Configuring a Cyclone to climb 3500 ft at 7% grade

[ryan]

My dream trail is a 30 mile paved loop with 15 miles of climbing and 15 miles of downhill -- 1500ft climb over 5 miles, 2000ft down over 10 miles, then back around (another way but similar elevation).

I'm hoping to build my first eBike to make the trip without too much human help. Since it's my first eBike, and with limited fabrication skills, I was pointed to the Cyclone system for beginners.

Can you help me determine which motor/battery/controller would best fit this challenge?

Speed is not a priority, distance + torque is. If possible I'd also like to trail my 1yo son behind. Think tractor more than racecar.

I have a handful of old donor bikes to choose from, including a nice Marin DH and a steel hard tail. And if necessary I can craigslist a better alternative.

Thanks.

 

[spinningmagnets]

I "think" the 650W kit is the smallest motor they make that has a separate controller. Long steep climbs will develop a lot of heat, and the Cyclones that are 500W or less have a combined motor/controller to make the kit a little more streamlined. A smaller motor will get better range, and the separate motor and controller will allow both of them to run cooler.

I have also read that Cyclone carries aluminum fins that can be attached to the motor to help it shed heat, for a significant climb like you describe, I would certainly add the optional fins right away.

http://www.cyclone-tw.com/dc24.htm

 

[ryan]

Thanks spinningmagnets.

I'd like to better understand how a smaller motor increases range. How can I calculate or estimate the motor/battery requirements necessary for the challenge?

Assuming I got a 650w kit, what battery and controller options are necessary?

 

[enoob]

for engine size and range you can think like a gas powered bike. if i had a little 80cc motor bike and filled it up with go juice ill go a certain distance with a maximin top speed. if i take the same bike and repalce the motor with a big vtwin harley it would go alot faster BUT with that little fuel tank id lose on distance SO id have to get a bigger gas tank. now at this point you have to begin to think power to weight ratio . basically the lighter it is the faster and further you will go on a given amount of fuel (weather that be electric or fossil) .

that little dirt bike with a massive engine and bigger tank is getting heavy by now and not bieng made to handle that weight and power it will begin to fatigue and break on you . so do you chase the dragon and start beefing up the frame ? it will add weight and reduce speed + distance . trick is to ride the balance.

its a bike your looking at strapping all this to so whats your intention ? wanna be the fastest man on a peddle bike ? or want to cruise town every day without breaking down ?

The cyclone kit looks great for its overall design BUT thier maxed out kit is 1500w . astro does 4 times that or more. its the harley engine on the little moped. you would have to redo the drive train and add batteries and in the end is the bike capable of taking the weight and power ?

 

[John in CR]

I'm sure even the least powerful cyclone kit can handle that climb if running the power through the variable gearing of the derailleur. If you gear for a top speed in high gear of 20mph, then low gear shouldn't be an issue at those relatively modest grades. My fixed gearing hub motors don't have an issue with up to 8% continuous grades, and that's 240lb me and a 115lb bike and 15-20mph up the hills. Where you run into trouble is when you start bogging the motor down to low rpms at the motor, because efficiency plummets, so heat production skyrockets. If the kits have optional sprockets at the motor, it may be worth ordering an extra sprocket with a smaller tooth count just to be sure.

 

[spinningmagnets]

A larger motor can draw more amps than a small one. If you are using a CycleAnalyst (bike computer) you can limit the amps going to the motor, so I suppose that then it wouldn't matter what size motor you were using. When I mentioned the smaller motor getting better range, I was comparing the 650W to the larger 1,000W.

If you have a battery that can provide a high discharge rate without sagging, and you have a big motor while using maximum throttle, the battery can drain faster...but you will have lots of power during the ride. I've read good things about the 650W Cyclone, especially if you add the cooling fins.

 

[ryan]

Assuming I got a 650w kit, what battery and controller options are necessary to complete the challenge?

I'm thinking a Ping 48V 20AH LifePo4. Will that do the trick? Which controller?

(Thanks for all your help!)

 

[deardancer3]

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13814&start=15#p207565

Raleigh Gruv with 360w cyclone, 24v 20 ah Headway LiFePO4 pack, 26" tires comfort feet forward bike. 6 ft 1" rider, normal bike clothes. BMS used for charging only, not for load. Left Pannier removed, battery in Right rear basket.

305 lb total load 8% grade. Pack fresh from charger.

No watt/amp meter installed.

this is a stock cyclone motor with internal controller, 14tooth drive on cyclone, internal ~10:1 step down gearbox.
Cyclone motor is installed on the bottom chain line between crank and rear cluster.

Outside temp 55F, slight cross breeze.

start speed 12 mph bike stabilized at 9.5 mph no pedaling; identical results in 2nd (28tooth) and 3rd (24 tooth) rear gears; no red or yellow lights.

In first gear (32 tooth), speed dropped below 7 mph after 400 feet, quit test

<10F rise in motor after 1/4 mile; Pack measured 26.6 v after testing and 15 minute rest.

dick


edit... did a calibrate on the speedo, its 9.3 mph today at 65F degrees, and the motor went up 15 degrees after ,25 miles

 

[kentlim26]

to run a 48v 20hr on a cyclone 650watts cannot work. it needs the 900watts kit to run it happily. If you change your crank gear to 24tooth , and rear wheel 24tooth, your speed is 30km/h. (lowest) 67km/h (highest). to my understand the max speed is reduce to half , it also means power is increase by 2times. Spokes got to check them, if they are too old need to replace a thicker ones.

what i will never recommend is the 24v controller. Please don't buy that one. And the 1000watts / 1500watts motor , the headline controller seem don't match well with 48v controller. it can blow without a reason. the 1000/ 1500 need a kelly controller to run. the 900watts kit+ 48v 20hr lifpo4 is my current set up. it has been running very well. i set my top speed is 53km/h (spoket gear 22tooth)

cheers
k3ntlim

 

[ryan]

Impressive results deardancer3 from a 360W, 24v 20ah setup.

So in your experience, with a 650W Cyclone, what battery & controller would you recommend?

 

[deardancer3]

I am only familiar with 360 and 500w units.

There is a fellow, John Anderson "andrsnj1" over at yahoo powerassist that did Mt Washington on a 30v 500w cyclone.

check with him, I think the climb took 650watt hours. But it was a big hell, and he helped. I dont know the miles and incline, but that says a 24v at 20amp hours will probably do what you want Contact John or google Mt Washington.

d

 

[John in CR]

A 30 mile ride over a mountain pulling a trailer with no regen on the downhill side and only a 1kwh battery sounds like killer pedaling would be required to me. 30 miles on flat ground pulling a trailer is a tall order for a 1kwh battery without significant pedal assist.

John

 

[deardancer3]

A 30 mile ride over a mountain pulling a trailer with no regen on the downhill side and only a 1kwh battery sounds like killer pedaling would be required to me. 30 miles on flat ground pulling a trailer is a tall order for a 1kwh battery without significant pedal assist.

John

John may have a good point, I keep forgeting about your trailer and no pedalling. The trailer with child is going to add ~ 40lbs, plus significant aero drag and some rolling resistance.

 

[ryan]

Adding the trailer would just be a nice option. Not totally necessary.

Also it might help to think of it as a 15 mile trip climbing 3500 ft. I wouldn't need any power for the downhill portions. It's really 1500ft of climbing over 5 miles, then a long break (2000ft downhill), then 2000 ft of climbing (over 10 miles).

Does this put it in the range of possibility again?

 

[deardancer3]

The 500 watt motor with heatsink will do it, battery is just a function of your checkbook and how much you pedal.
Put 20ah on the bike, and 20ah on the trailer.

Better have an AH meter and a motor thermometer to be safe.

my opinion

d

 

[John in CR]

Play around with this calculator to get an idea of the amount of energy needed to get up the mountain. http://www.noping.net/english/ There's no getting around the work required to lift an amount of weight to a certain elevation. The downhill slope will determine how much of it you get back, since as you coast down you give a lot back to wind resistance and braking. I think you're looking at it the right way and the downhills are pretty much just free distance. So you have to figure out your flat road power usage and the energy required to gain the elevation. The energy to get up the hills is the easy part to calculate, as long as you can change to a gear where your motor is running in its efficient range. The flat road wh/mile can vary quite significantly between rigs, but going slower helps tremendously. I think there's a thread in the general ebike section with quite a few examples of members' real world wh/mile.

 

[ryan]

Thanks John. Yes, I've been looking around for a good calculator to help.

Here's another I found, but I can't get it to present any results... http://www.mne.psu.edu/lamancusa/ProdDiss/Bicycle/BIKEcalc1.HTM

Are there other calculators you've found helpful in the past?

 

[Miles]

You could try these:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=538&start=2

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6892&p=119810#p119810