CYC PHOTON

[raylo32]

There are only 3 assist levels for each main mode. The display pretends to let you change that to 5 or 9 but it doesn't do the math right to ratio the assists across the levels, so it is kind of a crap shoot. You really don't need many levels with a torque bike anyway. 9 are waaaay too many. So, just pick a level and pedal harder or easier and the bike responds, unlike a PAS bike where you need to shift levels a lot to change speeds or effort.

The way photon works you have a Street Mode where level 1 gives you maybe 150 watts at max human effort, level 3 gives you about 800 watts, and level 2 right about in the middle of that. Then Race Mode does similar but it is more like 270 watts in level 1, 1200 in level 3, and about 700-800 in level 2. But remember those numbers are the max assist, you get less if you are pedal easier. It is all pretty seamless.

I think this motor was designed with my riding style in mind. My current set up is a bbs02 on a 700c marin Muir woods commuter while the bbs is doing great it's mileage may be a good excuse to buy the photon. The lighter weight ,build quality ,and hopefully more efficient torque sensing makes it appealing for me . One question I have though is how many assist levels can I set? I like riding my bbs with nine levels and fine tuning the power level to keep my exercise level and speed where I want. I know this will be different with torque sensing.

 

[hindesite]

There are only 3 assist levels for each main mode. The display pretends to let you change that to 5 or 9 but it doesn't do the math right to ratio the assists across the levels, so it is kind of a crap shoot. You really don't need many levels with a torque bike anyway. 9 are waaaay too many. So, just pick a level and pedal harder or easier and the bike responds, unlike a PAS bike where you need to shift levels a lot to change speeds or effort.

The way photon works you have a Street Mode where level 1 gives you maybe 150 watts at max human effort, level 3 gives you about 800 watts, and level 2 right about in the middle of that. Then Race Mode does similar but it is more like 270 watts in level 1, 1200 in level 3, and about 700-800 in level 2. But remember those numbers are the max assist, you get less if you are pedal easier. It is all pretty seamless.

I do similar but with lower power levels, but set the throttle at higher power to give an easy to apply boost when required, without the need to change levels. 3 levels is actually fine for solo riding off road, you don't need to match anyone else's speed. I'm seldom in a hurry anyway.

 

[hindesite]

These guys apparently have an expectation... unrealistic, IMO... that you should be able to go at 100% power constantly and indefinitely, like the fake pedaling BBS throttle jockeys. That is not what these motors are made for and that's fine with me. With torque sensors these are pedelec bikes to be ridden on varied terrain. Like my typical road rides of about 30 miles with 2000 feet of climbing. Not a challenge for Photon at all even averaging well over 20 MPH.

TBH if many people started riding at high power levels and speeds where I usually ride, we'll likely be banned from using custom ebikes completely. Photon is discrete and quiet enough to escape being noticed.

 

[raylo32]

Around here the off road is technical rocky rooty single track so I am limited by terrain, even when riding my pedal bikes. IOW you don't need a lot of motor power in the first place and you can't really go crazy fast without hitting a tree or auguring in. But I am mostly a roadie and out on the open country lanes you can use as much as you have or as much as you want. Keeps you cooler on the steep climbs in the hot and humid summer, too.

TBH if many people started riding at high power levels and speeds where I usually ride, we'll likely be banned from using custom ebikes completely. Photon is discrete and quiet enough to escape being noticed.

 

[steve s]

There are only 3 assist levels for each main mode. The display pretends to let you change that to 5 or 9 but it doesn't do the math right to ratio the assists across the levels, so it is kind of a crap shoot. You really don't need many levels with a torque bike anyway. 9 are waaaay too many. So, just pick a level and pedal harder or easier and the bike responds, unlike a PAS bike where you need to shift levels a lot to change speeds or effort.

The way photon works you have a Street Mode where level 1 gives you maybe 150 watts at max human effort, level 3 gives you about 800 watts, and level 2 right about in the middle of that. Then Race Mode does similar but it is more like 270 watts in level 1, 1200 in level 3, and about 700-800 in level 2. But remember those numbers are the max assist, you get less if you are pedal easier. It is all pretty seamles

 

[raylo32]

Yes, this is the way to go for sure. I only use throttle for the odd startup boost or for a good high speed run on the flats so want full throttle power available regardless of level.

I do similar but with lower power levels, but set the throttle at higher power to give an easy to apply boost when required, without the need to change levels.

 

[Mongo]

Well, that took a while ...

For the second Photon motor, the date ordered to date delivered duration will be 11 weeks, barring shipping delays.

And if another vendor comes through (promises, promises), I'll configure the motor with a CYC 500C display.

 

[sysrq]

These guys apparently have an expectation... unrealistic, IMO... that you should be able to go at 100% power constantly and indefinitely, like the fake pedaling BBS throttle jockeys. That is not what these motors are made for and that's fine with me. With torque sensors these are pedelec bikes to be ridden on varied terrain. Like my typical road rides of about 30 miles with 2000 feet of climbing. Not a challenge for Photon at all even averaging well over 20 MPH.

Agreed, since Discord conversations are increasingly starting to address the CYC Photon size and heat issues. Someone on YouTube said that CYC Photon is made more for a slow technical offroad riding in a big granny gear (then overheating shouldn't be an issue). Every type of motor can be tweaked to suit individual needs but some motors might be better suited for hilly long distance commuting depending on ever changing requirements.

 

[raylo32]

Photon will have no problem with hilly long distance commuting, assuming you will be pushing the pedals a bit. I don't commute but all I do is fast hilly road rides in the 25-40 mile range and it eats them up. The only choice you need to make is how much exercise and sweat you want. Yes, if you pushed it to 1200 watts constantly it might overheat, but you can't ride that fast and pedal to pull that many watts... and under throttle the speeds you reach will be too high for most scenarios. Even in street mode limited to 800 watts you will be spun out on the pedals at 25-30 MPH without working up a sweat if that's what you want. Those Discord clowns are undoubtedly throttle jockeys, not cyclists.

Agreed, since Discord conversations are increasingly starting to address the CYC Photon size and heat issues. Someone on YouTube said that CYC Photon is made more for a slow technical offroad riding in a big granny gear (then overheating shouldn't be an issue). Every type of motor can be tweaked to suit individual needs but some motors might be better suited for hilly long distance commuting depending on ever changing requirements.

 

[Mongo]

A test of semantics, if I may. My understanding is that the Photon's controller, unlike a stock Bafang BBS or Tongsheng TSDZ2 controller, limits or rolls back current once the high core/controller temperature cutoff points are reached - is my understanding correct?

I'd not call this condition overheating if the controller rolls back the current to protect the motor - instead, it reached its safe thermal limit and the controller did the right thing.

The word "overheating" implies to me potential damage and/or shortened operating life.

 

[raylo32]

Agree, that's my understanding of how it is supposed to work, too. I haven't been able to make it do that yet. But I suspect riding at high assist and full throttle, especially up hills, will get you into that protective mode. I have hit some long hills hard in high assist while pedaling and not reached those temps.

A test of semantics, if I may. My understanding is that the Photon's controller, unlike a stock Bafang BBS or Tongsheng TSDZ2 controller, limits or rolls back current once the high core/controller temperature cutoff points are reached - is my understanding correct?

I'd not call this condition overheating if the controller rolls back the current to protect the motor - instead, it reached its safe thermal limit and the controller did the right thing.

The word "overheating" implies to me potential damage and/or shortened operating life.

 

[sysrq]

I've got mine unrestricted and haven't run into thermal throttling yet. Highest I've seen was 80° and that was hauling a trailer full of camping stuff up a moderate hill (I'd guess 6-7%) at a decent speed (around 25km/h). I can't wait to try it on the 23% grade nearish me. Hope it works out for you. Let us know either way.

A test of semantics, if I may. My understanding is that the Photon's controller, unlike a stock Bafang BBS or Tongsheng TSDZ2 controller, limits or rolls back current once the high core/controller temperature cutoff points are reached - is my understanding correct?

I'd not call this condition overheating if the controller rolls back the current to protect the motor - instead, it reached its safe thermal limit and the controller did the right thing.

The word "overheating" implies to me potential damage and/or shortened operating life.

BBSHD is said to reduce power to 350W only when the controller temperature reaches 100°C as far as I can remember from what I have red today.

 

[Mongo]

BBSHD is said to reduce power to 350W only when the controller temperature reaches 100°C as far as I can remember from what I have red today.

Thanks, @sysrq - I've not read that anywhere, at least for the stock Bafang software. AFAIK, the BBSHD has both controller and core temp sensors readable by the controller, it would be a shame (no, stupid) for the firmware not to utilize the data.

The open source bbs-fw is said to, "decrease motor power gradually when approaching max temperature (75C)".

 

[moped-dan]

I got a photon yesterday and have 30 miles on it now. I put it on my Surly Ogre to replace a BBSHD.

It took some tweaking and playing with the app, but the bottom line is it rides very similar to my Bosch speed gen 4 commuter bike.

Pros:
- Almost silent
- Torque sensor (obviously)
- Easy install

So so:
- App / programming. Tons of options which is nice, some small things are broken or don't work though. Example; I tried 2 wheel magnets and couldn't get it to work correctly. Lots of options to tune the torque sensor which is awesome.

Cons:
- Probably not for heavy throttle only users
- Can't change the overrun in the app as far as I can tell. AKA when using torque sensor and I stop pedalling it runs a hair longer than my Bosch which can impact gear shifting.

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

Reduce power ramp time to 5 or lower if motor reduces RPM too slowly once you stop pedaling.

You may also reduce torque sensor sensitivity to 5 as well.

 

[hindesite]

I hope that magnets won't peel off like on CYC PRO GEN3 due to high temps

I thought the Photon was an outrunner rotor?

 

[richj8990]

I thought the Photon was an outrunner rotor?

ROTOR CORE & MOTOR​

With mechanically retained magnets inside the CYC motors, they are designed to reach high RPMs without failing under heat stress.

Not only are the magnets mechanically secured but CYC used high grade quality magnets that can withstand up to 180 degrees Celsius. Much more than the motor will reach during your ride allowing for ease of mind during any conditions.

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Looks like they are internal.

On a different note, one of the purchasers on a different site was complaining that the only issue after about 120 miles with this Photon motor is that the drive chain keeps falling off at high torque. TELL ME ABOUT IT!!! (I have a different double-chained mid-drive). I think the mounting brackets flex way more than people realize on these dual-chained setups. It's really the Achilles Heel for them. I'm thinking of buying the Photon later but then I may have the same problem...

Close to just saying screw it, buying some $300 aluminum frame and a BSS02. At least that's a solid connection between the motor and bottom bracket, and just one chain. Someone else on here was also complaining that the 1680W Cyclone was flexing the mounting brackets too. It looks like a real pattern with these setups. If it's on pavement you can feel something going on with the chain or drivetrain a couple seconds before the chain pops off. It will often move the tensioner as well so it can free itself off the chainring or sprocket.

 

[sysrq]

Does torque sensor on CYC Photon feels like a TSDZ2 where on the first 3 settings it feels like it makes pedalling harder than without any assistance and on Turbo setting it feels like a cadence sensor with only difference that it doesn't respond when not putting any pressure on the pedals?

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

Does torque sensor on CYC Photon feels like a TSDZ2 where on the first 3 settings it feels like it makes pedalling harder than without any assistance and on Turbo setting it feels like a cadence sensor with only difference that it doesn't respond when not putting any pressure on the pedals?

it depends how you setup in the app.

 

[raylo32]

I don't get significant overrun. Certainly less than my X1 Pro Gen 2 with BAC 850 controller.

Cons:

- Can't change the overrun in the app as far as I can tell. AKA when using torque sensor and I stop pedalling it runs a hair longer than my Bosch which can impact gear shifting.

 

[raylo32]

Strange question that gives bad information. My experiences with TSDZ2 (and Photon) are nothing like that. The torque sensors work very well, IMO, and the 3 levels for Photon (and whatever number you have set up in TSDZ2 OSF) give proportionally more assist... and certainly never feel like a PAS bike in any sense.

Does torque sensor on CYC Photon feels like a TSDZ2 where on the first 3 settings it feels like it makes pedalling harder than without any

 

[moped-dan]

I don't get significant overrun. Certainly less than my X1 Pro Gen 2 with BAC 850 controller.

Good to hear. The bosch is very quick so maybe I am spoiled by that. I also played with the app more and adjusted some settings that were mentioned so I will test it out this afternoon.

Does torque sensor on CYC Photon feels like a TSDZ2 where on the first 3 settings it feels like it makes pedalling harder than without any assistance and on Turbo setting it feels like a cadence sensor with only difference that it doesn't respond when not putting any pressure on the pedals?

No, its really nice as others have mentioned.

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

I wonder what type of torque sensor does photon use?

E-Bike Torque Sensor Technology Comparison

How does different torque sensor technologies compare for e-bike/pedelec application? What is the best solution today and in the future?

sensitivus.com

 

[raylo32]

I am sure it is a one-off design made just for Photon. But it would be interesting to know if it is strain gauge or whatever technology. It has to be a better design than TSDZ2's crudity... but that actually worked well for me, too.

I wonder what type of torque sensor does photon use?

E-Bike Torque Sensor Technology Comparison

How does different torque sensor technologies compare for e-bike/pedelec application? What is the best solution today and in the future?

sensitivus.com

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

I hope it is more durable than torque sensor used in STEALTH GEN1

Mine died about 2 weeks ago after ~4000km (1 year of use). First torque sensor died (pas stopped working)

You can even hear odd cracking noise when I pedal

then a week after that cadence sensor went crazy