Cooling fans inside Hub motors

Finally got everything working after 6 times of having to remove and open the motor for problems. I think everything is just perfect now after constant modifications. Took lots of things going wrong to finally get there.

Here are the findings.

It does work. Having the fan on full power (Haven't tried it on lower yet) will allow me to drive as hard as I want without overheating above 90C in the summer heat. Without the fan I would easily go over 100C and need to slow down in no time, especially after the motor fully warms up. LIke I said in the past it wasn't worth driving after 10 miles (~900 Watt hours) as the motor would push above 100c in seconds and not be able to cool off even after sitting for 20-30 minutes.

Driving hard I will usually peak around 82-85C with fan on maximum, this is full throttle off/road riding with hills, I push 6000 watts and drive hard. Driving slower it will peak a lot lower.

Of course if I full throttle it up a very steep hill continuously it will probably overheat, I don't think anything can prevent that. Well, maybe with an extra EDF fan it possibly could.

The hotter the motor gets the quicker it cools. For example, it will quickly cool the motor from 100c to 65c, then the rate of cooling will slow up. What I think is happening is the windings get quickly cooled off and then it takes time to cool down the aluminum stator. Around 60C the air coming out of the motor isn't that hot. It is not like the air coming out at 90C which is burning hot. Remember, I already drove the motor without the fans for miles and fully heated the stator up. It will take time to cool the stator off. The air passes through the windings much more efficiently than the stator.



I can make this even better I think with some simple modifications. Especially to help cool the stator quicker.

I opened up the motor hot once after 30 minutes of cooling(no fan cooling) and noticed the aluminum stator in the center was still hot, you could feel the heat in the center of the motor. To shed this heat inside the aluminum stator quicker into the air I will need heat sinks internally mounted around the stator. I ordered and plan on installing heat sinks around the inside of the stator and this should cool off the stator maybe like 5x or more quicker, as I will be increasing the surface area by a lot!. Not only will this increase the surface area of the stator by multiples, I plan on directing some of the fan air flow through these areas.


Another area which may help is that the hot exhaust air exits near the intake and I can tell the exhaust air is getting pulled to the center and possibly some back into the motor. I am thinking about redirecting the exhaust air so that it shoots out the sides away from the intake holes on the center of the motor cover. Remember my intake and exhaust air are on the same side on the same motor cover. I'm not really sure how much of a difference this will make as I'm sure the air cools a bit before reentering the motor. But the air in front of the motor is hot when the fans are on so it has to be pulling in this hot air.


All in all it works and I met my goals of being able to drive as hard as I want in the summer heat without overheating. Actually it is kind of weird to be able to do this as I am so used to being on the edge of overheating and always needed to make constant stops and had to slow up my pace to let the motor cool down. Really it was useless as even letting the motor sit for even 30 minutes only allowed me a mile or two of riding before I was overheating again.

The EDF does make noise, kind of sounds like a loud computer or server with the fan noise. However, you can 't hear it driving faster than say 15-20MPH.


Electronics are mounted temporary




Holes are drilled small to stop stuff getting inside the motor. Outside holes along the edge are exhaust, all others are intake. I don't see a reason to add bigger holes as the fan does the work of cooling.
 
Nice update Offroader.
Glad it's working well for you.

I think the most obvious way to improve performance further would be to make those holes bigger. Your current holes are waaaay to small IMO.

Since your intake holes are around the inner area of your side cover, they are protected by your disc brake, and the centrifugal force of air on anything getting near that area.
Your outtake holes are near your perimeter, which means they are more vulnerable, however they are blasting out air. In most cases small stuff would get pushed back away. Sure bigger stuff with enough speed behind it will still hit your windings, however it would need to come in at the perfect angle to get around your disc brake, which is highly unlikely.
I'm on my 4th vented hub motor with large holes now. Worst that's ever happened was a build up of dirt/dust over time...and that has nothing to do with the size of the holes.

I say, make them holes bigger. At least 15mm diameter IMO. My current motor has 20mm holes, and I previously used 25 and 30mm without problems.
I think 20mm is the sweet spot as it's about as wide as the windings themselves. :)

Cheers
 
I reassembled my motor and mounted it back on the bike today.
Took it for a quick blast round the backyard and did a quick test of the fans on video.
I got the motor up to about 77C just before starting the video.

Have a look...pretty convincing if you ask me! :)
[youtube]Bw0G3Z1bzx0[/youtube]

I still won't have time for proper testing for some time, but just thought I would throw this out there in the mean time. :)

Cheers
 
When you do test the fans do you first make sure the motor is fully saturated with heat? It usually takes about 5-10 miles before you can really test or the results may be flawed.
 
Offroader said:
When you do test the fans do you first make sure the motor is fully saturated with heat? It usually takes about 5-10 miles before you can really test or the results may be flawed.
Interesting point. I hadn't even considered saturation levels, but I don't think that makes the test flawed...the results still clearly show how fast heat is being removed regardless of saturation levels.

How would you measure motor heat saturation anyway? I mean, if all we've got to go by is the temp we can see at any one time, how would we be able to tell how much of the stator is at that same level?

Cheers
 
Cowardlyduck said:
Offroader said:
When you do test the fans do you first make sure the motor is fully saturated with heat? It usually takes about 5-10 miles before you can really test or the results may be flawed.
Interesting point. I hadn't even considered saturation levels, but I don't think that makes the test flawed...the results still clearly show how fast heat is being removed regardless of saturation levels.

How would you measure motor heat saturation anyway? I mean, if all we've got to go by is the temp we can see at any one time, how would we be able to tell how much of the stator is at that same level?

Cheers

a good way would be to use a power supply (preferably one with adjustable output) attached to the motor phases (controller disconnected) - heat the motor up till it reaches say, 70C, and hold it there till the outer shell starts getting hot/temprature drops off slowly when you cut power (a fast drop in temp means the heat is just soaking into different cooler parts of the motor). then switch on fans and compare it to cooling without fans...

alternatively put in a certain ammount of power to the motor, and see how much extra power (in heat) you can put into the motor with the fans on vs off.... might actually have to do this myself :p
 
Interesting, I was going to ask if there was a way to heat the motor safely without riding to more easily check different ways to cool it.
 
I am going to have to do more testing but it seems that having the motor drilled for cooling makes a huge difference, even without the use of fans. And I only drilled one side.

It is quite puzzling how quickly it drops from 90-70 without the fans on. I wonder if it has to do with the temp probe now in the winding surface and quickly being cooled off near the vent holes in the motor.

I'm going to say that most people probably only need to drill for venting and that would be more than enough.

I need to do more testing, and maybe even tape up all the vent holes to have some kind of comparison. I wonder if it is possible that the air duct blocks the heat coming out of the stator and into the windings on that side.

I also wonder if maybe the temp probe location isn't all that accurate being on the surface of the windings.
 
Hey Blake do you think I need to put cooling in the Cro hub copy running 70 volts and 80amps and do think holes would be just enough or fans as well?

May have to send it your way for some magic :D

Cheers Kiwi
 
kiwiev said:
Hey Blake do you think I need to put cooling in the Cro hub copy running 70 volts and 80amps and do think holes would be just enough or fans as well?

May have to send it your way for some magic :D

Cheers Kiwi

It depends on how much battery capacity you have and how hard you drive to be honest. That voltage and amps is what I use and I will start to overheat in about 6-10 miles with hard use in a sealed motor.

If you only have say a 1000 watt hour battery pack then you probably don't need to drill holes, if you have a 2000 watt battery pack then probably.

I would just drill holes like I have around the edges and some in the center and that seems to make a huge difference compared to a sealed motor.
 
Offroader said:
I also wonder if maybe the temp probe location isn't all that accurate being on the surface of the windings.
If it's securely fastened to the windings and shielded from air on the other side so it reads their temperature and not the air temperature around it, it should reliably measure the winding temperature at that spot.

However, the windings will heat up and cool down relatively quickly compared to the stator laminations and such, at least on their outer exposed areas. If you could get teh sensor down between the windings and the laminations, or in between the windings of two stator teeth, you'd probably have a more "steady state" temperature reading that ramps down slower, reflecting better how well teh cooling works as a whole.

Or put sensors in several places, and watch them all at once and see how different areas cool. :)
 
amberwolf, I guess the question is how hot can these motors get?

Is it mostly a concern for the magnets? If that is the case then does it really matter if the stator and internal windings get really hot as long as you keep the magnets from getting over say 150c.

I have already heated this motor up to melt the epoxy on the magnets so I'd say it was around 150c when I did that. The motor still seems to run as strong as my cromotor I never took higher than around 100 to 110c.
 
Well dam! :!: :x :cry:
I just went for a ride, the fans performed fantastically and let me ride up hills at full power I would never have been able to previously.
BUT!!! My axle started shifting making my rear brake caliper hit my motor side cover bolts (sounded like a train) so I stopped to tighten the axle nuts, but the nuts were already quite tight. I only had a small spanner, so had to use my body weight on my foot to push down hard enough to tighten the nuts and...that stripped the threads on one side. DAM DAM DAM! :x :cry:

I've had close calls before with stripped threads so I already have a 1/2" die for repairing leaned over threads, so I tried that, but it's not good...the threads on the freewheel side axle are fully stripped. :(
My plan at this stage it to try and attempt some thread repair epoxy...not that I hold out much hope, but it's worth a try.
Failing that, I will have to get it pressed out and press in a new axle. The axle in my HS4065 is still good, so I could use that, but I could end up with similar problems with the axle moving under regen/acceleration given the small axle size of 1/2". Alternatively I could buy a 16mm axle from Tench, but not sure how pricy that is and wonder if it's really worth it or if I should just buy a new motor instead.

Anyway first thing to try is the epoxy...hopefully it works and I don't have to worry about all the other options.

kiwiev said:
Hey Blake do you think I need to put cooling in the Cro hub copy running 70 volts and 80amps and do think holes would be just enough or fans as well?

May have to send it your way for some magic

Cheers Kiwi
I think fans would help yes. I was hit 90C once on the ride above, with the fans running and only pushing a max of 50A at 52V, so 70V, 80A would definitely overheat your hub if you want to go up any longer steep hills as I do.
You could always drill cooling holes, see how it goes and what temps you are seeing, then put fans in if you find you are hitting temps too high. That's why I did it. I had previously tried just venting my hub motors, but it wasn't enough. I managed to overheat 2 vented hub motors up small mountains.
If you do decide you want some fans, I would be more than happy to set you up. I've done it a few times now so would like to think I know what I'm doing at least a little bit. :)

Cheers
 
EDIT: Ignore the below; it looks like you already have clamping dropouts...so I don't know why it matters if you have nuts on there or not?

*************
Maybe try making clamping dropouts.

No axle threads or nuts needed. ;)

file.php


whole post (is about several things, clamp built about a third of the way thru the post)
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=67833&hilit=+sb+cruiser+clamp%2A&start=125#p1050001

file.php


It might even stay in place without the clamping bolt.... ;)
 
amberwolf said:
EDIT: Ignore the below; it looks like you already have clamping dropouts...so I don't know why it matters if you have nuts on there or not?

*************
Maybe try making clamping dropouts.

No axle threads or nuts needed. ;)
Thanks for your comments AW.
My dropouts aren't clamping actually. The Stealth Fighter (and Bomber) dropouts use a horizontal slot with axle torque 'blocks' that sit inside cutouts in the swing-arm. IMO it doesn't work...at least long term it doesn't. At first it was fine, but my Fighter is now 3+ years old, and has over 10000km on the clock, and the dropout slots, torque blocks, and everything else is servery worn and I've had constant problems with the axle moving for over 2 years now.
I like the idea of adding on some clamping dropouts somehow, and think it would likely work, but I don't have any welding equipment so I can't do it myself.

I need to keep thinking about it...I'm sure there are other options...I might even buy an underpowered (for this bike) 1500W Leaf motor and do this fan cooling mod again on it. At least a leaf motor would be lighter...the only problem would be getting one with the 162mm wide axle shoulders to fit the Fighter.
The other option would be a MXUS, but again, not sure about the axle shoulder width...that's the main reason I bought this last motor (HS4080) direct from Stealth as I knew it would fit...but at $900 Aud I'm not keen to do that again.

Cheers
 
I have clamping dropouts, but the only thing I found to stop the axle nuts from loosening are nord lock washers. Even my clamping dropout bolts loosened until I used them. Everybody who uses them loves them.

Why don't you try a pair of those?
 
Offroader said:
Why don't you try a pair of those?
I just did!
I only recently bought some nordlocks for this bike. This all happened with a pair of nordlocks on each side!

I think the nordlocks contributed to the stripping of the thread by reducing the amount of thread the nuts were able to access. My nuts were slightly overhanging the ends of the axle with the nordlocks on.

I am still so bummed about the failure...not sure what I'll do yet.
I managed to get it back together with a nut just hanging onto the side that stripped. It should allow me to ride as long as I don't use regen, but it's not a long term solution by any means.

Cheers
 
Does anyone know how many ton press is needed to press out Crystalyte hub motor axles?

Or, is there another way it can be done? I don't mind using a hammer and plenty of blows if I know it's going to work eventually. :lol:

Cheers
 
Hi Blake

I whipped this up today the mobile press, maybe good for taking hubs apart too. I will bring it up on Saturday its 4.5 ton or we can put a bigger jack in :D

what do you think?

Cheers Kiwi
 

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Just taking a second look...I wonder if the stator diameter will actually fit inside? It 'looks' big enough, but can't tell from looking at it.

How wide is it across? And how big is the slot between the 2 top beams for the axle to fit in? It also looks big enough, but again, can't quite tell...my axle is 12mm, but the shoulders are 17mm I think.

Cheers
 
Cowardlyduck said:
Just taking a second look...I wonder if the stator diameter will actually fit inside? It 'looks' big enough, but can't tell from looking at it.



How wide is it across? And how big is the slot between the 2 top beams for the axle to fit in? It also looks big enough, but again, can't quite tell...my axle is 12mm, but the shoulders are 17mm I think.

Cheers

the width is 300mm.

the gap between top beams is 22mm and I think it will have enough height to push new axle into stator I was thinking about welding a large nut on top of jack as a guide for the axle to sit in what do you think?

Cheers
 
kiwiev said:
the width is 300mm.

the gap between top beams is 22mm and I think it will have enough height to push new axle into stator I was thinking about welding a large nut on top of jack as a guide for the axle to sit in what do you think?

Cheers
I think 300mm should do it...I will try and remember to measure tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure it will be fine. I'm not sure what we will use to push against though...the windings themselves probably won't take 4.5T of pressure. Do you have any metal pipe about 25-35mm diameter? I think that would allow us to slide it over the axle to the stator center (around the axle) for leverage when we press it without damaging anything.

The large nut on top of the jack will certainly help I think. Not sure how we would keep it centered otherwise.

Cheers
 
kiwiev said:
Welded nut on jack so do we press axle thru stator or stator off axle?

How long a pipe do you need?

Cheers
Awesome, that nut sure will make it easier to keep things inline.
I think we push the axle through the stator...never done this before so not quite sure.

I just managed to get the bearing off one side on my old motor...the other isn't as easy, so haven't managed to get it off yet.
The axle flange diameter just before the stator is under 30mm, so a 30mm inner diameter pipe would work. It would need to be at least 120mm long to be longer than the axle on one side of the stator.

If I can't get the other bearing off and we need to slide a pipe over that side, we will need a 40mm diameter pipe. But I don't think the axle needs to come out of one particular side so that shouldn't be necessary.

I'm going to leave the current motor assembled and on my Stealth since if we can't get the axle off my old motor there's not point disassembling it to change them over. I think I can still use the Stealth as a commuter if I don't use Regen, which is real handy if my other commuter E-bike fails.

Cheers
 
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