Clever Cycles "Hub Motor Mid-Drive" secrets!

[LI-ghtcycle]

Ok, so maybe they aren't really secrets, but I never knew this before!

First off, I want to say that the folks at Clever Cycles in Portland Oregon have been very helpful in my quest in making my own version of their idea, and I am happy to say that I received great info from the builder of the stoke monkey today!

First off, the stoke monkey was designed to work as a bolt-on addition to the Xtracycle cargo system, and therefore after much R & D (even starting out with a RH drive similar to mine using a Nuvinci) they came to use a CLyte 407 as the DD hub motor for their kit because it fit very nicely inside the rear of a bicycle frame with Xtracycle attachment.

The motor that they would have used, if they could have fit it as comfortably as the 407, is the Amped Bikes DD, the same motor we know more commonly as the 9C!!

I didn't get the details of what winding of 9C that they used, however I am sure it would be one of the more common like the 9 X 7 (2807) or 6 X 10 (2806) and Ebikes.ca is the supplier of their motors if I am not mistaken (or at least a resource they used in sourcing their kit).

I just thought I would pass on this information for those considering a hub motor powered "Mid Drive".

I used to think the Stoke Monkey was kind of crazy since it doesn't freewheel if you're on the throttle, but it's just an adjustment to get used to the idea of only using the throttle while pedaling, and it truly is IMHO what the cyclone system would be if it was a little better thought out. Their system using the bicycle's gearing through a LH drive is slow and low powered by most of our standards, but that is the very definition of a cargo bike, slow, heavy and I would say normally cumbersome.

I have been around town seeing Xtracycle equipped bikes and even with my motor, struggling to keep up! (this was an un-loaded bike of course!)

It's pretty amazing that even though it took a lot of pedaling, that he went up a 30% grade in San Fran with his cargo bike loaded to the max, total bike, rider and cargo weight of 480lbs, and most surprising of all, this is with nothing more than 36V and a 20A controller!

Just goes to show, it doesn't take a whole lot of power with the proper gearing!

One other point that the guy at Clever Cycles made ( I'm terrible at remembering names! ) is that on a coast to coast trip like I am planning, there is almost zero chance I will encounter roads as steep as the infamous 30% grades in San Fransisco unless I seek them out on side trips, and anything this steep would just about require me to be riding a bike with a longer wheelbase to be really comfortable.

 

[spinningmagnets]

I've considered a fast-winding version of the smaller Clyte 40X series, because of the smaller size being easier to fit, DD being quieter than the geared, and also I hoped to use a 3-speed disc-brake hub (Nexus, Sturmey, etc) as a 3-speed transmission.

Driving the left-side of the rear wheel, the intermediate 3-sp hub would allow the transmission freewheel to operate in its normal direction, and the 40X would also operate with its freewheel on the normal (right-hand) side. Doing it this way, would require the final drive chain from the trans to the wheels left-side disc flange to be "live" (operating all the time the rear wheel was moving).

Here's what I consider a great example of a mid-drive by rassy: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=18606

And here's my Full-suspension long-bike (not a mid-drive yet, but theres room for it!):
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=19131&start=0

 

[Rassy]

I used to think the Stoke Monkey was kind of crazy since it doesn't freewheel if you're on the throttle, but it's just an adjustment to get used to the idea of only using the throttle while pedaling,

I had read this on the Stoke Monkey site before doing my mid-drive trike, so initially I didn't put a freewheeling crank on it. Since I like to pedal almost all the time that part wasn't a problem, but on almost every ride I would do something that caused a big jerk. Of course it was always my fault, but not getting off the throttle fast enough before stopping, or getting back on the throttle after coasting for a while were the most common. Even caused the chain to come off a couple of times, a problem that has never happened since the freewheeling crank was installed.

In their ad they also said you would be "more in touch" with your motor, but IMHO I am just as much in touch with my motor since I am normally always applying some power to the pedals. So since the freewheel isn't actually being used most of the time the system "feels" exactly the same as though there was no freewheel.

I don't mean this as a criticism of the Stoke Monkey system, but to give another view based on experience to any DIY'er that is putting together a similar system.

I think it's cool that you got to talk with the folks at Clever Cycles.

 

[amberwolf]

That is some interesting info about the motor.

Regarding the non-FW cranks due to the leftside drive, that's kinda part of the things with CrazyBike2 that caused me problems *but* that I generally got used to very quickly once I built it. Only issues I really had were because of chain alignment due to frame flex (LOTS of torque on the powerchair motor I used), and because I never put a guard on the crank end of the chain and it ate some pants here and there.

Some common sense stuff I coudl've done would've fixed those issues, but I did not; that's why CB2 has the hubmotor on it right now, and I'm still working out/pondering the "right" way to do the chain drive.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Yeah, it's great to hear from experiences from others, thanks for sharing guys!

I am still glad that I have a freewheel on my pedal chain, but the fact that so many are crazy about fixed gear bikes shows that it can be done, but I have to believe it's as much about style these days as any, but at the same time, I can appreciate that some ride them for their pure simplicity and lack of parts to fail and be replaced (freewheels) but not anything I have a desire to ride! :wink:

I'm glad to hear about the problems associated with non-freewheeling cranks and a stoke monkey style mid-drive, I wonder if it might have been poor examples of freewheeling cranks that kept Clever Cycle from going that route, or maybe they just saw the potential for more failure points, the standard answer they give is "freewheeling cranks presents more problems than solutions" and I have yet to hear of any of them give any more details than that.

 

[tfahrner]

Dude, what secrets? I'm the Stokemonkey guy. All this info has been public for years (though not always presented front-and-center, because after all we're focused on offering sort of a turnkey Xtracycle accessory instead of serving as a parts and idea source for esteemed DIY-ers). It isn't true that we'd have used a 9C if it would have fit, because 9C/amped didn't exist in 2003 when we started this project. It's just that 9C's seem to be somewhat better made motors than Clyte, a little lighter, a little better machined, and a little more efficient. Clyte was also very accommodating of our small-volume special machining needs, providing numerous one-offs quickly to help us develop the product. Also, as I told you, Stokemonkeys have been everything from 409 through 406, depending on power requirements and gearing. 407 is just the current default.

Freewheeling cranks ... It's not that we hate the idea or see no reason some might want them. It's that driving a left side chainring, with only a single $15 off-the-shelf freewheel in the whole system, is much simpler (=robust, cheap, flexible) than alternatives, and once we tried it, we lost all interest in fixing what, to our thinking, wasn't broken.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Dude, what secrets? I'm the Stokemonkey guy. All this info has been public for years (though not always presented front-and-center, because after all we're focused on offering sort of a turnkey Xtracycle accessory instead of serving as a parts and idea source for esteemed DIY-ers). It isn't true that we'd have used a 9C if it would have fit, because 9C/amped didn't exist in 2003 when we started this project. It's just that 9C's seem to be somewhat better made motors than Clyte, a little lighter, a little better machined, and a little more efficient. Clyte was also very accommodating of our small-volume special machining needs, providing numerous one-offs quickly to help us develop the product. Also, as I told you, Stokemonkeys have been everything from 409 through 406, depending on power requirements and gearing. 407 is just the current default.

Freewheeling cranks ... It's not that we hate the idea or see no reason some might want them. It's that driving a left side chainring, with only a single $15 off-the-shelf freewheel in the whole system, is much simpler (=robust, cheap, flexible) than alternatives, and once we tried it, we lost all interest in fixing what, to our thinking, wasn't broken.

Ok, you caught me!

No secrets, just wanted to make a eye catching title really.

Thanks for chiming in and clearing things up! I am really impressed at what your system is able to do, especially at 36V! Most of us here have heavy throttle thumbs, so 36V seems a little "slow" to us :wink: .

I agree, simple is better, but for me, the RH drive with Nuvinci as transmission is my preference as I have a huge dislike for derailleurs in that I have to THINK ahead and shift ahead, when I start to get tired near the end of the ride, it's nice to just crank the Nuvinci to the gear I need whether I am stopped or not, and then when I learned that I could get a simple off the shelf adapter from Staton Inc:

http://www.staton-inc.com/store/pro...0H_sprocket_and_freewheel_adaptor-543-38.html

And could use the Nuvinci as both my solution to annoying derailleurs ( have had several, dialed them in, and never been happy since I can't stand even the slightest rubbing of the chain on them, and I ask them to use a much larger range of gears than they are designed, so they always made noise somewhere :lol: ) AND could be used as a mid-drive transmission for an electric motor, I was hooked! 8)

I didn't mean to speak for you, I was just giving my impressions from talking to you and others at your store, I met you (assuming this is the same person) yesterday shorting before closing and was picking your brain on different ideas for my RH drive, and I am very greatfull for your help!

 

[tfahrner]

I agree, simple is better, but for me, the RH drive with Nuvinci as transmission is my preference as I have a huge dislike for derailleurs in that I have to THINK ahead and shift ahead, when I start to get tired near the end of the ride, it's nice to just crank the Nuvinci to the gear I need whether I am stopped or not,...

I've been using Stokemonkey with internally geared hubs for 8 years now, including Nuvinci and Rohloff. There's no correlation of LH drive with derailleur systems.

 

[pdf]

I myself own a Stokemonkey and have around 2900 miles on it now. Maybe riding styles are different for a recumbent. I've never had any of the problems people cite with the non-freewheeling crank. No jerking drive, no derailer problems, etc. Athough if you feel like it would be better with one, I see no reason not to add one. Anyway, I'd suggest testing a Stokemonkey set up and see what you think. When I tested one, I was actually in the store to buy a DD hubbie. After riding the SM, I was sold. I appreciate the fact that nearly any part with any chance of breaking can be replaced with an off the shelf bike shop part. The only thing that can't is the bracket, but if you break that, you'll have bigger problems.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

I agree, simple is better, but for me, the RH drive with Nuvinci as transmission is my preference as I have a huge dislike for derailleurs in that I have to THINK ahead and shift ahead, when I start to get tired near the end of the ride, it's nice to just crank the Nuvinci to the gear I need whether I am stopped or not,...

I've been using Stokemonkey with internally geared hubs for 8 years now, including Nuvinci and Rohloff. There's no correlation of LH drive with derailleur systems.

I'm just speaking of my dislike of derailleurs in general, not in the context of the stoke monkey.

I have been using DD hubs and a geared hub from Amped Bikes for about a year and I have also been dabbling in Friction drives for a few months, and I decided to use my 9 X 7 mainly because I had it already, and I wanted to keep the chains moving closer to bicycle speeds and also use as much off the shelf bicycle components as possible, so it was a natural choice for me.

I live in Oregon City, and there is a decent 2 mile long hill that I have to climb to get home most any day that I ride, so I am just talking about the fact that I really enjoy the Nuvinci because it has a very strong reliable CVPT, and I am a gear geek, I always want to be in as close an ideal gear as possible, and it really does that well.

Have you seen where people are putting upwards of 8HP to the Nuvinci hubs on the gas powered bicycles? And this isn't counting momentary spikes coming from their engines!

There is one guy on Motorbicycling.com that has discovered at 9HP the Nuvinci isn't damaged, but just starts to slip!

I never plan on putting too terribly much power to my touring/cargo bike, I'm more interested in peak efficiency and simplicity, and some day I will probably have an Xtracycle attached to this or another bike frame, but for now I am seeing what I can do with keeping a standard 26" bike wheelbase and making a comfortable touring bike that can also handle the extra weight of an E-Bike kit & battery.

My only concern now is weather or not I will be able to as easily mesh my pedaling cadence with the motor, I am switching from a 17T drive cog on the hub motor to a 13T for more low gearing, but ultimately I should be able to match the throttle to my cadence, and it's pretty easy to know when the motor is not at an efficient speed and to adjust accordingly, just hope I will be able to stay on my front middle chain ring as much as I am able to now.

 

[tfahrner]

I myself own a Stokemonkey and have around 2900 miles on it now. Maybe riding styles are different for a recumbent. I've never had any of the problems people cite with the non-freewheeling crank. No jerking drive, no derailer problems, etc.

Thanks pdf; I've enjoyed following your reports here over time. I'm not saying Stokemonkey is for everybody, but I can say that I've never heard these specific complaints of jerky cranks or whatnot with actual Stokemonkey systems. If you take some other motor, controller, throttle, gearing setup, maybe with very different torque/speed curves, and call it "Stokemonkey," and complain, well, I can't speak to that... sometimes I wish people would come up with their own name to describe these things instead of using the trademark name of our patented product, especially if they want to knock the concept. Not all motors driving chainrings are Stokemonkeys, is all!

 

[tfahrner]

There is one guy on Motorbicycling.com that has discovered at 9HP the Nuvinci isn't damaged, but just starts to slip!

I can get Nuvinci to slip for a quarter revolution with just Stokemonkey (and a good stomp) starting a 550-lb load (gross) from a dead stop up a moderate grade.

My only concern now is weather or not I will be able to as easily mesh my pedaling cadence with the motor, I am switching from a 17T drive cog on the hub motor to a 13T for more low gearing, but ultimately I should be able to match the throttle to my cadence, and it's pretty easy to know when the motor is not at an efficient speed and to adjust accordingly, just hope I will be able to stay on my front middle chain ring as much as I am able to now.

Suggest you figure out the unloaded speed of the motor, and gear it so your normal cadence range falls in the 50-80% range of the motor's. Closer to 50% for high power; closer to 80% for highest efficiency. Never make the motor turn at less than 50% its unloaded speed at full throttle.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

There is one guy on Motorbicycling.com that has discovered at 9HP the Nuvinci isn't damaged, but just starts to slip!

I can get Nuvinci to slip for a quarter revolution with just Stokemonkey (and a good stomp) starting a 550-lb load (gross) from a dead stop up a moderate grade.

My only concern now is weather or not I will be able to as easily mesh my pedaling cadence with the motor, I am switching from a 17T drive cog on the hub motor to a 13T for more low gearing, but ultimately I should be able to match the throttle to my cadence, and it's pretty easy to know when the motor is not at an efficient speed and to adjust accordingly, just hope I will be able to stay on my front middle chain ring as much as I am able to now.

Suggest you figure out the unloaded speed of the motor, and gear it so your normal cadence range falls in the 50-80% range of the motor's. Closer to 50% for high power; closer to 80% for highest efficiency. Never make the motor turn at less than 50% its unloaded speed at full throttle.

I am guessing that the point where you are getting it to slip is with the Nuvinci N171 (the second production model, not the initial N170?) is also with a heavy load on the cargo bike?

The reason I ask, is because I had bought a couple Dicta Freewheels used and both of them were slipping quite a bit, and finally bought a new 3/32 or 1/8 chain compatible Shimano Free Wheel (since I might go to a 1/8 chain for pedaling too, but now I am using 3/32) and I swear I have felt it slip going up the 12% grade here in Oregon City, but only briefly and only a couple times. I probably have about 400 miles on my hub just this week.

IIRC when the Nuvinci is new it has been known to slip a little during it's initial "brake-in" so I'm very curious to learn from your experience!

 

[tfahrner]

I am guessing that the point where you are getting it to slip is with the Nuvinci N171 (the second production model, not the initial N170?) is also with a heavy load on the cargo bike?

The reason I ask, is because I had bought a couple Dicta Freewheels used and both of them were slipping quite a bit, and finally bought a new 3/32 or 1/8 chain compatible Shimano Free Wheel (since I might go to a 1/8 chain for pedaling too, but now I am using 3/32) and I swear I have felt it slip going up the 12% grade here in Oregon City, but only briefly and only a couple times. I probably have about 400 miles on my hub just this week.

IIRC when the Nuvinci is new it has been known to slip a little during it's initial "brake-in" so I'm very curious to learn from your experience!

I'm not sure whether it was N170 or 171 -- one of those. I have the N360 on an unassisted bike: much better. There was a White Industries freewheel on the N17x, so unlikely related. Near certain it was the balls slipping internally. Yes, the bike had my whole family aboard, climbing the local volcano. Whole lotta torque...

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

I am guessing that the point where you are getting it to slip is with the Nuvinci N171 (the second production model, not the initial N170?) is also with a heavy load on the cargo bike?

The reason I ask, is because I had bought a couple Dicta Freewheels used and both of them were slipping quite a bit, and finally bought a new 3/32 or 1/8 chain compatible Shimano Free Wheel (since I might go to a 1/8 chain for pedaling too, but now I am using 3/32) and I swear I have felt it slip going up the 12% grade here in Oregon City, but only briefly and only a couple times. I probably have about 400 miles on my hub just this week.

IIRC when the Nuvinci is new it has been known to slip a little during it's initial "brake-in" so I'm very curious to learn from your experience!

I'm not sure whether it was N170 or 171 -- one of those. I have the N360 on an unassisted bike: much better. There was a White Industries freewheel on the N17x, so unlikely related. Near certain it was the balls slipping internally. Yes, the bike had my whole family aboard, climbing the local volcano. Whole lotta torque...

Mount Tabor Park?