common chinese controllers

j bjork

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The most common chinese controllers at the moment seems to be the cheap XLD like this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Steuergerat-1500W-36V-48V-50A-Motor-Brushless-Controller-fur-E-Bike-E-Scooter/382515102429 or the a bit more expensive sine wave hallomotor (risun motor?) like this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/EU-DUTY-FREE-Hallomotor-36V48V-1500W-Ebike-Controller-Sine-Wave-45A-Regenerative/173352937710
But I don´t find much info on them here on the forum.
Is it possible to program any of them? Is it possible to change the voltige like this sunwin controllers with just some soldering and maby change mosfets and capacitors? https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=71128
 
With sufficient knowledge, time and money, about anything is possible.

The question I was asking when I started my quest to answer a similar question a few weeks ago, was based on the more practical. Like what can the average layman, one without a degree in electrical/electronic engineering, expect when trying to configure one of the mentioned controllers to meet his needs?

What I found is that there is a LOT to this!

My reading has shown that there are a lot of options, but to keep them as simple as possible, one would want to select a controller that is either LCD3 or Cycle Analyst (CA) display compatible at minimum. Maybe you would prefer Bluetooth? Anyway, reading through the LCD3 and CA owner/user manuals for each should give you an idea of how much control either give the owner. Note that the controller is generally set up for one or the other displays - not both. They are not compatible. Myself, I think the CA may be a bit much for my needs.

Not sure what the issue is, but it seems like information regarding these controllers, that's shared in layman terminology, is pretty scarce. That, or it's spread out over such a wide area it's very difficult to even do successful searches. Can't help but wonder if this technology is that new, where nobody has written much about it?
 
AHicks, We are working with my partners at the University, for a system table to read and send info to the different controllers.

One of the things that has been more difficult for us is to understand how many typs of different controllers are out there, at least the most important.

As you said, the most common seems to be the the one that fits the CA and the one that fits the KT LCD3.

Doing some research with the new CA V3, it seems that in the new controllers, they just need to plug the CA DP conector with the 6 wires between the CA and the controller and then any other connection is just between the CA and the sensors, so the controller does not play any more around, something that is very useful.

But we saw also that if you want to connect new CA V3 with some older controllers you need to start playing with some bridges between the CA DP conector and the throttle conector... So, information is like a mess..

If you have some more clear idea about all of this we will be thankfull.

Regards
 
AHicks said:
one would want to select a controller that is either LCD3 or Cycle Analyst (CA) display compatible at minimum.

All systems are CA compatible, by using the CA-SA version, rather than CA-DP.

Connecting the CA to any controller with a throttle input is documented on the http://ebikes.ca product page for the CA, both in how to wire it and how to configure it.
 
Thanks for your answer! I have found that information on the web.

What I do not understand is how it work, I should connect the battery + and - to the red and black of course, then it got to the controller + and -, and the throttle signal and speedo signal to the center black wire?, then from the other side it comes a 6pin JST-SM that will send all the info I need?

So that way I can throw a way the KT LCD3 screen and use only the cycle analyst?

Sorry for all this questions but this is the first time we are getting some light on this situation and so comes out lot of questions..

Regards
 
It is all on the product info page, and links from that page. It might be a lot of reading, but it is there.

The CA does not replace the LCD on a programmable controller, becuase it cannot program the controller, or display any information from the controller itself. If you want to do that, you'd have to look up the threads by Casainho and Stancecoke / etc.
 
And there lies the issue, for me anyway. Casainho, is obviously a very knowledgeable fellow, and has posted to strings that are HUNDREDS of pages long, all containing highly technical information not many "commoners" are going to be able to follow. Thinking referencing his writings, in total, is going to lead to frustration by myself as well as others.

I do thank you for the clarification on the CA controllers, that they are not able to configure a controller, and there is a version that can read LCD3 compatible. Weeks of reading to date, and I missed both those details.... -Al
 
AHicks said:
And there lies the issue, for me anyway. Casainho, is obviously a very knowledgeable fellow, and has posted to strings that are HUNDREDS of pages long, all containing highly technical information not many "commoners" are going to be able to follow. Thinking referencing his writings, in total, is going to lead to frustration by myself as well as others.

I do thank you for the clarification on the CA controllers, that they are not able to configure a controller, and there is a version that can read LCD3 compatible. Weeks of reading to date, and I missed both those details.... -Al

Have you visited this website? Things here seem to be more "how to" oriented.

https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbucket.io/windows_instructions/index.html
 
AHicks said:
And there lies the issue, for me anyway. Casainho, is obviously a very knowledgeable fellow, and has posted to strings that are HUNDREDS of pages long, all containing highly technical information not many "commoners" are going to be able to follow. Thinking referencing his writings, in total, is going to lead to frustration by myself as well as others.
I was replying to the other fellow, who appears to be trying to develop an LCD3 replacement. If so, then all of that information is very useful to such development, even if he does not wish to directly use the LCD3 and the already-in-progress firmware, because he can read about how it was developed, and then work on his own version. :)

FWIW, I coudln't really follow Casainho's development progress, either--but for those that are developing things, they should be able to. If they can't, they're going to have to learn to, to be able to do it themselves. ;)

If all they want is just an existing product to do a specific thing, well, they'll have to state the exact specifics they want it to do for others to be able to help them find something that will do that.


I do thank you for the clarification on the CA controllers, that they are not able to configure a controller, and there is a version that can read LCD3 compatible.
There is no version that can read LCD3 "compatible". Only the controller designed for the LCD3 can read the LCD3, and vice-versa.

All the CA3 does is display information gathered via the shunt and speed sensors, which can be either the ones in a controller already using the CA3-D if the controlelr already has a DP plug, or for *any* controller / system whehter or not it has a DP plug just use the CA3-SA version.

Neither version reads anything from the controller, or talks to the controller in any way.

If you have a torque sensor it's compatible with it can display that too, though you'll probalby have to figure out the wiring and make a connector for it that matches the CA's torque sensor plug. Same with PAS wheel.

If you want to have the CA limit things (instead of doing it in the controller via the LCD3 or whatever display your controller comes with), then it can do that, too, if you set it up per the guide linked on the product page. It's not hard to do but it is a step-by-step process that you *have* to do *all* the steps of, in order, per the guide, and not skip around, if you want to be certain of what your settings are going to do without lots of "random" experimentation.
 
[/quote]

Have you visited this website? Things here seem to be more "how to" oriented.

https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbucket.io/windows_instructions/index.html
[/quote]

Thanks for your help here (again). I just went to that site, and quickly lost interest at the idea of removing the controller board to allow the soldering of a lead leading to the outside of the controller. -Al
 
Amberwolf,
I am not looking for info regarding how to improve or change anything myself. Comments earlier were regarding the scarcity of good information regarding the KT stuff. On the whole I'm really pretty happy with the LCD3 and KT controller setup - IF - they were working as advertised.

My personal quest is more along the lines of troubleshooting a couple of issues. The first is regarding cruise control. It's SUPPOSED to be able to engage at speeds as low as 7 kmh. My issue, with 2 different (but similar)controllers now, is that although the cruise is fully functional, it will not engage at speeds below 11mph/17.7kmh.

I've written Kunteng directly, who ended up responding (after many specifics were given over a series of notes) with something to the effect that there were too many variables for them to conclude anything specific. They basically wanted to know if the parameter enabling the cruise was set properly (it was), even after explaining the cruise was functional. The issue was the unusually high engagement speed.

Now working with Risun service. Their most recent request, again after a series of notes asking about setup parameters, is to send them a video - with no details regarding what they want to see on the video. Still pondering there.....

Additionally, this latest Risun controller seems to have an issue with it's regen function - as in it doesn't work. Again, parameters are set correctly, there is a brake icon that lights up when the brakes are applied (confirming proper wiring connections), but there is NO braking effect. The 4 bar battery meter should flash when the regen is active (showing the battery is being charged), and that isn't working either. Though the seller said the controller was equipped with regen, I'm wondering if that's a variable. They have the exact model, with serial number, and have yet to say one way or the other.

All other functions available on the LCD3 have been tested and are working as expected - on both controllers.

Basic setup is a 36/48v 12 mosfet KT controller running on a 48v battery. 1st is rated a 15/30 amps, the 2nd 17/35. The second differs from the first in that it features LCD display control for headlights. Bike is PAS and thumb throttle equipped. LCD3 display, and 1500w DD rear hub motor w/hall sensors (there is no external speed sensor). Motor appears identical/very similar to the Leafbike motor, but the guy that sold it to me doesn't know who the manf is. He did mention that he sells motors to Leafbike on occasion.... -Al
 
amberwolf, first of all, thanks a lot for your answers.

I´m almost an Electronic Engineer, and for one of our courses we are trying to develop a system to reed and interact with the controllers.
We now there is some info, but if we didn't know what we were looking for it was impossible to interpret the info.

So far, and please correct me if I´m wrong:

Dividing it at two big groups, there is the controllers that are programable (always talking about general controllers and not private companies develops) and the ones that are not programable.
And as we understand, the programables work with the KT LCD3, and the not programables works great with the CA, and it shows anything we want about the bike info.

Then you said, that we can also connect the CA by a SA Shunt to the programable controllers, and also if I didn't got you wrong, there is a chance to also have the CA "limiting" the programable controller.
Couple of questions here:
1)When you say limiting, it is the CA doing the C and P parameters configuration?
2)Is there any configuration where the CA works alone with the programable controller and don't need the LCD3 to turn on bike or any other thing?

Then you said something about the "already in progress firmware" about the LCD3, is it information at any where? Because we will be more than happy to reed it, but I think the LCD3 is not open source.

Then I will check out about the Casainho's posts, since from your comments I understand it is quite technical.

This develop is only for university use, and in some cases it could help to develop some new features for some wheelchair develops and stuff.
 
ddk said:
@AHicks> do you have the LCD3 manual?

Just wondering because all those issues you describe are addressed by parameter and controller settings via the LCD3.
the LCD3 manual is here:
https://bmsbattery.com/index.php?controller=attachment&id_attachment=5

So which parameter would I set to correct for a way too high minimum engagement speed on an otherwise fully functional cruise control? As mentioned above it won't engage until the bike is moving 2.5 times faster than they say it should have to?
The fact it's working at all should inform the parameter is correct, and the fact I'm familiar with how it's engaged (by holdng the "down" button for a couple of seconds) should be apparent for the same reason.

Or, regarding the regen, after trying parameters c-13=1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, and getting NO braking, despite the fact the brake circuit is positively active, as proven by the brake icon between the time and battery icons lighting up each time a brake handle is pulled? Which parameter would you suggest changing to correct that issue?

Bottom line, I really do appreciate the help. I'm a little thin skinned though as these parameter settings have been gone over and over again and again by the manf's techs who are not taking the time to get their head wrapped around what has been written in similar notes sent to them either. The ONLY help I've received from them so far has been to confirm the parameter settings I'm using are correct and the wiring connections are as they should be.

It would appear that at this point, it's time to start throwing parts at it - a practice I've fought long and hard against all my life. Even when I get past that concept, I have replaced the controller already. The problem with the high cruise engagement speed remains, unchanged, with the second controller, and though the regen worked fine on the first controller, it does not work with the new 2nd controller. A step backwards I wasn't expecting, as there were NO other changes made anywhere. I unplugged the 1st controller, plugged in the replacement, and lost the regen......

And yes, I've tried a reset (c10=y) on several occasions. No luck there either.
Frustrating....
 
high engagement on cruise could be caused by wheel size parameter
...but since you did do everything as outlined in the manual I doubt you skipped that setting and to be honest, I think you probably have a controller with a bad processor, bad programming or it's just being naughty.
I vote for naughty :pancake:

My personal solution would be to purchase a new KT and I'd likely choose a different source, like a company that would unquestionably guarantee the products they sell. (without shipping charges, which is the new shocking re-stocking fee)
BTW I have a 12FET KT36 where cruise, brakes and all it's other stuff works as advertised.
Never mind the factoid that I don't care for how it works too much...
 
Maybe noteworthy is the fact that when I did change to a slightly different controller (from Risun, first was from NBpower, who really tried to help, but was in over his head), the parameters in use on the previous controller were STILL in place when I powered up the new controller. This would tell a commoner, somebody like myself, that those parameter setting are stored in the LCD3 proper - NOT the controller! For whatever that's worth....
 
What I can tell you about the regenerative breaking is that, not all the controllers that are programable with the C and P parameters has the internal circuit to do the regenerative breaking.
 
Which would confirm my suspicion, but you would think that Risun, given exact model and serial of controller sold by them, would say something when asked about that?
 
Yes, at least I had a similar situation with achinase brand and they answered me that the controller didn't had that option inside..
 
joamanya said:
And as we understand, the programables work with the KT LCD3,

It's much much more complicated than that.


There's a whole world of motor controllers that's been developing for years, so there's many many kinds and ways of doing things, many still in use.

Programmables fall into many different categories. Only the KT controllers work with the KT LCD3, and only specific KT controllers. Not all KT controllers are programmable, and even the ones that are don't all work with the LCD3 (or other LCDs). Probably depends on when they were made, as well as who they were made for.


There are many manufacturers, and they each have their own way of doing things, their own communications protocols, etc.

Then there are OEMs, who build bikes and/or kits or systems, and they may custom-order stuff from controller manufacturers with completley different setups than what you would normally see. Sometimes those systems don't get used and get sold by other vendors as individual parts, and they're not necessarily compatible with the other stuff made by the same manufacturer.

There are also controllers that have LCD or LED (or other) displays that are not programmable at all, either via the display or via serial connection, etc.

There are also controllers that are programmable, but have no display of any kind. Generally these require a serial connection to a computer of some type. Some of these are only programmable at the factory, and some of them can be done by the user, mostly because the software for the computer end of things is not generally publicly available, but sometimes leaks out, or someone develops something that works on certain controllers (like Anpaza's XPD here on ES).




Then you said, that we can also connect the CA by a SA Shunt to the programable controllers, and also if I didn't got you wrong, there is a chance to also have the CA "limiting" the programable controller.
Couple of questions here:
1)When you say limiting, it is the CA doing the C and P parameters configuration?
No. The CA does NOT communicate in any way with the controllers. It can't, because there are many many ways controllers do that.

See the http://ebikes.ca product page for the Cycle Analyst for how it does what it does, including connection diagrams, wiring, setup, etc. It's all there, but you have to go read it.

2)Is there any configuration where the CA works alone with the programable controller and don't need the LCD3 to turn on bike or any other thing?
Entirely depends on the system. Some controllers require their display and buttons to do things with the controller, and without htem you lose all those features. Some can be bypassed to at least turn them on, but they will always turn on at their default settings, whatever those were set to at the factory. All depends on which controller you have. They're all different.

If you don't know about your controller, you'd have to either experiment to find out, or contact the manufacturer of the controller, or look around the forum (or the web) and see if anyone else has already done the experiments. Since there are at least thousands, probably more like hundreds of thousands or more, different controllers out there, it's more likely than not that the specific info isn't yet out there anywhere--but if the brand is the same as some already-documented one, it's possible that generalities apply, if not specifics.


Then you said something about the "already in progress firmware" about the LCD3, is it information at any where? Because we will be more than happy to reed it, but I think the LCD3 is not open source.
See the threads by Casainho and Stancecoke here on ES. Or the link Wturber provided. It's a lot of reading, but you'll see exactly what's being done and how.
 
AHicks said:
Which would confirm my suspicion, but you would think that Risun, given exact model and serial of controller sold by them, would say something when asked about that?
Unfortunately most sellers, even "knowledgeable ones", have no idea what specifcally each of their parts are capable of, because they get many different batches of whatever they carry, and they don't keep track of any of the stuff they get in or sell. They sell a batch, get the next one in, sell that one, and change their website (maybe) to reflect the changes between batches (probably only after customers complain that specs on the stuff they got didn't match what they ordered off the website).

The manufacturers themselves change their products without any notice to those sellers, too, so the sellers probably don't even know there *are* differences. Bafang is terrible about doing this to their customers, as just one example.

I wish it wasn't like that, but it is.
 
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