids or maybe do a little trip to the store' for that price turn me away so hard from nearly $7,000, even for half that price I couldn't feel right justifying the extra cost for a leaning trike, maybe for someone else.. She will get along just fine with what I just suggested. Just be sure that the motor can handle all the weight, perhaps going with a cycleanalyst 3 utilizing it's thermal shutdown would probably be wise.

 

[amberwolf]

You can make your own leaning trike relatively easy, if you have the time and willingness to learn whatever skills you don't have yet for building it.

There's a few designs that members here have posted, and a thread by Sk8norcal that contains a LOT of leaning trikes from various places, many (most?) of which are intended for at least some cargo. Lots of the pics have enough detail to reproduce the design yourself if you chose to (it might not be easy but it is possible).


For a somewhat silly idea you can look at my Loooooooongbike thread, which also includes some ideas for a trike version in delta, and in tadpole. I forget if I had the leaning stuff int ehre yet.



One cheap idea I no longer have both bikes to test with (one was stolen after the fire) is to take two identical rear suspension frames, and use the rear half of each to make the rear end of a leaning delta. Bars would cross between the two so that as you turn you lean over forcing the inside to go up and forcing the outer side to go down, and vice-versa. Sorry I don't have a clearer description or pic.

But then you could have a trapezoidal cargo box suspended between them, or attached to the bakc of the forward part of the trike.


You can also make one by using a regular "trike kit" that normally bolts to the rear dropouts of a regular bike, and welding or bolting a round flat plate to the front so that it can mate to a similar flat plate bolted or welded to the bike's dropouts. Then you can use a disc brake caliper mounted to the bike's plate, so that it fits over the edge of the othe rplate and lets you "grip" the plate with the brake, so you can lock it in an upright position for getting on and off, ro stopping, or whateve.r You could even make it so that it automaticlaly locks except when you are turning, if you want to make the mechanics for that. The trike part at the rear (delta) woudln't lean, exactly, but since most of your own wieght would be leaning over into the turn, on the biek part, then it would still help a lot in keeping you from flipping in a turn at higher speeds than walking. If you make the cargo box in the trike section as low as possible to the ground, and/or put all your heavy ebke stuff (motor, batteries) down in the bottom fo the box low to the ground, and/or angle the wheels slightly inward at the top, it would also help.

 

[Drunkskunk]

Your wife wants a Mercedes, A top of the line Ebike. You plan to build the Ebike equivalent of a Ferrari. You'd better buy her the Mercedes or your bed will be very cold when you finally get your Ferrari.

Sure, you could build a better bike on a lower budget, if you already knew what you were doing. You don't yet. Buy her what she wants. It's cheaper than a divorce.

 

[Joseph C.]

Your wife wants a Mercedes, A top of the line Ebike. You plan to build the Ebike equivalent of a Ferrari. You'd better buy her the Mercedes or your bed will be very cold when you finally get your Ferrari.

Sure, you could build a better bike on a lower budget, if you already knew what you were doing. You don't yet. Buy her what she wants. It's cheaper than a divorce.

Listen to this man. He knows what he is talking about.

The thing you're not seeing about the Danish bike is that it is aesthetically beautiful. That's why your wife loves it.

Obviously, a Danish-built bike is going to cost a lot more than a Chinese bike. The Danish average wage is the fourth-highest in Europe and the standard of living is the highest in the world.

 

[macribs]

Nah she wont be getting no Danish Trike
I've come across the Noomad so she will get a nice bike and I will try to make it as aesthetic as possible. I will simply buy a noomad kit and do some modifications to it. Or use it as a guide to learn the leaning part. Then I will weld together something out of my own head. I really see double A arms with suspension low in front. To avoid high unsprung mass. And the width of the cargo area must be wide enough to accommodate 2 kids. And preferable batteries as well. I picture the cargo "tub" as kind of a simple "click-on" easy to attach/detach from the bike so that ie groceries can be wheeled in just like you would a large suitcase. And the kids seat should fold down when not in use, like the third row seat on many SUV's.

Well thats the idea, at least. Who knows I might just end up mounting that kit to a women mtb frame type "easy step in" with suspension fork. But it would actually be good fun to make something useful and really stealthy with batteries hidden down in the "tub". And making a "tub" will allow me to finally be using that good ol' injection moulding equipment that have been on a shelf for too long now.


[youtube]OHRJPio1z4w[/youtube]

 

[docnjoj]

I am really interested in the Noomad and how well it works. It seems like a great idea.
Subscribed.
otherDoc

 

[John in CR]

Only 2 wheels but I always liked this one as the Mercedes of bakfiets. http://www.urbanarrow.com/en/family My opinion is based on looks, since I don't have any info on reliability. A high priced ebike of any kind better be absolutely reliable.

 

[macribs]

I am really interested in the Noomad and how well it works. It seems like a great idea.
Subscribed.
otherDoc

The Noomad is cheap too, so I don't mind ripping it to bits, to learn how they get that leaning thingy working. It seems the fork are just bolted onto to the kit rather then directly onto the wheel hub. For optimal rideability I think the hooks for cargo should be frame mountedd to avoid extra unsprung weight. So I think I will use the Noomad kit to get the leaning part correct and then make double A arm (wishbone??) front suspension.


For those who live in areas with snow a 3 wd trike might be a thing to look into. Should make for superior grips on icy roads and would be safer on slippery roads then a 2 wheeler.

 

[Chalo]

I would not count on that Noomad being an easy ride at all. I built a comparable trike many years ago, and it's a seriously frightening machine to master. The Noomad's front wheels may tilt in parallelogram fashion, but I'm guessing that it still will do nothing to promote harmony between you and your wife.

The following photos and description are from my old page at http://chalo.org .

This one I call the X-plane. The nylon BMX mags are marked "Stealth", the Schwinn Varsity frame is pure Cold War tech and style, and its riding qualities X-plain why more bikes aren't made this way! It's the result of some of my experiments about adaping normal bikes to cargo-carrying purposes. The tilt joint on the front axle is fortified with a pair of Timken tapered roller bearings, and the axle itself is a piece of drill rod that seemed pretty corrosion-resistant at first. I punched out the original bearing races in the mag wheels and pressed in some nice sealed cartridge bearings.

I fitted the X-plane with a longer than usual "fork" to buy a little more room between feet and front wheels. To get the bottom bracket back down to a more normal height, I replaced the original 27" wheel with a 24" coaster-braked unit. I originally equipped this bike with 14-apeed front and rear shifting, but one ride assured me that the bike would not be spending much time going fast, nor would its rider often have a hand free for shifting.

I don't really see what the tilting tadpole does for you that a traditional front-loading long john doesn't do with less weight, width, expense, and complexity. I'm certain I'd rather live with a Bullitt (expensive Danish 2-wheeled front loader) than with the expensive Danish 3-wheeled front loader your wife favors.

 

[macribs]

Chalo, don't know what to say. Never tried Bullit or The ButcherBike. So I have no idea how they compare.
If noomad is on par with the Butcher Bike or under par I do not know. I guess the only way to check if the Butcher is really working is to take a trip to Copenhagen to see and try it out in RL. And Denmark is never wrong, it is a great destination for relaxing. And I am certain I will get loads of points from my wife if we make a weekend out of it.

Trying to reason with women I gave up years ago. If she wants a trike her mind is set. A bullit would only be an option if it had 3 wheels. I am guessing it will be a struggle to even get her to accept a home made trike, and to suggest a 2 wheel cargo bike will be totally useless as it would not sink in. No matter how sweet it rides.

From the videos of the Butcher it sure seems like it is a smooth ride. I can't really see myself buying that trike just to take it to bits tough, price is too high. But I might be able to use a camera to get the basic idea. The Noomad on the other hand is priced like a tenth of the butcher so I don''t mind hacking it to try to force it and hammer it into a shape that fits my need.

Sure it might turn out a leaning cargo trike is not a doable DIY project, but I can't give in without even trying.

 

[Chalo]

From the videos of the Butcher it sure seems like it is a smooth ride.

I expect that the Butcherbike probably works OK. Better than a bike, maybe not-- but fundamentally OK, probably.

The problem with the Noomad as I see it is the same as the problem with my X-plane. The wheels steer around the headset axis, but they aren't close to that axis. I'm sure the X-plane is worse, for various reasons: non-cambering front wheels, longer front axle, heavier wheels and axle. But the basic problem is the same.

The Butcherbike has what appears to be Ackermann steering with pivots just inboard of the hubs. When you steer it, the inside wheel won't move dramatically rearward as the front wheel moves similarly forward, like the X-plane does and to a lesser extent, the Noomad does too.

In a nutshell, if your steering system doesn't have linkages in it, it had better be steering a single wheel.

 

[cwah]

my cargo bike:

 

[drutledge]

My 2 cents: buy a cheap(er) chinese bike from ebay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cargo-Box-Bike-Bakfiet-Bicycle-Family-Kids-Trailer-Beach-Park-Manual-/380966860509?pt=US_Bicycles_Frames&hash=item58b364f6dd

Spending big bucks isn't worth it, put your money into the electrics of your choosing. I used two 9C 2807s on mine with two 20A controllers and a CA, plus throttle. I use RC Lipo batteries, 12S4P for about 48V 20Ah. We easily can go 20 miles at 15MPH, stop and go semi-urban traffic. Has tons of torque which is nice to clear intersections quickly.

We have never tipped our bike (2800 miles so far) but we keep it reasonable at 15Mph and slow down for turns. I think anything faster is risky in an urban area with doors, cars, dogs, runners and mostly pot hole avoidance which is very hard with three wheels in jeopardy. Make sure there are turn stops so that you can't turn it too sharp. We also have a front loading rickshaw that WILL tip easily since it has no stops and a too quick turn with too much angle spells disaster.

Another two cents: get thick mean tires with thick mean inner tubes. Put some stop leak slime in for extra measure. Keep everything well inflated. A puncture on a cargo bike, especially with a hub motor to wrangle PLUS kids to coral while working is a real pain. Carry all your tools, you'll have lots of space for 'em.

 

[macribs]

Yes them Chinese cargo trikes are cheap. Starting around 200$ and free shipping when buying from Chinese sites.
So for a starting point I think it will serve just right. But as she has had bad experiences with trikes before I am not sure if she would even touch a cargo trike that is not leaning. And for sure not with the kids up front. She is too afraid of flipping the trike in corners and turns.

So if I am to be sure she too jumps the EV train I better make dang sure she gets a ride she trusts with the kids up front. Otherwise it will all be a waist and the trike will not be used.

But as this project is on the back burner I have no hurry to get started with it. If she has a cargo trike next summer that is all fine. If not completed there will always be the year after that

Point is I am not going to settle for a solution that she is not comfortable with. After all, biking should be about joy and relaxation. Not anxiety and nervous breakdowns.