Chinese Connection

[Knuckles]

I asked about digital v. analogue controllers (I asked the guy from poweridestore). He had no answer and I JUST HAVE NO CLUE! WHAT the hell is a digital controller anyway?

My guess is hall sensors that are digital (i.e 0v to 5V) with nothin in between. I am in the dark here! Totally clueless. DOES ANYONE KNOW! I would love to know. GOOD QUESTION BTW.

I here they do cause trouble. WHY? I do not know.

But crazy dude's controllers will work for your brushless hub motor. THIS I know.

Is there a thread about this digital controller stuff? I would love to know!

???

 

[Knuckles]

Let me re-phrase that. I guess (total guess) that his PWM controller will work. Want me to send you one so we can find out?

what da hell.

-B

 

[Roonster]

Sure, it would be a nice comparison with the stock BMC controller. I'm currently running with a 36Volt Ping battery so it will have to be a controller with the lower 29V cut-off.

 

[Knuckles]

Well then I guess the answer is analogue. Gosh 36V! My Grandma runs 36V! (sorry ... that was rude but seriously ... 36V is Oh So Slow!)

Can you double your V to 72V and try pumpin 30 amps thru your motor? That would be a COOL test! I'll supply you the test controller.

GO CRAZY ... MAN!

 

[Knuckles]

Just to clarify ...

For a non-geared brushless hub motor (don't care about it's specific rating), more voltage = more speed (rpm) and more amperage = more torque (more umph!).

For a planetary geared motor the same should (theoretically) apply. V=speed and A=torque. Simple yet true. Can you fry a motor? I doubt it.

You may fry hall sensors or the harness wires (and controller quite easily) but I doubt you will ever fry the armature.

Just my humble opinion.

:|

 

[Knuckles]

Maybe I should do a slow down "buck-a-roo". I have replaced many a motor hall sensor. How many folks in this forum know how to do this? Know how to use a soldering iron?

I disassemble and re-assemble motors very easily and I guess everyone knows how to. Bad assumption on my part.

Sorry. My bad.

 

[Link]

also use copper from cat-5 network cable (5 conductors for hall sensors)

ROFL! I use USB cable for my throttle . I'll have to try the CAT-5 when I redo the wiring in my Golden Motor.

My guess is hall sensors that are digital (i.e 0v to 5V) with nothin in between.

Depends on the hall sensor. My throttle has an analogue hall sensor. C'lytes I believe use digital halls.

For a non-geared brushless hub motor (don't care about it's specific rating), more voltage = more speed (rpm) and more amperage = more torque (more umph!).

For a planetary geared motor the same should (theoretically) apply. V=speed and A=torque. Simple yet true.

True for any motor. Except volts = torque, too. A motor fed with 72V and 30A will take off much faster than say a 36V 30A. Some weird inductance thing in the motor, I guess.

Can you fry a motor? I doubt it.

You may fry hall sensors or the harness wires (and controller quite easily) but I doubt you will ever fry the armature.

Can be done. Just push the motor to its limit for too long and let the heat build up. In a brushed the brush plate/assembly usually goes first, though.

Maybe I should do a slow down "buck-a-roo". I have replaced many a motor hall sensor. How many folks in this forum know how to do this? Know how to use a soldering iron?

I disassemble and re-assemble motors very easily and I guess everyone knows how to. Bad assumption on my part.

Sorry. My bad.

Most regulars here do. n00bs come to us for help.


And what's the story behind the nickname? Watch too much Sonic?

 

[Roonster]

Well up to now I've been limited to 36V by the stock controller. I had ordered a c-lite 72V controller hoping to run higher voltage but it turned out to be incompatible with the BMC motor so I sold it to Laz. So I want to make sure I have a viable high voltage controller before I buy more batteries,

Also do you think the new controllers will work with a 5K pot style throttle like a magura twist grip?

 

[Knuckles]

Well up to now I've been limited to 36V by the stock controller. I had ordered a c-lite 72V controller hoping to run higher voltage but it turned out to be incompatible with the BMC motor so I sold it to Laz. So I want to make sure I have a viable high voltage controller before I buy more batteries,

Also do you think the new controllers will work with a 5K pot style throttle like a magura twist grip?

Well from what I have read the crystalyte digital controllers don't work with the Puma motors. Crazy dudes 72V controllers are clearly analogue and accept an analogue signal from the motor hall sensors. I have measured this to vary from 0.1V to 4.9V. The thottle sensors are also 0-5V. His controllers only have three thottle wires (no leads for LEDs). Plain and simple.

If you can measure your motor hall sensor outputs (from ground to output lead) for each phase and if they vary between 0V and 5V (turn wheel slowly while measuring) then an analogue controller should work IMO.

 

[fechter]

Well up to now I've been limited to 36V by the stock controller. I had ordered a c-lite 72V controller hoping to run higher voltage but it turned out to be incompatible with the BMC motor so I sold it to Laz. So I want to make sure I have a viable high voltage controller before I buy more batteries,

Also do you think the new controllers will work with a 5K pot style throttle like a magura twist grip?

Any controller that works with a hall throttle can work with a pot throttle by adding a pair of fixed resistors in series with the ground and 5v lines.

Just because the controller is analog does not automatically mean it will work with a BMC motor, though chances are that it will. This would need to be tested.

I asked about digital v. analogue controllers (I asked the guy from poweridestore). He had no answer and I JUST HAVE NO CLUE! WHAT the hell is a digital controller anyway?

Is there a thread about this digital controller stuff? I would love to know!

???

See the sticky thread on Crystalyte v.2 controllers. They use a microprocessor to control everything.

Anyway ... 14 gauge is more than adequate for A,B,C phase wires (IMO).

-B

14 ga. might not melt, but the losses will be high. On the controller, it would be great to use 10ga for the phase and battery wires. The current in the phase wires can be several times the current limit. If you have a short section of 14ga. going through the axle the losses can be minimized by switching to larger wire close to where the wires come out.

 

[Knuckles]

Here is a thought ...

I have spare 72V controllers (w/ 75V mosfets). I will not sell these because I consider the design flawed (thus I ordered 10 corrected controllers).

But I run this controller hard and it does work great and the wiring will be the same as the new models I ordered. Thus this is a very good test unit (62V-82V range).

I will send you this controller (no cost) for testing puposes. The conditions are you test it and report your findings in this forum.

Then pass the controller on to other forum members to test. Maybe this can be a new thread. "Crazy Controller Test Results"

Thus you (and others) can Try before you Buy. Anyone like this idea? It does require some cooperation, trust and faith.

 

[TylerDurden]

Send one to Fechter. If anybody can break it, he can. :wink:

 

[Knuckles]

14 ga. might not melt, but the losses will be high. On the controller, it would be great to use 10ga for the phase and battery wires. The current in the phase wires can be several times the current limit. If you have a short section of 14ga. going through the axle the losses can be minimized by switching to larger wire close to where the wires come out.[/quote]

OK But How to squeeze that much copper thru the 14mm axle. The best I could do is 14 AWG. A pedal first controller needs no hall sensors so then you may have more room for phase wire copper by eliminating the 5 hall sensor wires. Thinner insulation may help too I guess.

I am running Grubee motors on my bikes (cheap but fun and reliable) so the 14 AWG is a major upgrade for these motors. Also looks like the crazy dude 72V controller uses 14 gauge phase leads.

 

[Knuckles]

Send one to Fechter. If anybody can break it, he can. :wink:

Heck I can break it myself! (I can use my Chinese sledge hammer) The goal is to check compatibility (and quality) ... but sure It would be an honor to send it to Fechter! Hey Fechter ... you want I send you a 'crazy' controller? Please use screwdriver and not sledge hammer to open it up.

 

[lazarus2405]

OK But How to squeeze that much copper thru the 14mm axle. The best I could do is 14 AWG. A pedal first controller needs no hall sensors so then you may have more room for phase wire copper by eliminating the 5 hall sensor wires. Thinner insulation may help too I guess.

I use 10awg wires on my 5303 and its controller. It's a tight squeeze between the axle and bearings, but it works.

14 ga. might not melt, but the losses will be high. On the controller, it would be great to use 10ga for the phase and battery wires. The current in the phase wires can be several times the current limit.

Exactly. At 75 amps, 14awg will dissipate 12.5 watts every foot, while 10awg will only cause you to loose 5.6w/ft. With roughly three feet per conductor between the batteries and controller and another three between the controller and motor, we're talking about a difference between using 14awg and 10awg of 100w lost as heat.

Of course, then there's the current multiplication from the PWM, on those motor phase wires. I don't have any idea what a good measure of this would be, but it's only worse.

Send one to Fechter. If anybody can break it, he can. :wink:

Agreed. He'll dissect it, test it, reverse engineer it, and post all about it.

Out of curiosity, Fechter, do you have a BMC lying around? :wink:

 

[giveahoot]

Great job from this fellow NYer! I was trying to tell everyone here just how receptive ecrazyman was to suggestions, but wasn't very convincing. What a great opportunity to help create an awesome controller. My first request was for regenerative braking and a heavy duty power switch, but then got too busy to continue the dialog. I imagine ecrazyman works at the Santroll factory.

http://www.santroll.com/info/indexsp.asp

Especially after reading about all those Crystatyte failures, and just seeing the higher quality guts of these controllers, buying one was a no-brainer. I've been beating on my 48V/28A controller, and it keeps coming back for more.

I certainly wouldn't mind having another one, especially with regenerative braking, 4110s or maybe even better a digital ASIC/PWM (if indeed possible) to greatly increase efficiency and reliability, and lower heat and cap count. Populate the board with SMDs without much need for mosfets. I'd also be interested in a better explanation behind some of the controller's features: soft braking or E-ABS (electric absorption braking system,) cruise function, 1:1 power assistance system, afterburner acceleration etc.

 

[lazarus2405]

Is there any sort of timeline? Especially on the 4110 units?

Mark me down for one of those 4110-based 100v units while you're at it. All I have is the clyte v2, with no spare, and I get the feeling that I'm going to blow it spectacularly someday.

 

[fechter]

Send one to Fechter. If anybody can break it, he can. :wink:

Agreed. He'll dissect it, test it, reverse engineer it, and post all about it.

Out of curiosity, Fechter, do you have a BMC lying around? :wink:

I have a Puma

 

[Knuckles]

Is there any sort of timeline? Especially on the 4110 units?

Mark me down for one of those 4110-based 100v units while you're at it. All I have is the clyte v2, with no spare, and I get the feeling that I'm going to blow it spectacularly someday.

The 10 - 72V (30 amp) units that ecrazyman has made for me (on there way to me now) are using 12 STW80NF10 mosfets not the 4110's. He plans to use the 4110's on the 40 and 50 amp versions. The unit I can send to Fechter uses the undersized 75NF75 fets but it still works fine (between 62V and 82V) so the only difference will be the upgraded fets (and incorrect low V cut-off). Crazyman is also designing an on-board pot to adjust the low-V cut-off for any desired value (maybe for the next round of controllers).

I'll post when I have the new units. If Fechter wants to send me his address I'll mail him the test unit as I have three and can spare one (I will not sell it because I consider the fet choice a flaw).

Ecrazyman is a real nice fellow (he likes the "LA GUNS"), electrical engineer and board designer in Hong Kong. We use a Skype connection for our dialogue. He will not use speakers or microphone because he does not like his own spoken English (hey I don't know any Chinese) so we only chat and send files. This communication is perfect and very effective. We are exactly 12 hours apart.

He already has the Electric Adsorbing Brake System (EABS) on other controllers he sells and I am exploring this also.

The company name is "SHENZHEN SUCTEAM TECHNOLOGY CO., LTD." (ha,ha). Nice name ... Why not call it "BlowTeam"! So I suggested maybe just "SHENZHEN USA".

He absolutely welcomes all this feedback so keep it coming. I volunteer as a relay between all of you and him. I plan on selling controllers on ebay and my own on-line store but I am committed to discounting to forum members because forum members are the true design team. I also don't want to come across as just a vendor trying to sell crap. I owe a lot to this forum for all I have learned and you guys are way smarter than me.

-Cheers

 

[Mathurin]

One thing that would be truly sweet is a 12v PTO for lights.

 

[Knuckles]

One thing that would be truly sweet is a 12v PTO for lights.

Exactly! Excellent idea!

 

[monster]

what about a 240v controller then i could run a mains voltage battery pack.

 

[Knuckles]

Heck! When does an electric bicycle stop being a bicycle and starts becoming an electric motorcycle?

This might be a good title for a new thread!

Anything over 90V scare sh*t out of me. Too easy to electrocute myself! Yikes (squared).

 

[lazarus2405]

Heck! When does an electric bicycle stop being a bicycle and starts becoming an electric motorcycle?

There've been several threads on this topic. When it no longer has working pedals, it is not a bicycle. When it no longer uses a bicycle frame in favor of a dirtbike or motorcycle frame, it is no longer a bicycle.

When it has more power than 750w, it is no longer a "pedal-assist" bicycle and instead is more of a "motorized bicycle". Anything in between that and the above is the gray area in which many here live. :lol:

Anything over 90V scare sh*t out of me. Too easy to electrocute myself! Yikes (squared).

Anything 50vDC and up can be fatal. Just be careful, keep things insulated, and have fun.

what about a 240v controller then i could run a mains voltage battery pack.

Are you being sarcastic? Because... that's an interesting idea. I bet I could charge my 112v pack off of the 115v mains with no more hardware than a cord and a bridge rectifier.

 

[Knuckles]

[/quote] Are you being sarcastic? Because... that's an interesting idea. I bet I could charge my 112v pack off of the 115v mains with no more hardware than a cord and a bridge rectifier. [/quote]

I had the same idea. But 120v AC is not always 120V (as low as 110V I would think) so some type of current limiter is essential in addition to the DC rectification. Sounds like possible sparks I would think (Oh look at the pretty colors).

-B