Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

[Marc S.]

Nice!

PhaseWarmUp.app seems to work fine on my 13" MacBookPro from mid 2009 and OS-X 10.8.5 (Mountain Lion)!
Now it seems, I have to order a Phaserunner... Dude, you cost me money!

Since currently a cheap 15FET/"45A" Sunwin controller is hooked-up to the Bafang BPM (apparently the same BPM version you tested for the Hub Motor Simulator), I've no idea how many phase amps the BPM sees. The CA3 showed 54A battery amps at around 60 volts (15s Konion V3) when I hooked-up the throttle directly to the controller... Interestingly the blue planetary gears held up fine.

Well, since a coloured Phaserunner option isn't on the table, it can be tucked under the seat (where it will still see some air flow), mounted to a sheet of 200mmx80mmx5mm aluminium. If it still gets hot, I'll add some heat sinks.


Actually, I totally forgot to say thanks for the CA3 front enclosure you send me a couple of weeks ago...
Sorry for that and Thank you!

 

[macribs]

Talking about "power able to handle" is the wrong language, it's really just the phase amps that causes heating and not the power flowing to the motor.

I think what he was really asking is what is max peak power from the phaserunner, if that is the case 90v x 96 A = 8640 peak power out.
Is there any plans to do a version of the phaserunner with twice the FET's for pushing past 15 kw peak? Would be a nice choice for many motors, both hubs and mid motors.

And Justin could you pls tell me what is max erpm for the phaserunner, this question has been asked multiple times in this thread without being answered.
Will phaserunner work with high RPM =10.000 RPM motors? Could phaserunner do 4500 RPM?

 

[justin_le]

Talking about "power able to handle" is the wrong language, it's really just the phase amps that causes heating and not the power flowing to the motor.

I think what he was really asking is what is max peak power from the phaserunner, if that is the case 90v x 96 A = 8640 peak power out.

Ugg, that's got to be the most misleading way to give a numeric spec though. It's like the air compressor or shop vac industries rating "peak horsepower" by the surge current flowing in at startup when the motor is flipped on from a stall. 8640 watts doesn't mean much of anything and grossly misrepresents what I would consider something suitable for systems running in the 1-2 kW power range. Please don't anyone look at this number and think anything of it.

Is there any plans to do a version of the phaserunner with twice the FET's for pushing past 15 kw peak? Would be a nice choice for many motors, both hubs and mid motors.

. Yeah I agree that 12 fets could be fun for some people, but I'm more interested in going the other direction for our next variant and making an even tinier controller suitable for 250-500 watt ebikes and electric longboards motors.

And Justin could you pls tell me what is max erpm for the phaserunner, this question has been asked multiple times in this thread without being answered.

I thought I answered that pretty well much earlier in the thread. See this post here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=981061#p981061

If my memory is right at one point I took it to 90K eRPM, but talking to the engineers at ASI they really didn't recommend going beyond 60K eRPM. Even if the motor is spinning, it doesn't mean that it's driving it well and at those speeds the commutation frequency is getting very close to the PWM frequency.

Will phaserunner work with high RPM =10.000 RPM motors? Could phaserunner do 4500 RPM?

That would of course depend on the pole pair count of the motor. If it's 12 magnets (6 pole pairs) like a lot of RC motors, then no problem at all. If it's 20+ pole pairs like an ebike hub motor, then no.

 

[justin_le]

We got it! Though we only have a really old mac hardware to test it on so if any people have newer machines it would be great if you can confirm that it works OK.

It seems to work great on a current model Macbook Pro

Sweet, thanks for the confirmation. By chance could one of you guys do a screen capture of how the GUI looks on a current model macbook so I can see if all the elements are laid out as intended? And also confirm that on the "basic setup" page if yo you do the mouse over on any of the parameter names that a tooltip window pops up explaining what the parameter is?

 

[Jason3]

Sweet, thanks for the confirmation. By chance could one of you guys do a screen capture of how the GUI looks on a current model macbook so I can see if all the elements are laid out as intended? And also confirm that on the "basic setup" page if yo you do the mouse over on any of the parameter names that a tooltip window pops up explaining what the parameter is?

Sure thing, and yes - tool tips appear (only on the "Basic Setup" page).

Is 90v input the upper limit? I'm guessing it is since "Max Regen Voltage End" can't be higher than 90v.

Best regards,

Jason

 

[cycborg]

Yeah I agree that 12 fets could be fun for some people, but I'm more interested in going the other direction for our next variant and making an even tinier controller suitable for 250-500 watt ebikes and electric longboards motors.

Agreed. High power tends to dominate the discussion on ES but given legal restrictions as well as riding preferences, there ought to be space for an FOC option for bikes that ride more like bikes than motorcycles. There are plenty of high-power options already - Adaptto, Sabvoton, Kelly, and even ASI's BAC 2000. But at the low end the only option is Kelly's smallest model, which is still pretty bulky compared to the PR, not to mention PR's hypothetical little brother.

 

[macribs]

Yeah I agree that 12 fets could be fun for some people, but I'm more interested in going the other direction for our next variant and making an even tinier controller suitable for 250-500 watt ebikes and electric longboards motors.

Agreed. High power tends to dominate the discussion on ES but given legal restrictions as well as riding preferences, there ought to be space for an FOC option for bikes that ride more like bikes than motorcycles. There are plenty of high-power options already - Adaptto, Sabvoton, Kelly, and even ASI's BAC 2000. But at the low end the only option is Kelly's smallest model, which is still pretty bulky compared to the PR, not to mention PR's hypothetical little brother.

And for good reasons, higher power is not about bragging rights or over the top build. It is also about reliability, less stress on components, and the power to meet and tackle situations thrown your way. From steep climbs to snappy throttle response. /hi power vs low power

I am considering a very light weight build from scratch. As the weight goes down so does the frame real estate. And bulky controllers like sabvoton et al does not really fit what I have in mind. As this will be a mid drive possible controller could be solved by running dual motor and dual controllers, but I would love to see an option to use a single more high powered phaserunner.

Anyway it is all in my head yet, not even come to the drawing phase, neither on the back of a napkin or 3D renderings. And who knows what might be available before this idea materialize into some solid, can be there are bigger version of phaserunners or could be that there are other small foot print controllers but with higher power on the market by then.

 

[Marc S.]

Ok, ok... I ordered one.

Justin, do me a favor and please take your time with the stackable Grin Battery, will you?

 

[mountain biker]

sorry hate to ask but what are the phase amps? and i guesse your controller can change these or you can program them....what effect does that have on speed, torque at a certain speed and amps being pulled...meaning if you could change your phase amps from like 70 to say 35 what would be the effect...less power..more range because of the motor requiring less power. nothing too technical. if possible...just the facts.

 

[cycborg]

sorry hate to ask but what are the phase amps? and i guesse your controller can change these or you can program them....what effect does that have on speed, torque at a certain speed and amps being pulled...meaning if you could change your phase amps from like 70 to say 35 what would be the effect...less power..more range because of the motor requiring less power. nothing too technical. if possible...just the facts.

Phase current is just the current the controller supplies to the motor. The "phase" terminology comes from the three phases of the motor that share the current, but it might be easier to think of it just as "motor current".

Phase current is directly proportional to torque, at any speed. The PhaseRunner controls phase current directly, so that if you set the throttle at 25%, it will provide current to the motor at 25% of the phase current limit. The throttle setting determines the current, and the current determines the torque, so you'll also be at 25% of the maximum torque.

As for range, phase current limits don't have much of an effect here. As always, range is determined primarily by speed. At higher speeds, you'll need more torque and hence more phase current, but you're unlikely to run into your phase current limit unless you're accelerating hard or climbing a steep hill. Range is mainly about taking it slow. To a lesser extent, pedaling effort and aerodynamics. But usually not current limits.

 

[cavallo pazzo]

About power: this controller runs fine with 40 A batt current. For me, in 14s it's around 2 kW peak, no heat issue, fine. By going 20s it'll reach 3 kW but RPM will increase.
A Justin wrote, it's fine for 1-2 kW range, and if higher voltage than usual is possible it could be stretched to 3 kW, maybe a bit more with no foreseeable trouble.
Probably fine for most Ebikes, not for small motorcycles.

But once you install it, small size for that power range becomes impressive. Replacing a Grinfineon 40 A by this small baby and staying in the same performance range is surprising.
I wouldn't want anything bigger now I touched this one.

 

[Marc S.]

My Phaserunner arrived yesterday.

Today, I connected the Phaserunner with a CAv3, a 36V battery and a Bafang BPM2 (code 11) on my 'test rig'.
Autotune went fine.

First issue:
The Phaserunner red status LED continuesly blinks at a 6 times interval ('communication timeout' by the BAC500 manual) ?

Second issue:
When the throttle is connected to the CAv3 and the CAv3 connected to the Phaserunner, it does run the motor. Sort of...

In the PhaserunnerWarmUp software, I can read this:
Motor starts at 1.1V throttle input voltage like programmed, but full speed is reached at 1.3V throttle input (not at 3.5V as programmed).

Same thing happens when the throttle is connected to the Phaserunner directly. Motor starts at 1.1V throttle and full speed is at 1.3V throttle.


If it helps, here is the current Phaserunner setup xml file:

 

[cycborg]

Does your "test rig" include any sort of load? If not, you are probably just seeing normal operation for a torque throttle. The throttle setting determines motor torque, not unloaded speed like a non-FOC controller. Full speed with no load requires barely any torque, only enough to overcome the motor's cogging and eddy current, so a throttle setting barely above minimum would be expected.

Not sure about the status LED. If it's communicating normally with the software, this could just be an uncleared status condition from an intermittent comms problem.

My Phaserunner arrived yesterday.

Today, I connected the Phaserunner with a CAv3, a 36V battery and a Bafang BPM2 (code 11) on my 'test rig'.
Autotune went fine.

First issue:
The Phaserunner red status LED continuesly blinks at a 6 times interval ('communication timeout' by the BAC500 manual) ?

Second issue:
When the throttle is connected to the CAv3 and the CAv3 connected to the Phaserunner, it does run the motor. Sort of...

In the PhaserunnerWarmUp software, I can read this:
Motor starts at 1.1V throttle input voltage like programmed, but full speed is reached at 1.3V throttle input (not at 3.5V as programmed).

Same thing happens when the throttle is connected to the Phaserunner directly. Motor starts at 1.1V throttle and full speed is at 1.3V throttle.


If it helps, here is the current Phaserunner setup xml file:

 

[Marc S.]

Ah! Thanks. Didn't thought of that.

No, my test rig doesn't put any load on the wheel. That probably explains the throttle behaviour.
I have to go to work now, further testing hast to wait till tomorrow (unfortunately).


Update:
Did some further testing today...
-When I grab the rim to slow the wheel down, throttle behaviour seems much more reasonable. Fine. Thanks for that tip!

-The Phaserunner LED still does its 6-times blinking thing. It doesn't matter if the USB cable or the CAv3 are attached, or not. Hmm...


Field Weakening:
Not sure about how much amps to set for field weakening.
Since the Phaserunner is driving a '500' watt Bafang BPM geared hub with steel planetary gears and ATF lubrication (the BPM/code 11 has 7,58 RPM/V if that helps in any way), I need a ball park figure how many Amps are a reasonable maximum setting for the motor. I like to push the BPM a bit, but don't need to fry it intentionally. 8)

Autotune in sensorless mode with a 36V battery set the Phaserunner to 33A battery current and 80A phase current.
I started with 5 amps field weakening, then 10A, 20A, 30A. Not much heat build-up detectable.

Switching to a 72V battery (still 33A battery current and 80A phase current), I started again with 5A, 10A... then ended up with 30A field weakening as well.

30A field weakening at 80V does speed things up considerably (82-83km/h for the 26" wheel). When I grab the rim at full speed, speed only slows down to 78km/h or so, at just under 8A battery current! Whow!
I actually wouldn't mind to install it in the trike with this setting, but get a funny feeling that 30A field weakening at 80V might be a tiny bit too much for the BPM...

Any advice?

 

[Marc S.]

For quite a moment, I thought I bricked the Phaserunner.

Looks like the software lost the connection while writing new settings to the Phaserunner. The plugs of the USB cable where securly into their sockets and nothing was moving.
After that, the software crashed each time it connected to the Phaserunner with both of my USB program cables (from the CAv3 and the Satiator).

Either with the CAv3 or direct throttle, motor wouldn'd turn, while the Phaserunner still did its 6-times blinking thing (it does that blinking since it came out of its plastic bag, btw).

Unplugged and replugged all connections several times. Trashed the app three times, rebooted the Mac and started with a new app. Same thing.
Unplugged everything and went for a smoke.

20min later the Phaserunner greeted me with its blinking LED, but didn't crash the software anymore. Battery setting values where way off.
The MaxRegen Start and MaxRegen End values couldn't be changed at first, but some writes to the Phaserunner restored access to the values after a while and the Phaserunner responded to the throttle again (still doing its 6-times blinking thing).

The last thing that didn't work correctly was Autotune:
Every time I started Autotune, the software would change from '48V battery' to '40V battery' behind the Autotune window and produce a 'over voltage' error message. It didn't matter what battery was connected (tried between 6s and 20s) or what battery voltage was set. Autotune always set the battery to a value where the actual battery voltage would produce an 'over voltage' error.

As a last straw attempt, I shortened the output power jack of the CAv3 with a pair of pliers like Justin showed in the YouTube video.
That set the Phaserunner straight, all settings are available, Autotune works again, no error messages.

The LED still does its pretty annoying 6-times blinking thing, though...

 

[iser]

My Phaserunner arrived yesterday.
If it helps, here is the current Phaserunner setup xml file:

I found something serious wrong in your .xml configuration file, and i will suggest u contacting Justin directly for remote debug.

 

[TRRRR]

Got my new phase runner running yesterday. I initially had some shuddering when applying the throttle after the bike was moving. This was solved by setting the current bandwidth parameter to zero (default is 1000), guess it must be some interference with my cycle analyst power control.

One question I have, the phaserunner comes with a plug to charge the battery, is there anyway to limit the charge voltage to a set amount similar to what the cycle satiator does? I do have a satiator at home but want to limit the charge to say 4.1V/cell at work using the stock charger that came with the battery. Does anyone know if there are options in the software to do this?

 

[MrDude_1]

Got my new phase runner running yesterday. I initially had some shuddering when applying the throttle after the bike was moving. This was solved by setting the current bandwidth parameter to zero (default is 1000), guess it must be some interference with my cycle analyst power control.

One question I have, the phaserunner comes with a plug to charge the battery, is there anyway to limit the charge voltage to a set amount similar to what the cycle satiator does? I do have a satiator at home but want to limit the charge to say 4.1V/cell at work using the stock charger that came with the battery. Does anyone know if there are options in the software to do this?

The controller does not regulate or have any control over the power going into the battery via the extra power plug. It simply is a connection to the battery through the internal shunt. Super simple, but required if you want to view your charging as regen, or if you want to connect lights or other accessories and see the draw on the Cycle Analyst.

 

[MrDude_1]

little DIY thread on how I made a heatsink for my phaserunner.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=82196

 

[Alan B]

Are folks using the PhaseRunner successfully with BMC geared hubmotors? A search didn't turn up any hits on that.

Thanks!

 

[cycborg]

Are folks using the PhaseRunner successfully with BMC geared hubmotors? A search didn't turn up any hits on that.

Thanks!

I used it with a MAC for a while before switching to a 9c, so that might be relevant. Search my posts in this thread from maybe the Aug-Sept 2015 time frame. Anything in particular you wanted to know?

 

[Marin]

Just received a Phaserunner controller, so exciting, maybe a bit over my head, I have been reading this thread and on the Grin site for months for education and information purposes.

I have a bike on the stand with a new QS 30H DD motor mounted, AFAIK motor is 1500w with 23 pole pairs, Phaserunner mounted on heatsink, 52v 11 AH Litium battery with 50 amp bms, V2 CA DPS, Half twist throttle.

All wired up ( throttle direct to controller) and spinning motor nicely but in reverse, Phase wires are Y-Y, G-G, B-B, switching G and B results in stuttering/shuddering.

Connect USB-TTL cable to Mac OS El Capitan with Phase Runner Suite and controller connects fine, Auto tune Static test makes motor buzz but then says motor not detected make sure all 3 phase wires are connected to motor windings.

I have tested connections may times but cannot get past this stage.

Motor works well with grinfineon and work well in reverse with phase runner so it seems connected.

I thought I’d give it a shot here before I bring it in for set up.

I will be using a CA V3 but didn’t want to scavenge it off another bike, I will if it helps to make this setup run.

Oh and 6 times blinking is constant.

 

[MrDude_1]

Just received a Phaserunner controller, so exciting, maybe a bit over my head, I have been reading this thread and on the Grin site for months for education and information purposes.

I have a bike on the stand with a new QS 30H DD motor mounted, AFAIK motor is 1500w with 23 pole pairs, Phaserunner mounted on heatsink, 52v 11 AH Litium battery with 50 amp bms, V2 CA DPS, Half twist throttle.

All wired up ( throttle direct to controller) and spinning motor nicely but in reverse, Phase wires are Y-Y, G-G, B-B, switching G and B results in stuttering/shuddering.

Connect USB-TTL cable to Mac OS El Capitan with Phase Runner Suite and controller connects fine, Auto tune Static test makes motor buzz but then says motor not detected make sure all 3 phase wires are connected to motor windings.

I have tested connections may times but cannot get past this stage.

Motor works well with grinfineon and work well in reverse with phase runner so it seems connected.

I thought I’d give it a shot here before I bring it in for set up.

I will be using a CA V3 but didn’t want to scavenge it off another bike, I will if it helps to make this setup run.

Oh and 6 times blinking is constant.

you have two options.. you could swap two phase wires and then go through the auto-tune thing all over again...

OR

Go in the software and reverse the direction. In BAC Door one of the option switches just gets changed from a 0 to 1. I forget what one and BACdoor isnt on this PC for me to look it up.. sorry.
With the new phase runner software, I have no idea how to do it. lol.

 

[Marin]

you have two options.. you could swap two phase wires and then go through the auto-tune thing all over again...

OR

Go in the software and reverse the direction. In BAC Door one of the option switches just gets changed from a 0 to 1. I forget what one and BACdoor isnt on this PC for me to look it up.. sorry.
With the new phase runner software, I have no idea how to do it. lol.

Thanks dude, I've tried swapping phase wires and while it doesn't spin in reverse it just shudders,

Afaik in the phaserunner autotune setup at the second screen there is an option to change direction, which is what I was hoping for, but I get stopped at the first screen

 

[MrDude_1]

you have two options.. you could swap two phase wires and then go through the auto-tune thing all over again...

OR

Go in the software and reverse the direction. In BAC Door one of the option switches just gets changed from a 0 to 1. I forget what one and BACdoor isnt on this PC for me to look it up.. sorry.
With the new phase runner software, I have no idea how to do it. lol.

Thanks dude, I've tried swapping phase wires and while it doesn't spin in reverse it just shudders,

Afaik in the phaserunner autotune setup at the second screen there is an option to change direction, which is what I was hoping for, but I get stopped at the first screen

Until you properly setup the controller for the motor, direction doesn't matter.