controllers for hall sensored outrunner

[eDahon]

I would like to purchase a Rc airplane motor (Turnigy Aerodrive SK3 - 6374-149kv Brushless Outrunner Motor) such as this one and make a friction drive.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewitem.asp?idproduct=18184

Add hall sensors: http://e0designs.com/prod/sensboard/sensclean.jpg

but cant figure out the best and most reliable way to drive it. I will need relatively low volatge (5s lipo) so can this work with a standard 24v (500-1000w)ebike controller? If I modified the LVC cutoff would it even work with a 5s lipo which is only about 18.5v. I realize the max current rating on the controller would have to be pretty high (say 60amps)

Would really like to use the car esc option but I question if it will work based on what i have read on here. I am most concerned about the braking. I don't know of any way of disabling the brake on a car esc such as this one:

http://www.hobbypartz.com/07e-c-xerun-150a-sd.html

anyone figure out a way of getting around the brake problem. A sensored airplane esc would probably work since these generally allow the brake to be disabled but sensored airplane esc are impossible to find these days.

 

[Thud]

Here is some information regarding lowering the voltage on exichang e-bike controllers
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16651

I suspect you could just use a e-crazyman on 24v
http://www.ebay.com/itm/24V-250W-brushless-controller-for-E-bike-scooter-/260882371745?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cbdcd14a1

After that. Member Lyen builds these formforum members...contact him & he will set you up...
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=16998

That will get you started in the right direction.

 

[Whiplash]

Those are some cool Hall boards! are they tried and tested in RC motor use??

EDIT: Just checked out that site AWESOME stuff!

 

[dontsendbubbamail]

You might be able to glean some nuggets of knowledge from Jeremy’s Electric Boat thread. I believe he was running in your desired voltage range.

What is driving you to the low voltage when there are controllers out there off the shelf that will handle 36V, 48V, and above?

Bubba

 

[eDahon]

So far this is the only option that seems viable:

KBS24121L,50A,12-24V, Mini Brushless DC Controller
http://kellycontroller.com/kbs24121l50a12-24v-mini-brushless-dc-controller-p-1166.html

With the high speed option since the pole count is so high on the outrunner it is not exactly cheap....approximately $200usd

But if it works should be worth it.

 

[gwhy!1]

So far this is the only option that seems viable:

KBS24121L,50A,12-24V, Mini Brushless DC Controller
http://kellycontroller.com/kbs24121l50a12-24v-mini-brushless-dc-controller-p-1166.html

With the high speed option since the pole count is so high on the outrunner it is not exactly cheap....approximately $200usd

But if it works should be worth it.

you can use a normal 6 or 12 fet controller ( e-crazyman or forum member lyen) or as you are running at such a low voltage you could use a cheaper sensorless ebike controller as your rpm will be below 4krpm which there are pleanty on ebay prices from around $20-30, I ran a cheapo 12fet sensorless ebike controller modded for a output current of 70A , The 70A was a error and should have been 40A but i ran this without problems.

 

[eDahon]

At the low voltage I am running I will need to pull a lot of amps to get the power I would like (up to 1000w). I don't think the ebay ones can handle the current I will need to pull...Say 50amps

 

[gwhy!1]

At the low voltage I am running I will need to pull a lot of amps to get the power I would like (up to 1000w). I don't think the ebay ones can handle the current I will need to pull...Say 50amps

I used a ebay controller and soldered the shunt ( as I have said in the previous post ) in error I put to much solder on the shunt and never checked the output, it was only after about 50miles I was not getting the range i would have expected that I checked and it was pulling just over 70A, so you will be loking for around 60A and I think it will be well worth a try to save yourself $100

edit: you will have to work out the lvc to be able to run the controller on such a low voltage but this is not to bad to work out

edit: not sure if this is a sensorless controller but its cheap enough http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/48V-500W-Electric-E-Scooter-Bike-Bicycle-Parts-Motor-Controller-/150848795080?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item231f49f1c8

edit: here is another I think I have played with one of these and they are sensorless http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/48V-500W-Electric-Bicycle-Brushless-Speed-Motor-Controller-For-E-bike-Scooter-/360642762838?pt=UK_BOI_Industrial_Automation_Control_ET&hash=item53f7fbd856

or this one http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/48V-600W-Brushless-Speed-Controller-for-Electric-Bikes-and-Scooters-/320935757877?pt=UK_Sporting_Goods_Scooters_LE&hash=item4ab9430835

 

[eDahon]

Ok great thanks. Now I see what you mean. So you have to modify the shunt to decrease the current. Would be nice if there was a turnkey solution though. If I can get in touch with Lyen maybe he has controllers already modified that would work.

At the low voltage I am running I will need to pull a lot of amps to get the power I would like (up to 1000w). I don't think the ebay ones can handle the current I will need to pull...Say 50amps

I used a ebay controller and soldered the shunt ( as I have said in the previous post ) in error I put to much solder on the shunt and never checked the output, it was only after about 50miles I was not getting the range i would have expected that I checked and it was pulling just over 70A, so you will be loking for around 60A and I think it will be well worth a try to save yourself $100

edit: you will have to work out the lvc to be able to run the controller on such a low voltage but this is not to bad to work out

edit: not sure if this is a sensorless controller but its cheap enough http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/48V-500W-Electric-E-Scooter-Bike-Bicycle-Parts-Motor-Controller-/150848795080?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item231f49f1c8

edit: here is another I think I have played with one of these and they are sensorless http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/48V-500W-Electric-Bicycle-Brushless-Speed-Motor-Controller-For-E-bike-Scooter-/360642762838?pt=UK_BOI_Industrial_Automation_Control_ET&hash=item53f7fbd856

or this one http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/48V-600W-Brushless-Speed-Controller-for-Electric-Bikes-and-Scooters-/320935757877?pt=UK_Sporting_Goods_Scooters_LE&hash=item4ab9430835

 

[eDahon]

Ok so I went with the Kelly KBS24121L,50A,12-24V, Mini Brushless DC Controller. I have the equal zero design hall board and Turnigy SK3 6474 149kv

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=18184

Lastly I am using 5s 5000mah lipo 20c

so I figured out the proper hall signal phase wire combo and the no load current is about 2.5 amps. It runs smoothly if I throttle up slowly but often cuts out at full throttle. I also can brake harshly if I throttle down too quickly. And when it is running near full throttle it hiccups violently and then will run smoothly and then hiccup again. I will then get a fault code on the Kelly controller. It is internal reset error

I was stuck on the fact that it was a problem with my timing or my sensor or board but I have now ruled that out. When I attached the motor to an amped bikes ebike controller with 36v lipo it ran extremely smooth no problems at all. I am now confident that it is a controller problem although I cant rule out the battery although it does seem unlikely particularly at the low current that the motor is pulling with no load and there is no noticeable voltage drop. It is at 19.2 volts

Do you think I have a faulty Kelly controller or is it a setting issue? Or is there any fundamental reason why this controller would not work?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks!

 

[Thud]

Hmmnn.. all I have are questions.
standard or upgraded (high speed version) erpm model?
My 1st guess, the controller has a hardware driven overcurrent controll built in. (this is what we hack on the xiechang controllers....very dangerous for the controller)

Have you played with some programing with the kelly software? start with lowering currents....especialy if there is a motor or phase current option.
Sounds like your timeing is ok, but don't be afraid to start from scratch & re-trace every step. if your hick-uping at high speeds...its a signal that the timing is slow...its a ballancing act
How long are your battery leads?
error 3.2:
May be caused by some transient fault condition like
a temporary over-current, momentarily high or low
battery voltage. This can happen during normal
operation.

These small motors are notorius for generating huge spikes of current in the phase legs
some details that may help (maybe not ):
braid yor phasewires..comonly refered to as "twisted prs" by heavy industrial motor guys....this will fight/cancel inductance in the phase wire runs.

At your voltage, with a 7 pole pr motor, you should be in range of a stock switching speed of the kelly. but the hickups indicate a slow timing setting. as the motor rpms increase the timing needs to advance a tiny bit to keep the switching slightly ahead of the bemf generated in the motor.
its far more a problem on the bench than in real world application under load.

I do not have a kelly controller.....so anything above is pure speculation.
Toolman2 will be the go-to guy utilizing kellys on smaller motors

 

[eDahon]

Seems like it is just going to be finicky timing wise. Either doesn't want to start from dead stop or hiccups depending on the timing setting and things vibrate or move and gets out of whack. Seems to be a pretty good balance at the moment. We will see if it stays in tune.

I was suprised that it worked so well on the ampedbikes controller first time. I didn't check the no load current though. Wish i had and dont want to hook it up again. was a kind of a pain getting it all hooked up as it is still attached to my other bike.

Wondering if the design of the kelly controllers makes it extremely sensitive to timing misadjustments on these hall modified rc outrunners. Think I will play with the settings on the kelly some more.

As for current spikes, seems pretty unlikely but then again what do i know? The no load is staying under 5amps and the controller is rated at 50amps.

Wish there were other controller options. Difficult to find an ebike controller that can handle 50amps and operate between 12-24v. Dont really want to mess with trying to modify one. Sounds like it can be like opening up a can of worms.

Does anyone know what type of controller that amped bikes uses?