Converting a hubmotor to a middrivemotor

Does the 6-bolt interface work for the smaller metric freewheel threads? (M30 X 1.0)

I like this multi-piece adapter, it allows experiments with some of the parts without having to change all of them if the adapter was a single machined part.

How is the "two-flat" bore made? can they be pilot-bored to 12mm, and the end user can bore out to 1/2-inch, or 17mm as needed (buyers can make the hole larger, but not smaller). I think keyways are pretty easy for the end-user to make, but a perfectly centered bore is difficult to do with a hand-drill...
 
crossbreak said:
Just saw these 12T freewheels: They would also be an option. Shaft dia is 15.9mm or 5/8". But: The smaller the sprocket, the smaller the chainwheel. So, to higher the chain force, so the higher the axle load. With the Pedal freewheel 10mm further away from the motor, the shaft loads raise anyway, i wonder if this would be a good idea :?

4G%2012T%20Freewheel%20Sprocket-01.JPG

Are you sure these FW are compatible with 7 speed chain. I thought all the low tooth count FW were BMX only
 
15t freewheel for #25 chain (I could not find it on the taobao. If someone finds, send me the link please.)
If used it in conjunction with the sprocket 80t, then you can assist up to 100 km/h with a normal cadence (~80).

12t freewheel 18mm carving, 1/2' chain.

A few items that may help in the design of low-cost adapter:
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=19745911133
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=19636655622
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=23771540194
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=19671583316
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=23684820152
http://detail.tmall.com/item.htm?id=13923225991

To, crossbreak: what about protection chain?
 
the Shimano spline will be expensive...will at least add $20 per adapter :( I suggest that I make an adapter for the 6-hole interface that takes 5-arm 74 mm or 4-arm 64mm 22-28T chainwheels directly.


Are you sure these FW are compatible with 7 speed chain. I thought all the low tooth count FW were BMX only
The 12T FW is for 1/8 chains..so it's not compatible with derailleur chains...but that is not that bad since we dont need any derailleurs on our pedal chain. The output sprocket that we use with our derailleur is only 2mm thick, so it is compatible with most 9-speed chains. For 11 and 11-speed chains the smallest non-hyperglide sprocket available is sadly 22T 5-arm 74mm :? or has anyone found one that is smaller?

@ SolarRay: The inner dia of the 15T #25 is too small, it wont fit :( But great idea, thanks! With 12T you can have 36/12 overdrive on the pedal side and 28T output sprocket so a "virtual chainwheel" size of 84T with a setup that still has great ground clearance. So no need to go for uncommon 1/4" chains.

Chain protection? You have to built it yourself as long as I dont come up with a product ;) Maybe I can print something on the 3D printer and copy it by molding process...that has to wait till the QBPM conversion runs great. We should talk about a mount for the QBPM before. Spinning Magnets already designed and built one for the which is a very good base, but I'd like to enhance stiffness and make it from alloy instead of steel to save some weight.

@spinningmagnets
Does the 6-bolt interface work for the smaller metric freewheel threads?
Yes. It works for 13T-15T freewheels that use the 30mm x 1mm. The BSA threaded adapter that uses the same holes for 16T-23T freewheels will also be manufactured if there is a demand for that. But since most people want smaller chainwheels and more ground clearance, I doubt that.

How is the "two-flat" bore made?
It is drilled to 9.9mm and then milled using a ~4mm milling head i guess... good point i'll ask
If you would want to use a 5/8" shaft you would grind down your flats with a file till it has the 12mm dia and then widen the hole with a drill till 5/8".


Edit: Some minor issues solved...this should be the final version. One for IGH sprockets and one for 4-arm 64mm sprockets... ups forgot the 4 screws :x
 

Attachments

  • V5_3.png
    V5_3.png
    39.2 KB · Views: 3,935
  • V5_4.png
    V5_4.png
    36.3 KB · Views: 3,932
crossbreak said:
28T output sprocket
For high speed need more power.
For high power need more motor rpm.
For high motor rpm need more gear ratio.
Big pinion gear is not suitable for high gear ratio. :)

I think, the pinion motor gear should be no more than 18t (preferably 15-16t).

As a pinion motor gear, can try to use "fixed gear" gear:
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=20714771746
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=18567594257
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=21349515645
But for 8-10 speed chains will grind off it.
 
No, such a small pinion gear is not suitable. It means that you need a tiny 11T gear on your sprocket cassette to reach common speeds. This does not last the power. You need a larger output sprocket, at least 18T and a cassette that has 13T as smallest sprocket, better is 14T or 15T.

BTW we ONLY use fixed gears as pinion gear/output sprocket , everything else would not make sense ;)

We had this discussion a lot, you will see if you read tho whole topic :mrgreen:

To make this clear: We talk here about the "dual freewheel jackshaft" or "crossbreak style" drive, not the common freewheel crank drive... read http://endless-sphere.com/w/index.php/EBike_Motors_Middrive#Freewheel_Configurations for further info
 
I am glad you modeled the 64-BCD chainring spider, but after some thought I agree with you that the 16T-22T IGH sprockets should be a good choice for what we are doing. I only suggested the possibility of a spider for a larger chainring than 22T because I believe there may eventually be some use for this shaft adapter for other projects.

I like how the design is in several layers. Once I have one, I can experiment with making a DIY steel Shimano spline center, or 74-BCD spider (disc). I am pleased with how my water-jetted parts turned out that I ordered, so I may try this someday.

For the pedaling FW, I think the 13T M30 X 1.0 is best because there is a wide selection of them and they are readily available.
 
Yes, for the 1.38 X 24 threaded adapters, that would be a simpler and easier option. A 22T fixed cog coupled with a 16T freewheel.

For the smaller threaded M30 X 1.0 freewheel that allows a 13T drive, there are no track cogs with that thread, so the adapter interface inside the fixed sprocket could be 1.38 X 24 thread, or Shimano splines, or the three-tab interface for IGH sprockets. All three of these interfaces seem to top out at 22T. This multi-part adapter (coupled by six M4 bolts) allows experiments on one part without needing the manufacture of the other part over again.
 
Are they for 10 or 11 speed chains? Why use expensive special gears if the cheap and good is so near? IGH sprockets can be bought from 16T to 23T in your local bike shop very cheap.

Threaded sprockets have great disadvantages. They are avoided where ever possible. Sadly there are no 13T freewheels that have a common standard other than M30x1 threads. If there where splined ones, I would of course use them even if they would be slightly more expensive. I guess we are agree that the chosen design is the most simple, flexible and cost effective possible. I'm always open to new ideas... but the sprockets you showed are just too expensive and can't be bought in a local bike shop.
 
Agree Crossbreak, they all cost way too much. I just threw out some photos of some standards for possible compatibility/ ideas. Track stuff has traditionally been 1/8 inch thick chain rings. The miche adapter looks like it may fit the igh cogs. The cogs have a few more bumps to hold up possibly better on the alloy hub ring. The phil wood is interesting with the counter bores for added support and head clearance.

I am not 100% sold on the m30 standard. Very limited range. Thinking A rugged narrowed inexpensive free hub style cassette body would possibly be a long term solution for standardization.
 
Agreed. A splined freehub that takes even 11T sprockets and is less than 10mm in width would be awesome ;) Lets see if we can find such a thing. It should be possible, since the downhill people who even use 15mm half axles can use 11T cogs.

Still I see now reason for using freewheels smaller than 13T: They fail too often, chain is waste very fast.
Or bigger than 15T: Uses too much space. To gain a 3:1 pedal to Jackshaft overdrive even with a 16T BSA FW you need a 48T chain wheel. Imagine how that looks If you want a 4:1 overdrive which isn't that absurd.

Got no answer form the factory this morning :? I'll post as soon as I now the new prices and the shipping date


With the chosen design we can have the following gearing range, without using the 4-arm 64mm interface adapter and using only MTB standard chainwheels:

Smallest: 32T Chainwheel, 15T FW, 16T ouput sprocket, 2.13 pedals->jackshaft overdrive, virtual chainwheel size: 34.1T
Largest: 48T Chainwheel, 13T FW, 23T output sprocket, 3.69 pedals->jackshaft overdrive, virtual chainwheel size: 84.9T


when using the 4-arm 64mm interface adapter:
Largest 48T Chainwheel, 13T FW, 28T output sprocket, virtual chainwheel size: 103.4T


What I aim for my QBPM setup: 42T chainwheel, 13T ACS 3/32" freewheel. So we will see with the 6:1 plenatery gear: 42/13x6= 19.38 motor to cranks reduction. At 85rpm crank speed we will see 1650rpm motor speed which is still fine for the Bafang QBPM. I'd like to have a cranks->wheel overdrive ratio of 5 (4 is MTB standard) in highest gear and I want to use a 15T-34T cassette, so I'll use 23T IGH output sprocket. The virtual chain ring size is 74.3T. This unique setup would just not be possible using the common freewheel crank setup.

When using the slowest 34T gear we still see the additional 6/5 increase in gear ratio due the planetary hub gear-> middrive conversion, so we gain a 34T/23Tx6/5=1.77 increase in torque. The QBPM feels like spoked in a 14.65" rim instead of the rear 26" rim. In highest gear, it feels like a 33.22" rim. If we now enter this into the ebikes.ca we can see how it will perform both in highest and lowest gear.

on the flat
file.php


and on a 20% hill
file.php


The highest gear has 47.8% efficiency at 16.4kph max on that hill, the slowest has 79.4% at 22kph. What a huge difference!
BTW, I chose a battery voltage and wind that has 2200rpm no load motor speed, so 2200/5= 440rpm rim-no-load-speed, so the motor runs efficiently at the 1650rpm loaded (thats 75% of 2200rpm). As we can see this still is geared a bit too fast at 80.4% max efficiency on the flat road. With a gearing that has 29" wheel size I gain best efficiency of 82% for this battery-and-motor-wind setup.

file.php

So I should maybe use 20T output sprocket instead of a 23T and a 48T instead of the 42T chain ring to gain the same overdrive ratio.
 

Attachments

  • QBPM setup 13t FW, 23t sprocket.png
    QBPM setup 13t FW, 23t sprocket.png
    30.8 KB · Views: 1,097
  • QBPM setup 13t FW, 23t sprocket, 20% hill.png
    QBPM setup 13t FW, 23t sprocket, 20% hill.png
    30.5 KB · Views: 1,097
  • QBPM 29inch.png
    QBPM 29inch.png
    31.1 KB · Views: 1,097
After a bit calculation, this setup came out... a 14-36T CS-HG61 8/9-speed cassette would also be an option. But at 28€ this is pretty expensive :?

It's mostly the same that I use in my current SWXB drive (44T, 14T FW, 20T output, 13-34T cassette)
file.php
 

Attachments

  • QBPM setup 13t FW, 20t sprocket.png
    QBPM setup 13t FW, 20t sprocket.png
    56.2 KB · Views: 3,828
Just saw that the rear Bafang BPM is better suited for conversion since it has 34mm long axle ends on the left, the front QBPM has only 24mm!!

The whole adapter including sprockets will be 24mm long, so it wont fit the QBPM as a right-side-only drive
 
The BPM axle is a more complex shape than the MAC. More involved to machine a new one from scratch. Perhaps it is possible to use a rear BPM shaft in a Q-BPM? (I like how the Q already has the wires exiting the motor case instead of a hollow axle).

Of course when converting from a shell-drive to a shaft-drive, the motor is already apart, so...
 
Hi Crossbreak

Great work on the power / eff plots.

Agreed. A splined freehub that takes even 11T sprockets and is less than 10mm in width would be awesome Lets see if we can find such a thing.

Will search for a suitable trashed wheel I can steel the hub off of and see if it can be modded easily. If put on a spline shaft you could stack several of them if possible to get them down to 10mm width. :shock: That may be pushing it a bit, but will keep a eye out.

cheers
 
I'm very interested in this conversion and just started to read it all the way through. Thanks to crossbreak and spinningmagnets for sharing your detailed work. I am truly impressed and hope to learn something here.


Count me in for one of those sprocket adapters when the final design is ready for order. I might even take 2 ...
 
Ok great, hope I can ship them next week... which motor do you wanna convert?

@spinningmagnets? Why should we make a new axle? the original one is fine isn't it? I just bought a 15-turn? BPM2 in a local store :? I'd like make a Star->Delta conversion so it runs as fast as the 8T. 8T Models are hard to buy they out of stock everywhere I look. Just wanted a BPM2 to see if there is any difference. I'll upload some pics showing the same details as you did so we can compare

More involved to machine a new one from scratch
When we go this route I'd like to use a 20mm brass shaft with keyway!
 
Whiplash has a BB-drive with an unconverted motor (I guess I should post that option in his thread) so, the Q-BPM would be an option for him...

Just wanted a BPM2 to see if there is any difference. I'll upload some pics showing the same details as you did so we can compare

Thanks!
 
as far as I know whiplash converted his MAC too, but he kept insisting to use his freewheel crank drive in his DIY frame.

BTW the 20mm shaft with keyway was a joke ;) not everything has to be designed from a scratch... the axles lasts and gets rid of its torque even with the 3-5mm steel torque arms in a frame dropout, so our design is already oversize. I like to keep things simple, especially for people who to do this conversion but do not want to spend most of their time in the work shop ;)
 
crossbreak said:
Ok great, hope I can ship them next week... which motor do you wanna convert?


I have a MAC 7T that's already taken apart so that would be the first candidate. Next one would be up for discussion :mrgreen:
 
7T is REALLY fast. I would check for the laminations thickness first when you have taken apart. You will be the first candidate for the 32Tchainwheel/15T freewheel option and 64mm chain ring adapter...didn't know that there is a 7T MAC, but if this is ture you can already buy a 15T ACS 3/32" freewheel :mrgreen:<
 
crossbreak said:
7T is REALLY fast. I would check for the laminations thickness first when you have taken apart. You will be the first candidate for the 32Tchainwheel/15T freewheel option and 64mm chain ring adapter...didn't know that there is a 7T MAC, but if this is ture you can already buy a 15T ACS 3/32" freewheel :mrgreen:<


Ok.. I will start taking it apart further and check the lamination thickness. Need to rig up the coin trick that spinningmagnets posted to separate the magnet ring from the stator; I got tired of fiddling with it to get the alignment right and put it to the side. Time to pick back up! :D
 
Back
Top